From: Thorson Area: MagickNet To: Deep Black 6 Sep 94 02:25:00 Subject: Re: Discussion wanted UpdReq and Deep dicoursed upon Re: Discussion wanted SY> We feel our way in the dark, actually, drawing from a number of D B>SY> traditions--Wiccan, Native American, Celtic, transpersonal D B>SY> therapy, Shamanism. We always begin with a circle-casting D B>SY> involving smudging (covering in smoke) each other with a D B>SY> combination of herbs sacred to the Yaqui tradition; prayers to D B>SY> the Four Directions; then the Charge of the Goddess. We often D B>SY> do shamanic drumming and journeying, and/or have a Talking D B>Stick ceremony. GAIA: This sounds great! There are several groups around here that do the same things... May I humbly suggest that you be sure to release the circle and all energies/elementals attracted to it when you're finished? In some of the groups I've seen this sort of thing done, they don't know that it's as important to *release* (open) the circle as to cast it.... and to invite all energies/elementals attracted to it to "go their way in peace and harmony, and *harm none*!" Gaia written 09/05/94 11:53 --- CmpQwk #UNREG UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: JOSEPH MAX Area: MagickNet To: ROSE DAWN 3 Sep 94 08:00:00 Subject: RE: MONEY MAGICK UpdReq -=> Quoting Rose Dawn to Joseph Max <=- RD> Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. RD> RD> Great stuff.... Sank yew. You clearly "know your stuff", so praise from such as yourself is high praise indeed. RD> I'm sure we've all encountered people who seem to equate poverty with RD> spiritual excellence for some reason--not sannyasis in caves, but RD> Young Urban Magicians who behave as though collecting General Relief RD> is somehow more advanced than busting one's butt to earn a living... No s**t. The spellworking I described was done at a time when I was almost unemployed and broke, but I was still too damn proud to get on G.A. So I hustled instead, but after spinning my wheels for weeks, I wanted _out_! RD> or people who have the potential to pursue interesting *and* well-paying RD> careers, yet sit in dead-end jobs while concentrating their Wills RD> on those 'lofty, spiritual' goals. I've come to the RD> conclusion that those who insist money means nothing have always had RD> enough of it! Or have resigned themselves to being poor and their attutude is one of "sour grapes". RD> I was a mom before I was a magician, and don't like RD> seeing my daughter do without...and I've been *truly* broke often RD> enough to know very well that I can survive on very little. Given the RD> choice, I would prefer not to. ;> Interesting -- my SO and I are to become parents sometime next February (if all goes as planned). I may be corrosponding with you in the future about the subject of raising second-generation magicians. RD> Besides--we YUMmies need enuff cash to pay for our ritual RD> accouterements--so ka? Indeed - semi-precious stones, sweet woods and hammered brass plates (for Enochian tablets) ain't cheap... JM> What do people here think of using magickal techniques in order to JM> gain wealth? RD> I think it's a great idea, personally. I don't consider using magical RD> techniques to gain wealth any more or less ethically questionable than RD> using similar techniques to gain physical health, emotional RD> satisfaction, or spiritual progress. Focusing completely on those RD> 'lofty' thangs to the detriment of one's physical comfort is just as RD> upsetting to the concept of Balance as vice-versa, IMHO. Hear, hear. JM> Money is no longer of the nature of Earth; it is of the nature of JM> Air. JM> JM> Like Air it is ethereal; difficult to grasp and mostly unseen. Above all, JM> likes to _move_. Money in motion replicates itself. Money hoarded JM> slowly dies. Of what use is money that is never spent? RD> Very interesting concept! I think a strong case could be made for RD> Money partaking of the nature of Air; however, I think one could also RD> make similar cases for the other elements. I still associate it with RD> Earth; possibly not for the 'traditional' reasons...but I can RD> definitely see $$-as-Air. You are right of course - the important thing is that one _thinks_ about such things and frames them in a context that is meaningful to _themselves_ and not simply follows the "path of the Secret Ascended Masters of the Great White Brotherhood" just because "that's the _proper_ way it's done, grasshopper..." RD> Concentrating RD> on discovering latent skills, talents, and interests that could bring RD> about an income could well be the way to go for a lot of people--or RD> concentrating on getting rid of blocks to putting those talents into RD> practical action--or doing a kick-ass job on an employment RD> interview--etc. Precisely. A lot of effects magick has to to with psychological engineering. If a spellworking doesn't have a powerful psychological component, it probably isn't going to be very effective. Like your comments about love spells; rather than try to cast a spell on a particular other person to gain their affections, it's far more effective to cast a spell on _yourself_ to make yourself more sexy and attractive. Also it allows your subconcious the oppourtunity to "choose" the partners that are more appropriate to oneself; one's subconscious always has better taste in these things anyway . JM> magickally