From: Lei Area: MagickNet To: Kayla Block 8 Jan 94 23:57:04 Subject: reply UpdReq Hey! Can you describe to me about your beliefs? I am not Wiccan, I'm just learning! I'm considering a lot of different things, which is why I am making posts and trying to learn as much as i can before I jump into anything. I feel so tied to magick and Witchcraft, etc..it's almost unbalievable. I would be happy to hear any info u can share with me! Later..Lei "Twinkles" 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Ghost in the Machine Area: MagickNet To: Josh Norton 10 Jan 94 01:10:00 Subject: OS/2 and NT UpdReq While picking the lock at the portal to the Akashic Records, Josh Norton woke the Guardian with... JN> GITM> Still, the operating system seems to be a flop thus far. OS/2 2.1 JN> GITM> requires 4Mb to run (8Mb to run *well*) and 30Mb of fixed disk. It JN> GITM> has been out-selling NT steadily since its introduction... the JN> GITM> multi-platform version is due out this year, and provides all of the JN> GITM> same features. The $69.95 price tag is much more reasonable too. JN> JN> WHAT?!?!? Use an IBM product??? Eyuck! Gag me with a spoon! I'm still JN> recovering from their Metaphor-under-OS/2 debacle of a couple of years JN> ago. While I *am* enough of an OS/2 zealot to start ranting , it really isn't on topic. All I can do is suggest that, like all things, one should give it a good look before discarding it. Keep in mind that today's Microsoft is yesterday's IBM... all becomes clear when you look at the past and present products and business practises of both organizations. Ad Lucis per Legis, Ghost in the Machine ___ X KWQ/2 1.2d X Microsoft Windows NT: [N]ot [T]oday. [N]ot [T]omorrow, either. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Ghost in the Machine Area: MagickNet To: Thomas Palmer 10 Jan 94 01:10:06 Subject: Past Master's Jewel UpdReq While picking the lock at the portal to the Akashic Records, Thomas Palmer woke the Guardian with... TP> It is beginning to be obvious to me that I need to arrange a visit to TP> "our Northern Neighbor" and visit some lodges! The differences in your TP> work and ours are fascinating. If you find yourself preparing to visit Toronto, drop me a message beforehand so that we can arrange to get together for coffee. (At the very least!) TP> We had a brother visit us from Argentina last year and his perspectives TP> and customs were wonderful. A reversible apron for the 3rd Degree, and TP> standing giving the sign of the "attentive ear" when being addressed by TP> the Master. I've seen a few variants. Our Lodge had a visitor from Glasgow some months ago... given that our Grand Lodge tends to lean towards Scottish tradition, there were more similarities than one might expect. It *was* interesting that the bordering on his apron was green, where ours is sky blue. He also addressed the Master with the Sign of Fidelity, where we use the Penal Sign. TP> A side note. Went to a meeting at Grand Lodge and was looking for the TP> Grand Master. A Past GM was walking by, and I innocently asked him, TP> "Have you seen our Grand Master?" Without missing a beat or stopping TP> he replied, "Not since high twelve yesterday." I nearly fell down TP> laughing! ROFL! Our Work isn't so different that I would miss *that* reference. }8) Ad Lucis per Legis, Ghost in the Machine ___ X KWQ/2 1.2d X Freemasons: Good news! It's 32 degrees outside! 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Ghost in the Machine Area: MagickNet To: Dagonet 10 Jan 94 01:10:08 Subject: Christianity vs. Paganis UpdReq While picking the lock at the portal to the Akashic Records, Dagonet woke the Guardian with... D> Any statement I make where I talk about "Christianity" I am referring to D> the Christian establishment. Sorry, I should disclaimer that. I know there D> are individuals within the establishment that are better, and are worse. I D> am talking about the common denominator...the churches. Agreed. Sorry I got a bit rabid there... there seems to be an all-too-natural tendency to over-stereotype in all of us. When someone decides to make a blanket statement about Christianity, they often fail to realize that there is often a big difference between Christians and the Christian Church. Hell, even *within* those two categories, there are too many radically opposed factions to count. My reaction to this is akin to that of a Wiccan who gets lumped in