From: JOSEPH MAX Area: MagickNet To: RAINLAKE 24 Sep 94 08:36:00 Subject: Magick Versus Religion UpdReq -=> Quoting Rainlake to Joseph Max <=- -> Well, we weren't talking about _religion_, we were discussing efects- -> technique. I don't consider magick a religion -- it is an Art and a S -> Some (most?) practitioners tend to make a religion out of it, but I d -> think it's necessary. "Magick" and "Mysticism" are _not_ the same thi -> Perhaps some clarification is in order. -> action and deliberation! I guess your confusion arises because I thou -> that part was obvious. Ra> You may have missed part of the background for this, I think...I was Ra> speaking about specifically religious magick in an earlier part of the Ra> exchange, and about some life issues it raises. Maybe I assumed you'd Ra> seen that, maybe I just hadn't entirely shifted verbal gears. Oh well. Ra> But I'm in no way "confused" (with all respect, bro', there are Ra> politer ways of phrasing your disagreement!:->)--certainly not about Ra> the distinction between magick and religion. In fact, I get flak for Ra> how stoutly I defend it in discussions of Tantra. I apologise for any impoliteness, but I guess the subject of intermixing transcendental (religious) and magickal philosophies is one of my "buttons". As a magician, I am profoundly opposed to religion. I see them as two mutually exclusive modes of thought. This is not to confuse "spirituality" with "religion". Religion is by nature a practiced ideology, and the main products of any ideology are repression and corpses. Religion invariably involves worship of deity, and subjegation of the Will to a "higher power". In order to folow the path of Magick, one must accept that there _is_ no higher power, no loftier goal, than to do one's Will in the world. Otherwise one severely limits one's possible expression of the Magickal Self. To me, this is the antithesis of what Magick is about: the elevation of the Magician to being hir own God of hir own Universe. I get the feeling you know what I mean, though you may not express it in such forceful terms. I missed your comments about it in Tantra, but if I catch your drift, then you understand. Of course, my above statements will likely bring down the wrath of the religious upon me, but oh well -- I'm tough. I can take it ... Ra> Incidentally, I saw another post of yours earlier in tonight's Ra> read-thru, so instead of going back and finding it, let me just Ra> ask you here...do you really believe no one who has survival-level Ra> money problems is an adept? And where does that leave those of us with Ra> serious disabilities neither medicine nor magick can change? Of course not, I've had my share myself. But someone who is constantly in such a state and finds it impossible to function effectively in the real world at all (part of which is the financial world) due to lack of ambition or common sense is an unlikely "adept" no matter how much Kabbalistic theory they've memorised or how many "dream quests" they've gone on. The measure of one's magickal abilities is in how one deals with that which life brings you. Life may bring you money problems; the point is not that they happened, but how they were _dealt with_. The kind of ersatz "adept" I'm talking about is the kind that does _nothing_ to deal with these or other problems in their lives, and uses the excuse that they are "unconcerned with such mundane matters." If one has attained the level of incarnation required to be a magickal adept, it is axiomic that they will be possessed of a certain level of common sense, talent, and intelligence. Otherwise I would say that they are here in this incarnation to do some other task than be an adept. Sorry if this makes me sound like an elitist, but I am. I don't think the path of Magick is one that just _anyone_ can follow, at least not to the level of Adepthood, any more than one can become a master painter or musician without a certain inherent level of talent. Here's a useful metaphor: have you seen the film "Amedeus"? Let's grant that Mozart was a musical "adept". His adepthood was a spontaneous expression of his Divine Genius in that realm. He had his money problems, but only when he was lazy -- he certainly _could_ make enough money to survive using his natural "adept" talents when he was motivated to do so, and he invariably did so when he had to. Salieri, on the other hand, had studied and studied and even was more accomplished financially, but he envied and hated Mozart for having an natural adepthood that he had to work so hard to attain - and _still_ never attained the level of Mozart's genius. So like Mozart, a true adept should be able to use hir talents in magick the way Mozart could with music, to achieve a survivable income. If one can't at least do that _somehow_, it seriously calls into question whether or not one should be considered an adept. A Sufi adept is required to go out into the world to learn a marketable skill, for making a living in the real world is considered part of their magickal training! There are many people with serious physical disablities who distinguish themselves in other ways and make a living at it. It didn't stop Steven Hawking, now did it? Ra> Hmmm, didn't think I could answer all of msg. at once...must be the Ra> Swedish coffee! :-}======================= All hail Caffenia, Goddess of the Holy Bean! Let us chant her sacred mantra: "BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ...." ... "PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWERS...!!!...Itty bitty living space!" - Genie ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: JOSEPH MAX Area: MagickNet To: ALL 24 Sep 94 08:36:00 Subject: Chaos Magick FAQ UpdReq Chaos Magick - Frequently Asked Questions Sheet version 0.9 (This FAQ sheet is currently under construction. Any suggested additions should be sent to ashton@netcom.com of max@tatertot.com - CHOYOFAQUE!) * * FAQ #1 - What is Chaos