charged (We used sexual magick techniques for the charging, JM> again demonstrating the age-old link between sex/money/power ) JM> as a talisman. JM> For the next several days, she and I (we were living together) used JM> the bill to _pay each other for anything we did for each other_! JM> She'd get up to answer the phone, and I'd pay her. I'd get her a glass JM> of water and she'd pay me. We paid each other for sex. That dollar JM> bill changed hands several times an hour... RD> I LOVE it. :> In fact, I loved the idea so much, I discussed it with RD> all the VIPs in my circle . My jaded daughter thought it sounded RD> dumb, but she has the minority view. ;> Interesting. Did she have any particular objection, or was it just "dumb?" RD> I could well do something RD> similar in the near future...I'd guess the real power lies more in the RD> fact that you designed the 'program' yourself, rather than anything RD> inherent in 'passing the buck', tho I could be wrong, of course. ;> You could be right -- I would definitely think that any ritual one designs oneself will be more effective. But I do think the nature of a ritual itslef is _also_ part of making it effective, and it's appropriatness to one's own situation. Since this idea seems to have struck a resonant chord in you, it would probably be effective for you too! RD> In my experience, 'tweaked' rituals are incredibly powerful, while RD> i-dotting and t-crossing is more along the lines of 'good magical RD> practice.' "Good magickal practice" be damned. I've seen so many people so hung-up on figuring out what is the "right" phase of the moon or getting exactly the "right" color of Venusian green candles for a ritual that they never get anything _done_! RD> Purdy much what I've been doing, taking basic structures RD> and making them my own. Success is Thy proof! I consider my own RD> tentative money magick experiements to be *eminently* successful. :> There is no more meaningful criteria for gauging "correct" magickal operations than _success_. QED. Be seeing you... J:.M:.555 ... Beware the One True Way. That path leads only to the One True Mistake. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Morgan Le Fey Area: MagickNet To: LORD WART 5 Sep 94 18:17:00 Subject: I MEET THE BEST PEOPLE ON UpdReq LW>Keeper... LW> I was asking you to keep your lady from advertising her preferences; many LW>mundane medical people do not have the attitudes consonant with their oaths LW>of "treating ALL people". Morgan is a wonderful lady; however, my practice LW>is a little far to commute to! Yep, that it is... BTW, what would you recommend for my migraines and seizures? A new friend of mine says that with my seizures what is happening is that the nerves are going into spasms. She said to try "massaging" the nerves and brain. LW> Little one returns your greetings; she wants to come out on the pending LW>Samhain trip to your locale, but I don't think my dear ex-beloved would go LW>for it. Probably not... Hope to see you then... BTW, if you have posted to me personally, I haven't gotten it... accidentally deleted a packet that I shouldn't have and it had Saturday's QWK packet in it. Please resend if need be. LW> Blessings to you, Morgan, and the terrorists.... Quite appropriate description of Tamara and Robert... Hehehehehe! Bright blessings, Morgan * QMPro 1.02 41-7560 * Abandon the search for truth: settle on a good fantasy. --- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.00F3 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Tanim Area: MagickNet To: Lord Wart 5 Sep 94 23:45:02 Subject: You were gone? UpdReq -><- Lord Wart babbled incessantly at Tanim about You were gone?... LW> I just figured you were monitoring, waiting for someone to make a LW> statement or ask a question that you felt you HAD to jump in. (BTW, we LW> all have weeks like this...) Good to see you back; should liven up LW> the neighborhood. I lurk a lot more than I post on PODS...or used to. I kept looking for you to poke your head up here, though. I dropped most of the other echoes...too much mail to wade through when I was really busy & only had a 2400 baud modem. Now I'm running 14,400. Life is good. Also got my reader to quit locking up my computer...after it locked it up really good & made the autoexec.bat and config.sys files disappear into electronic never-never land. That was *so* exciting. Oh, well. This time it's set up my way, not like out of the box. Maybe that's why it works now... I think I'm having one of those *lives*. Liven up the neighborhood? If we're both around, isn't that more like "There goes the neighborhood?" ...Oh--same thing. Nevermind... ;> Let me know which echoes you're hanging around in & I'll start picking them up again. -------Tanim (And I've been dying to find an appropriate moment to use this tagline...) ... Why did CNN cancel that cool "Desert Storm" show? 