with someone's blanket criticism about Paganism... the critic's only exposure to Paganism being Santeria. D> And I will give you credit. The Christians had a great start; you've just D> been slumping since the Council of Nicaea (grin). My particular strain of Christianity never acknowledged the Council of Nicea, the Emperor Constantine nor the Roman Church for that matter... we're still trying to convince the others that for the past 1500 years, they've been victims of "politically correct" editors and translators. D> I hope someday we all can worship our deities in a civilization as opposed D> to what we have now. Christos is a face of the God as well. It'll take a lot of work, but it becomes much easier if we're all willing to understand and accept one another. Ad Lucis per Legis, Ghost in the Machine ___ X KWQ/2 1.2d X Ad Lucis per Legis - Unto Light through order 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Merlin Ambrosius Area: MagickNet To: Ghost in the Machine 10 Jan 94 01:10:00 Subject: Christianity vs. Paganis UpdReq On 01-10-94 Ghost in the Machine wrote to Dagonet... Gi> we're still trying to convince the others that for the past 1500 Gi> years, Gi> they've been victims of "politically correct" editors and translators. hmmm sounds a bit like the Cathars who were the 12th centuries version of hippies, Pope innocent-2 ordered the total extermination of all of them (in the process depopulating most of southern Europe...) They (as I remember in my reading) were an esoteric branch of xtianity who held views that today would be considered normal! (sex before marriage, think for yourself, art is good, coffee is good Jack kerouack and Burroughs probably would'v like them) MEA. ___ * OFFLINE 1.54 * Oh, that's God, he only thinks he's Andrew Elderitch... |-) 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: MagickNet To: Fir 9 Jan 94 00:00:02 Subject: Keeping silence UpdReq Thus said Fir to Josh Norton concerning Keeping silence: JN> I haven't ranted on this for a while...maybe it's time again. Where's JN> that doggone soapbox? [finds it, stands on it...] Fi> I'm a little surprised that nobody has ranted back at you. Heh. Maybe everyone's still hung over from the holidays. Fi> Yes, the other message is what triggered my question here. JN> The first is avoiding unnecessary trouble. Talking about magick to JN> people who don't know anything about it is usually a good way to cause JN> difficulties for yourself. Fi> Agreed. What do you do with people who are interested but know next Fi> to nothing about it though? Well, unless something indicates the person might have some connection to me or my work, I generally just keep my mouth shut, or point them towards some publicly-available material. I've mentioned before that I often have a hard time expressing my ideas and perceptions of magick in real-time. Someone else might not; this is an area where it's best to judge the right course of action from your awareness of your own context, and from past experience of the results of various courses. JN> Ideally, the magickal side of your life should be JN> invisible to anyone not directly involved in it. And if someone JN> "outside" does become aware of it, they should have the impression that JN> your interest is just a harmless quirk, not to be taken seriously. Fi> I think this is how I approach family, for instance. Or rather I Fi> speak about harmless things like herbs, astrology, etc. Right! JN> Now, all the above is the "outer" value of keeping silence. On the inner JN> side, its value lies in the prevention of what I would call "premature JN> crystalization" of awareness. JN> <...> JN> Thus a magickal energy which is transformed into ideas or speech is as JN> much grounded as one that manifests as physical events. The energy JN> "solidifies" in whatever form the ideas and speech give it, and all its JN> future manifestations are determined by that initial JN> intellectual form. Fi> Do you really believe that talking about something prematurely Fi> prejudices any future involvement with it? Making firm interpretations of experience prematurely certainly causes problems. Every step of initiation involves an expansion of the scope of one's perceptions, so trying to make the new perceptions fit into the mold of an old or inadequate idea is like trying to pour a quart of water into a pint-sized bottle; most of it spills out and is lost. But I believe