Magick? * * "The Lords of Chaos are the enemies of Logic, the jugglers of Truth, the molders of Beauty" - Hanafax from _The Knight of the Swords_ by Michael Moorcock --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chaos magick is one of the newest and currently most popular inspirations among modern-urban-techno-shamans. This is the cutting edge of ceremonial magick. It involves more spontaneity and attempts to integrate shamanism a little more directly. It is influenced by cyberpunk, modern physics, psychedelia, Freud and Jung (synchronicity), Austin Osman Spare, Chaos science, Taoism, Tibetan Buddhism, Thelema, many forms of shamanism, Gleick and fractals, and a host of writers - many of them science fiction writers. Chaos magick groups are usually small assembleges of peers, and the larger organizations tend to be wracked with schisms and break-ups. Some of the more or less stable groups still active include the Magical Pact of the IOT (founded by Peter Carroll), The AutonomatriX (an IOT splinter group), and TOPY (Temple ov Psychick Youth). Spare was not the first to practice this sort of magick, but he was the first to call it Chaos. He was one of the first to bring it to the ceremonial genre and therefore "legitimize" it. There is a direct connection between chaos and cyberpunk genres, and many if not most chaos mages have cyber connections. - AsHtOn tHe UnSuBtLe ashton@netcom.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Those who would rather therorize and mull over points of law; Those who slime their way through a degree system for status; Those who hoard their moldering secret initiation rituals; Those who only believe what The Order tells them; Those who have The One Right Way; Please do not bother the Chaotes ... For they are unsubtle and quick to laugh ... And their laughter is a most frightful weapon! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "...if you want a one-line definition with which most Chaoists would probably not disagree, then I offer the following. Chaoists usually accept the meta-belief that belief is a tool for achieving effects; it is not an end in itself." -- Peter Carroll January, 1992 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- In Chaos Magic, beliefs are not seen as ends in themselves, but as tools for creating desired effects. To fully realize this is to face a terrible freedom in which Nothing is True and Everything is Permitted, which is to say that everything is possible, there are no certainties, and the consequences can be ghastly. Laughter seems to be the only defense against the realisation that one does not even have a real self. So welcome to the Kali Yuga of the Pandaemonaeon wherein nothing is true and everything is permissable. For in these post-absolutist days it is better to build upon the shifting sands than the rock which will confound you on the day it shatters. Philosophers have become no more than the keepers of useful sarcasms, for the secret is out that there is no secret of the universe. All is Chaos and evolution is going nowhere in particular. It is pure chance which rules the universe and thus, and only thus, is life good. We are born accidentally into a random world where only seeming causes lead to apparent effects, and very little is predetermined, thank Chaos. Reject then the obscenities of contrived uniformity, order and purpose. Turn and face the tidal wave of Chaos from which philosophers have been fleeing in terror for millennia. Leap in and come out surfing its crest, sporting amidst the limitless weirdness and mystery in all things, for those who reject false certainties. Thank Chaos we shall never exhaust it. Create, destroy, enjoy, IO CHAOS! - from _Liber Kaos_ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Tyagi@HouseOfKaos.Abyss.com Subject: Chaotic Order I find it useful to mean by 'chaos' 'that in which does not appear the least hint of order', and by 'order', 'that in which does not appear the least hint of chaos'. The function of definition is the destruction of that which is defined. I see this as the True and Perfect Demon which the pseudo-Kaos-fokes want to put behind them in a swath of fear and loathing. These have abandoned the One True Way of Kaos. Beware! I do not choose to define 'chaos' except in relation to 'order', since otherwise the word becomes meaningless. You can make all kinds of fancy taonesses and university-in-diversitynesses and apply them all day, but it won't compare to the beauty which is absolute orderlessness, total absence of pattern. The ORdeR of K@s uNDeR SATaN (tokus) ===================================================================== * FAQ #2 - How does one become a Chaos Magician? --------------------------------------------------------------------- A Chaos Magickian is a verb. One who is not afraid to push the definitions into experience. One who has rejected restriction and the curse of the greyfaces. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "The Illuminates of Thanateros (IOT) are the magical heirs to the A:.A:. and the Zos Kia Cultis. Independent of ancient dusty books and archaic mystification, the vital elements of many traditions conspire in Chaos Magic to create a living art." - Peter Carroll, from _Liber Null_ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Some would say that anyone who takes up the magickal work as described in _Liber Null_ and has achieved personal initiation could be considered to belong to the "inner" IOT, as one who takes up the practice of Thelema and is self-initiated belongs to the "inner" A:.A:.. Carroll even refers to his own organization as the "outer Order" of the IOT. This outer Order has become The Magical Pact of the IOT, aka The Pact. They, of course, will likely profess to be _the_ one-and-only IOT; that anyone who is NOT a member of The Pact is NOT an Illuminate of Thnanteros, just as the various groups who have called themselves the A:.A:. over the years