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: KEEPER Area: MagickNet To: LORD WART 6 Sep 94 21:21:00 Subject: I MEET THE BEST PEOPLE ON UpdReq LW>LW>LW>Keeper... LW> I was asking you to keep your lady from advertising her preferences; many LW>mundane medical people do not have the attitudes consonant with their oaths LW>of "treating ALL people". Morgan is a wonderful lady; however, my practice LW>is a little far to commute to! To say the least it is TOO far! Well you know Morgy she is not one to be subtle! LW> Little one returns your greetings; she wants to come out on the pending LW>Samhain trip to your locale, but I don't think my dear ex-beloved would go LW>for it. Would love to meet her, how old is she and is the ending from her? BTW hope all is still in one piece when you get here, it is definitely not what you left. LW> Blessings to you, Morgan, and the terrorists.... Thanks and the same to you and yours. LW> Blessed Bee LW>adjosijfwaejfififcjwofljsl/dmc/lsdnc/lksnc/lknsdl/kcnsd/cnslcnnd got it. LW> LORD WART. May the Gods smile on you in everything you do! VES HEILL Keeper ___ QMPro 1.02 41-7560 */ \* <- Tribble Olympics: Fencing. --- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.00F3 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Mike Ruiz Area: MagickNet To: All 7 Sep 94 19:05:38 Subject: Positive UpdReq *******************A T T E N T I O N************************ NEW MAGAZINE SEEKS photo-journalist, artists, and writers of news commentary, fiction, poetry, and any topic with a POSITIVE angle. And that's the catch . . . to show the positive aspects of the world, no matter how negative it may appear, through positive words and images. And please contact us even if your not a writer or artist and give us some feedback, you'll get a free copy of the magazine if you do! If you would like more info contact: AK Publishing & Design P.O. Box 463 San Gabriel, CA 91776 or leave E-Mail or a message @ 1:102/943 Mike Ruiz 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Sewa Yoleme Area: MagickNet To: Deep Black 6 Sep 94 02:48:50 Subject: Re: Discussion wanted UpdReq Deep Black-- SY> We feel our way in the dark, actually, drawing from a number of SY> traditions--Wiccan, Native American, Celtic, transpersonal therapy, SY> Shamanism. We always begin with a circle-casting involving smudging SY> (covering in smoke) each other with a combination of herbs sacred to SY> the Yaqui tradition; prayers to the Four Directions; then the Charge SY> of the Goddess. We often do shamanic drumming and journeying, and/or SY> have a Talking Stick ceremony. DB> That sounds wonderful! Did this just form spontaneously or was there DB> a central person(s) who acted as the "attractor." Um, I guess I'm the central person in question. This group has as a core a few folks who were part of a book-and-general-spirituality discussion group with me a few years ago, but with some newcomers as well. I seem to be the leader most of the time, though one of the women in the group has been taking more and more of a leadership role of late, which is wonderful. I see her as sort of a non-Wiccan high priestess: a powerful woman in whom the Goddess is clearly present, though not yet sure of her own gifts. And while I'd rather each of the group members would take turns as leader, it usually defaults to me. I'm glad to take the responsibility, but I want others to live into their gifts as well. DB> The particular paradigms that you listed as forming the skeletal DB> framework (in that I understand that it is nigh impossible to convey DB> the richness of participation) are ones very close to important DB> portions of my "way." You're right--it is very difficult to convey the richness. One of the central facets of our gathering, interestingly enough, is our meals together, which begin each gathering. We are all quite fine cooks, and we are constantly surprising and delighting each other with our culinary prowess. We felt a little guilty over the great sensual pleasure we take in these dinners--and that they sometimes seem to overshadow the ceremonies themselves--until we realize that this is part of the Goddess' charge (at least, if we understand that she's inviting us to embrace the sensual and the physical and celebrate it as well as spirit). We recognized that our meals are in fact rituals, albeit less ceremonial ones--and that we needn't shy away from our delight in them. At the same time, we have built up a tremendous amount of trust in each other in a short period of time. I saw one of the women in the group take another to task for some position she was taking; the challenger spoke directly and forthrightly, but gently and without rancor. And the woman who was being challenged listened carefully, considered what she had heard, and changed her position somewhat. It's what's *supposed* to happen everywhere, but rarely does--so much so that it shocked me by its newness, bespeaking the trust level we have reached with each other. DB> If you feel like it, I'd like to hear more about your group and its DB> practices. One problem is that we're still feeling our way in the dark. We want an even stronger ritual life, but we are adamant that it be authentic to our own spiritual sensibilities--not just borrowed without thought, nor stolen from a rich tradition without recognizing the depth and breadth of that tradition. We are all very much students--though I have found that we are all teachers as well: when we've participated in rituals presented by high muckety-mucks (high priests or priestesses, leaders of movements, etc.), we've been struck how rich (and professional!) our ceremonies are by comparison. We really seem to know what we're doing, and we're doing it all intuitively. It's exciting, but somewhat nerve-wracking. I wish we could move on into more challenging stuff a little more quickly, but we also don't want to sacrifice the comfort level we've achieved. So it goes. Thanks for asking. I'd be glad to hear your reactions! Pax tecum! Maito Sewa Yoleme ... Vision is the art of seeing things invisible. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: JOSEPH MAX Area: MagickNet To: CHRIS LEE 5 Sep 94 09:35:00 Subject: Sigils UpdReq -=> Quoting Chris Lee to Joseph Max <=- CL> ... can you give me a CL> good definition (anyone) of what sigiling is??? obviously its CL> not in the dictionary.. at least, not in the one I have.. CL> This subject facinates me beyond belief. I'm ready to experience CL> it. Sigils are encoded representations of literal ideas -- names, images, statements of desire, etc. There are several ways to derive sigils from words. Traditional methods involve converting letters into numbers (as in numerology) and then using _kameas_, such as 'magic squares' (grids like tic-tac-toe boards with numbers in each square that add up to the same value when summed horizonaly, verticaly or diagonaly - any good book on number games will mention them), or traditional number "grids" like the goetic Rose Cross circle and "connecting the dots" obtained from corrosponding letter/number positions. Many books on ceremonial magic outline these methods, such as _The Golden Dawn_ by Israel Regardie or _Mysteria Magica_ by Denning and Phillips. IMNSHO, it doesn't matter what method you use to derive a sigil as long as you feel comfortable with it. The method I use was originated in the early 20th century by British magician Austin Osman Spare and involves three parts: rendering a Statement of Desire into a sigil, charging the sigil, and then losing it to the conscious mind. Coming up with the statement of desire is by far the most important part. It must be short, unambiguous and to the point, and contain no "negatives" - ie. "I wish to be healthy" instead of "I wish to not get sick". Be sure there is only one possible way to interpret the sentence- the way you _mean_ it. The first part involes three steps. First is writing out a statement of desire such as : I WISH TO OBTAIN A NEW JOB and then striking out all the repeating letters. With this example the result would be: I W S H T O B A N E J then assembling the letters themselves into a combined glyph or pictogram. (It's really hard to demonstrate this with ASCII, but here goes:) /| /^\ | | /--|/___\-----/ /~~\ | | |/ \__/\_| \ / Pretty crude, but maybe you get the idea. There are no hard fast rules to how to do this, except you should be able to make out all of the letters in the combined glyph, even if they "double up" ie. 'W' is 'M' when turned upside down, or 'E' when turned sideways. It's best to try to make it "interesting" looking, whatever that means to you. Try different combos until one looks "good" to your eye. Then do a nice rendering of it on the medium of you choice. Some people insist on handmade parchment paper and dragon's blood ink or other fancy stuff, but most of the time I just use regular unlined paper and a nice ink marker. It depends on the situation, as you'll see later on. Next, you must charge the sigil magically. There are many ways of doing this; performing a ritual to focus magical energy on it, using it as a "mandala" and staring at it intently during deep meditation, or by using sexual magick. This is done by placing it in view and focusing on it intently at the point of orgasm. In the dollar bill charging, my partner and I painted the sigil on the bill with gold ink, then made love in the Tantric "sitting" position with the dollar taped to the ceiling where we could both look up at it as we climaxed. The operating theory behind all this is that the desires implanted in the subconscious mind are magically effective if, and _only_ if, the conscious mind is NOT ALSO THINKING ABOUT THEM. The conscious mind "derails" any possible magical effect. Crowley and others called this "avoiding lust of result", which short-circuits magical power. During orgasm, deep meditation, climactic ritual or any other emotionally charged state, the subconscious mind "opens up" to being impressed magically with an intended result. Call it subconscious self-programming. Using a sigil allows the subconscious to "get the message" without the conscious mind gettting in the way. At the point of charging, one must not think about the sentence of desire, and only look at the sigil as an abstract picture. Your subconscious, of course, _does_ remember what the sigil means and the effect of "inserting" it is accomplished. After charging, one either destroys the sigil (usually by ritually burning it) or uses it as a talisman (to roll it up and tie it around your neck would be appropriate if it were made for protection). Our dollar bill game was a variation on this. This is only a short summary of the technique; I recommend _Practical Sigil Magic_ by Frater U.D. (Llewellyn Books) as the best book I've seen on the subject. If you don't have an occult or new age bookstore near you call 1-800-THE-MOON to order from the publisher directly. I hope this helps you on you way. Remember my techniques are _not_ definitive in any way and other people here may offer different styles - pick whatever seems to work and feel best for _you_. Be seeing you... -J:.M:.555 ... Goddess gives us the nuts, but, She does _not_ crack them for us. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718