that in many cases, there is a more pervasive effect, as described in the quoted remarks above. Acceptance of a certain way of looking at things as the "real" or "true" way tends to blind us to (or cut us off from) possibilities that lie outside that conception. Take either Crowley or Frater Achad as an example. Crowley was supposed to "purge" the magick of the "old aeon" and re- create it in a form appropriate to the "new aeon" of Horus. But despite his efforts, his magick always remained basically that of the Golden Dawn, and carried over many of the faults and inadequacies of the G.D. untouched. And his belief that the G.D. version of the Tree of Life was the "true" Tree caused him to reject the possibilities inherent in Achad's newer version. He never freed himself from the fundamentally absolutist views of the magickal universe that were the common perspective of the Piscean era. Achad had problems because he allowed himself to be locked into a Thelemic viewpoint, and into a specific _role_ in relation to Thelema. Thus he tried to interpret his own Tree of Life within the narrow limits of Thelemic symbolism, missing many things of value therein that don't fit that matrix. And even after it was clear that his role in the Thelemic drama had become irrelevant to events, he still tried to use that role as the basis of his work. Thus he shunted himself off into a couple of decades of useless activities. Now, every one of us is blind to many aspects of existence that others might see clearly; our natures as individuals make this inevitable and unavoidable. What we have to look out for is putting limits on ourselves that are more restrictive than those that are inherent in our natures. If you keep aware that your interpretations are really speculations based on current experience, and are subject to change or expand at any time, then there's no problem. If you go far enough in magick, I can guarantee that every idea you have ever had will be overturned two or three times along the way. _Nothing_ survives the entire course unchanged. ... Nuke the Gay Whales for Christ. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Thomas Palmer Area: MagickNet To: Grendel Grettisson 10 Jan 94 08:25:00 Subject: Tombstone and Masonic symbols UpdReq -=> Quoting Grendel Grettisson to Thomas Palmer <=- GG> Actually, the height of Fraternal Orders, to my knowledge, was about GG> 1904. All of them (yours and mine) have been in general decline since GG> that time. This seems to have somewhat reversed itself in the past GG> couple of years but only time will show if this is a full reversal or GG> momentary. I made a faulty assumption. I thought the movie to which I was refering was the older version from the thirties. I was unaware that there was a new one out until this weekend. In that context the statement makes a little more sense . BB Thomas Palmer ... How many signatures does it take to petition an element?? 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kettlingurr Area: MagickNet To: Thomas Izaguirre 10 Jan 94 21:10:00 Subject: interesting..... UpdReq -=> Did you hear what Thomas Izaguirre said? TI> Call me morbidly curious, but I would be interested in seeing the text TI> of this zealot's malediction. Sounds vaguely similar to the latest TI> psycho-warfare tactice Operation Rescue is employing: mailing fliers TI> to people who have patronized clinics (whether there for abortion or TI> not) teeling them that God's punishment for what they have done TI> includes infertility, ill health, family problems, etc. ad nauseum. TI> This, of course, can be avoided by confessing their sins and joining TI> their organization. Interesting...... I guess they haven't hit Knoxville yet, then. :> Otherwise, one would be in my mailbox. ...and to think I would have gone with the rest of them. :> When my Mom saw me visually pawing through the New Age section of B. Dalton's, she said, "started thinking for yourself?" Gave her a grin in answer...... Kettlingurr ... And now for something completely different... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kayla Block Area: MagickNet To: Josh Norton 10 Jan 94 02:18:18 Subject: This and that UpdReq 93 josh, JN> Latest word is that Power-PCs will have a version of Windows NT JN> available, but that DOS and Windows-for-DOS programs will run based on your description of windows NT, i will be really disappointed if that's all that these power pc chips will run. (maybe i'll hold my breath?!) KB> forward to the things coming out so that i can finally find KB> out just what these machines can and cannot do. JN> My understanding is that Apple/IBM are planning several levels of JN> machines, using versions of the chip with different speeds. The first to JN> come out will be about equivalent to a high-end PC in ability, with JN> later versions being much faster and more powerful. i've heard the same. any idea when this beast is supposed to actually be released? all i've heard is 1994, but nothing about when in '94. TTYL 93, --kayla 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Static Area: MagickNet To: Grendel Grettisson 9 Jan 94 23:00:52 Subject: Re: Asatru ethics UpdReq GG> Me? I'm a member of the Friends of Loki Society. Other Asatru are often le GG> inclined to be very tolerant of him. GG> I know.. Noone wants to admit that Loki is not that bad of a guy.. Sheesh... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Walter Five Area: MagickNet To: All 9 Jan 94 14:18:30 Subject: This Masonic Thread UpdReq From: walter5@hrnowl.lonestar.org (Walter Five) Newsgroups: pod.magicknet Subject: This Masonic Thread Dagonet@f10.n9900.z93.fidonet.org (Dagonet) writes: > And lo, Chris Olmstead did spake unto Thomas Palmer, and it was thus: > > CO> Hi Thomas, > > CO> Ya know? This thread concerning the exclusion of women from the > CO> Masonic Mysteries sounds just a bit like what I have heard about why > CO> women can't be "priests" in the Catholic Church. (I think I may also > CO> have heard it bandied by the Anglicans, not certain there.) > > Just as a side note; the Anglican Church (i.e., the Anglicans in > England) now allow women as of last year, I believe. The Anglican Communion > in the United States...the Episcopal Church of America... first ordained > women in 1972. (Still waiting for the first female bishop, though). That > is the main reason the Interfaith Agreement that the Episcopalians and > the LCA (Lutheran Church of America) signed in 1987 didn't include > the Roman Catholics or the Missouri Synod Lutherans. > Before I was Pagan, I was Episcopalian. I still consider it the most > level-headed, intelligent, and progressive brand of Christianity out there. > Just thought I'd throw in my two cents. > > blest be and pax, +dagonet+ > > > ... I'm going for a tough one: I'm reclaiming God the Father!!! > * Origin: The Banter Decanter - The Gnome's HQ - Indiana (93:9900/10.0) Not so! I was present at the Ordination of the first Episcopalian Woman Bishop, Barbra Harris in Boston 5 or 6 years ago. Quite a moment in Womyn's Herstory, I'll tell you! Blessed Beast! Walter Five 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Walter Five Area: MagickNet To: All 9 Jan 94 14:27:56 Subject: "The Company of Heaven" UpdReq From: walter5@hrnowl.lonestar.org (Walter Five) Newsgroups: pod.magicknet Subject: "The Company of Heaven" Paul.Hume@f8.n9810.z93.fidonet.org (Paul Hume) writes: > Mark - > 93. > My only complaint about the Company of Heaven is that they ignored > William Blake Camp in their mailing list. We never got the nifty > proclamation or the box top premiums or anything. But I'll show 'em. > > Paul > > * Origin: The Arena of Anon * Herndon, Virginia * (703) 904-9669 (93:9810/8) Hell's Bells, Paul! You kin have mine, if yew want'em. Not much good for ennythang but lining the Parrot's Cage! Just show to go you: Some people shouldn't take the K.E.W., even when offered! Blessed Beast, 93/93 Walter Five 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Walter Five Area: MagickNet To: All 10 Jan 94 05:30:04 Subject: "The Company of Heaven" UpdReq From: walter5@hrnowl.lonestar.org (Walter Five) Newsgroups: pod.magicknet Subject: "The Company of Heaven" Christeos.Pir@f8.n9810.z93.fidonet.org (Christeos Pir) writes: > -=> Re: Re: "The Company of Heaven" <=- > > Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. > > PH> My only complaint about the Company of Heaven is that they ignored > PH> William Blake Camp in their mailing list. We never got the nifty > PH> proclamation or the box top premiums or anything. But I'll show 'em. > > Gee, maybe we should start a counter-counter-revolutionary body. An > Antibody! > > Love is the law, love under will. > > - Phyllis Stein > > ... Also young boys shall pour wonderful wines for thee, > * Origin: The Arena of Anon (93:9810/8) Oh, Phyllis! :-) :-) :-) Soror