have done. - Joseph Max, from _Malleus Chaosium_ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From ashton@netcom.com [rant on] I hereby stick my head out of the trenches and declare WAR! The IOT seems to have more excommunicants than useful members. The AX just lost a front man. TOPY declared and lost the info war years ago. Who is in charge here? YOU ARE! It seems as if the world will be owned by the rogues ... We want to do the work ... Not wait for the members to allow us to work. Not wait for the heirarchy to allow us to work. NOT WAIT! We want to do the work NOW! And we will WORK ... and we will support the cost of working ... and we will take the consequenses of working ... and we will rise to work again ... and we will be made stonger by the WORK! My WORK is to gather data and publish ... if it can help in your work, so much the better ... if you would like to conspire, so much the better ... If your work is to rest on your laurels ... then, please, go join an order, and GET OUT OF MY WAY! [rant off] There is death for the dogs ... AShtoN the UnSubtle =========================================================================== * FAQ #3 - Are there any organized Chaos Magick Groups? ___------------------------------------------------------------------------ (The answer depends on your definitions of "Chaos Magick" and "organized"!) This group is open to all beings who have answered the call of chaos. We do not care what organizations you have chosen to give legitimacy to, What degrees you have earned, or What you might have once been. We want to share the work of you, now, here. A system that acquires more degrees of freedom is more chaotic. Which sounds like a worthy goal ... Entropy is having fewer degrees of freedom, approaching a steady state, having less energy. Which sounds quite ghastly ... This is a working group! We are banded together by doing the great work of magick and have joined here to hasten the pandamonaeon! CONTACTS AutonomatriX POB 26362 San Francisco CA 94126. "A Chaotick Guild and WorkNet of Chaotes" Publication: Kallisti Catalyst. (magazine) Illuminati MC Intl POB 9490 Tacoma WA 98409 The Magical Pact Of The Illuminates of Thanateros POB 619 Huntington Beach CA 92648. Publications: _Pseudonomicon_ and _Prime Chaos_ by Phil Hine Thought Crime 23 POB 874 Temple AZ 85281 Temple Ov Psychik Youth - US (Luna) POB 111327 Tacoma WA 98411-1327. or POB 460473 San Francisco CA 94146 Publication: Thee Psychick Bible Temple Ov Psychik Youth - World Nett-work POB 687 Halfway Sheffield S31 5UX UK. Publications: Occulture (L3) and Infernal Templer. Virus 23 Box 46 Red Deer AB T4N 5E7 Canada. ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ... "One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star..." ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Chris L Crane Area: MagickNet To: All 26 Sep 94 20:41:54 Subject: More on Money Magick UpdReq There has been quite an extensive study recently in this echo concerning the subject of money magick. I've loved every message, yet there's something thats been missing throughout the discussion.. and that's more examples of actual rituals, spells, etc. that are used for this subject/purpose. I'd like to here from those versed in the subject or if you have a ritual or spell you use to promote the flow of wealth. Thanks in advance! Blessed Be! 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: MagickNet To: Rainlake 25 Sep 94 09:08:24 Subject: Re: REPLY, PART ONE UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Howdy Rainlake! > Incidentally, I saw another post of yours earlier in tonight's > read-thru, so instead of going back and finding it, let me just > ask you here...do you really believe no one who has survival-level > money > problems is an adept? And where does that leave those of us with > serious disabilities neither medicine nor magick can change? Magick might not be able to cure you, but it *can* do a lot for you! I use a combo of hatha yoga, pranayama, and c.m. ritual, every day whether I think I need it or not , to give me a healthboost. I have a CNS disorder called ILS which I think would fit most definitions of a serious disability, and believe me, I've been broke plenty of times in my life; but I've been steadily been focusing my energies on finding and focusing on things I am able to do, at my own pace, from my home, to support myself and my family, and I'll be danged if it ain't working! ;> That, plus more traditional 'money magick' rituals, has served to take care of our needs, leaving me free to focus on those 'loftier' goals without having to sweat where the rent money's coming from or what to do when they shut off the lights. Good luck 2u, but don't negate the possibilities available thru magick for improving your health and your financial status. :> Love is the law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Perimage Area: MagickNet To: Josh Norton 20 Sep 94 06:23:00 Subject: Descent to the underworl UpdReq JN>Thus said Fir to Josh Norton concerning Descent to the underworld: JN> Fi> Hi Josh! JN>Hello! JN> Fi> You and I have talked about this a little before. JN> Fi> I'm looking at various mythologies for descents into the JN> Fi> underworld. JN> Fi> We've talked a little about Ishtar/Inanna and Persephone/Prosperina. JN> Fi> Are there any others you can think of at the moment? Is there JN> Fi> anything similar in Egyptian mythology? I'm no expert on Egyptian mythology, but I do recall that the Sun God Ra travels through the Underworld each night in his "boat of a million years, accompanied by his sister/wife Bast, the cat Goddess, who fights off the serpent Apep, who continually tries to prevent Ra from bringing the light back to earth for another day. See chapter XXVII in 'The Witches' God," by Janet & Stewart Farrar. B*B PeriMage * OLX 2.1 TD * First, kill all the lawyers, then waste Barney. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718