From: RAINLAKE Area: MagickNet To: JOSEPH MAX 23 Sep 94 02:09:14 Subject: reply, PART ONE UpdReq -> I think the operant reason for using a "wished-for" format in the Sta -> is that for some people, trying to implant a declaration such as what -> suggest might find itself at odds with the subconsciousness's image o -> itself at the time, and therefore be "rejected". If I _am_ sick, and -> to convince my subconscious mind that I'm _not_ in the face of overwh -> evidence to the contrary, it might render the implantation ineffectiv -> Interesting issue, and you have a point Personally, I find that getting deep enough into trance can sometimes get me past some of a "rejection" if i hit one. With something as tough as real chronic pain, that can mean getting down below verbal level for awhile and then coming slowly back up to the levels where self-talk happens. I can't successfully leave either out...which ties in with the "lust of result" answer I gave earlier. -> Would you go so far as to say that being consciously _obsessed_ with -> deriving results from a magickal working is not a hinderance? In my -> experience, it's a subset of Murphy's Law; to whit: when you are seac -> Universe to behave in a certain way to practical advantage. Lusting f -> results _does_ screw up one's magickal workings, believe me. -> I believe it does that *for you*. It simply has not been my experience that including all parts of my mind in the magick screws it up....but then, I'm not talking about obsession or desperation, but about using all my various and sundry mental energies without dividing, dissecting or analyzing them....getting into what you might call "lust of understanding". And *for me* (I can't speak for you), one thing that really COULD conceivably short-circuit the magick would be having a mental list of things I BELIEVE will short-circuit the magick. *For me*, it's important to avoid what we recovering alcoholics call "analysis paralysis": laying such a heavy conceptual grid over a natural, mostly instinctive process that I start to believe in the shape of the grid more than the power of the process. -> Are you saying that by someone can simply learn the "correct" incanta -> and light the "correct" color of candles and chant the words in the -> "correct" order and derive magickal results? Is conscious, deliberate -> all there is to it? I think not... -> Of course not. I said nothing remotely like this. What I did say is that magick made with both the conscious AND unconscious minds, TOGETHER, have been highly successful for me and for most other users of magick I know. -> Well, we weren't talking about _religion_, we were discussing efects- -> technique. I don't consider magick a religion -- it is an Art and a S -> Some (most?) practitioners tend to make a religion out of it, but I d -> think it's necessary. "Magick" and "Mysticism" are _not_ the same thi -> Perhaps some clarification is in order. -> action and deliberation! I guess your confusion arises because I thou -> that part was obvious. You may have missed part of the background for this, I think...I was speaking about specifically religious magick in an earlier part of the exchange, and about some life issues it raises. Maybe I assumed you'd seen that, maybe I just hadn't entirely shifted verbal gears. Oh well. But I'm in no way "confused" (with all respect, bro', there are politer ways of phrasing your disagreement!:->)--certainly not about the distinction between magick and religion. In fact, I get flak for how stoutly I defend it in discussions of Tantra. Incidentally, I saw another post of yours earlier in tonight's read-thru, so instead of going back and finding it, let me just ask you here...do you really believe no one who has survival-level money problems is an adept? And where does that leave those of us with serious disabilities neither medicine nor magick can change? Hmmm, didn't think I could answer all of msg. at once...must be the Swedish coffee! :-}======================= 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: RAINLAKE Area: MagickNet To: KAI MACTANE 23 Sep 94 01:55:28 Subject: magick and religion UpdReq -> I'm with you on that one! Well, so am I...that was a misunderstanding. (See my reply to Joseph.) Your post on his and my exchange is really interesting, and i will reply when I'm well enough...can't do too much in one night right now, or I'm crapped out for days. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Morgan Le Fey Area: MagickNet To: JOSEPH MAX 23 Sep 94 18:17:00 Subject: RE: SIGILS UpdReq JM> -=> Quoting Fir to Joseph Max <=- JM> JM> Sigils are encoded representations of literal ideas -- names, JM> Fi> Hey Joseph! Great post. Thanks! JM>Sank yew. The praise of a '55 Leo is high praise indeed... A '55 Leo? You make Fir sound like a classic auto! Bright blessings, Morgan * QMPro 1.02 41-7560 * !edis gnorw eht no er'uoy ,egassem siht daer nac uoy fI --- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.00F3 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718