From: JOSEPH MAX Area: MagickNet To: ROSE DAWN 22 Sep 94 16:58:00 Subject: RE: MONEY MAGICK UpdReq -=> Quoting Rose Dawn to Joseph Max <=- RD> I suspect the answer is "Of course not," but I'll ask anyways: do you RD> have an understandable, communicable personal def' of what separates RD> Chaos magicians from other ceremonial magicians? This is in no way RD> intended as a slam against a whole system of magick, but it *has* been RD> my experience that many folx describing themselves as 'Chaos RD> Magicians' seem merely to be individuals who enjoy shit-stirring with RD> no apparent purpose...or thumbing their noses at any and all perceived RD> tradition just because it *is* perceived as tradition. From your RD> posts, you don't strike me that way, so I was interested in your RD> thoughts. There has to be more to it than simply the fluidness of RD> approach, as I and many other folx--possibly the majority in certain RD> age groups--do define ceremonial magick as a system which should be RD> and *is* intimate, fresh, and ever-growing and changing. Uh-oh. I knew somebody was going to ask this sooner or later. No insult meant or taken, believe me. First the disclaimer -- my personal definition is _personal_; there are as many definitions of "Chaos Magick" as there are practitioners. Over on the Thelema echo I'm already embroiled in a debate over what Chaos Magick means... First off, I assume from your standard salutations you consider yourself a Thelemite. Think of the rep that Thelemites have suffered under for lo these many years. In fact, they were _the_ bad boyz/grrrls of the occult until the Chaotes came along and have somewhat superceded them in that title in recent years, eh? And boy, am I sick and tired of anti-social nilhilists with black leather jackets and haircuts, sporting Eight-Rayed Star tattoos and calling themselves "Chaos Magicians", when the closest they've ever come to magickal practice would be lighting a lot of black candles and screwing to Throbbing Gristle records. Same crowd that used to wear upside-down pentagrams and call themselves "Satanic Witches" or "Black Magicians", but they have a trendier label to use now to pick up groupies at a rave. But, I digress... To be a Chaote requires both a strong discordian streak and a lot of hubris. So of course you see a lot of those types like you describe sporting the label. Keep in mind that if they are for real at all they are likely newbies at magick, and have a typically adolescent chip on their shoulder. I might be somewhat of an exception, as I came to Chaos Magick via a more traditional Thelemic/Hermeitc background. I went through a good bit of "proper" magickal training, which I eventually began to chafe under the restrictions and assumptions thereof. Too much of a heretic, I guess... I don't disparge "traditions" , but I don't feel bound to them, either. Instead I borrow freely from them as need or desire dictates. I'm rather fond of Egyptian styles, and still work a lot with Hermetic imagery and techniques - probably due to my background. Not that I try to homogenize various traditions into a kludged together amalgram, like so many "new age" types are so fond of doing. If I'm doing an Wicca tradition working, I try to stay in that paradigm for that working. If I do a Egyptian ritual, I stick with the Egyptian imagery exclusively (Did a wonderful Egyptian rite last Solstice - an adoration of Amun-Ra - in full ceremonial dress, with all the incantations recited in Egyptian. At high noon in Golden Gate Park, no less!) Grand stellium Leo that I am, I _love_ a good ritual... Tell ya what - I'll go ahead and post a FAQ-Sheet-In-Progress that is being worked on for the USENET group alt.magick.chaos that will give the folks here some "background" on the subject instead of rambling on endlessly here. Stay tuned to this channel... ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718