Stella Ignis Mistress, Apotheosis Camp, Houston Tx 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Michael Zawistowski Area: MagickNet To: OBELISK 9 Jan 94 02:51:00 Subject: Re: Mystic Cities UpdReq -=> Invoking the message of Obelisk to Paul Hume <=- Ob> The more time spent creating and working each implement seems to Ob> bring about a clearer idea of the item, as you noted when working the Ob> colors. I spent 3 days acheiving the correct spectrum on the Lotus Ob> Wand. I also have to work when my roommate is not around which is a Ob> little more difficult to do. He did see the Rose Cross one morning and Ob> asked why I was making it. He thought it was so intriguing that I Ob> shouldn't hide it from sight. I am aware of the Silence. Would it be Ob> improper to allow him to see the implements before they are Ob> consecrated? I'd hate for him to accidentally find my Air Dagger and Ob> Sword and think I've gone off the deep end. One old master i know off did speak well of the amplification of power attained by making all of your implements from scratch, and even recommended making the tools to make the implements in the same way. "virgin" as it were Thus this answers your question regarding your roommate, etc. The implementa should be kept virgin, and should thereafter be used for the work they were intended for, only. Your roomate should have no part in them whatsoever. depending on how purist you want to be, you may want to start another Rose Cross from scratch... After all, it is only the Great Work .... ... "Shhhh! Hardware is Supposed to Be Secret!" ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.11 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Michael Zawistowski Area: MagickNet To: DARKSTAR 9 Jan 94 19:52:00 Subject: Re: Black magic prayers UpdReq -=> Invoking the message of Darkstar to Julian <=- Da> My husband ran into what could only be described as a "black Da> magic prayer" on another board, on a religious descussion sub. Da> An extremely obnoxious fundamentalist Christian on that board Da> has informed my husband that he is praying that my husband get Da> no rest, that his heart doesn't pump blood properly, and many Da> other nasty things, until he turns from "Satanism" to the "One Da> True God". Needless to say, it hasn't worked, nor will it, Da> but it's rather an odd course of action for someone who Da> professes to believe what the Christian Bible says Jesus Da> taught. Based on what you said, even without the mechanics of the golden rule, it should backfire with sufficient force, that if your husband returns the flow with true and enlightened love and compassion not hindered by pity... well the gentleman in question should start to suffer from the very things he wishes on others in a few short years, just based on the spiritual mechanics. you know... say something like : "Blessed be for your concern! May the blessings you wish upon others return to you and yours three fold ..." If done with competent sincerity, ity has interesting effects. Da> However, we have had Christian friends offer to pray for us in Da> times of trouble to help things get better. That we don't Da> object to, because we feel that it's dumb to refuse help when Da> it's offered, no matter what the source, as long as it's a Da> sincere offer like these were, and not the favor the person on Da> the other board feels he is doing my husband. ... "Paid off? What does that mean?" ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.11 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Michael Zawistowski Area: MagickNet To: GEORGE 9 Jan 94 20:00:00 Subject: Re: Hebrew UpdReq -=> Invoking the message of George to Paul Hume <=- Ge> Nowhere does elohim equat to creation. In fact elohim is one Ge> of the few words which is unambiguous (well, it can mean God or gods). Ge> It is based on elohi (which means sea-god or sea-goddess) with the Ge> masculine plural ym on the end. From a strictly linguistic point Ge> of view (and from a traditional/practical kabbalistic one too) the Ge> word elohim has nothing to do with the elements. This is *very* interesting.... I would be interested in any other material you might have that would shed light on the structure of the early Hebrew religion as a pagan religion, before it received it monotheistic structures. As an example, I recall from someplace a similarity drawn between the seven days of creation and the seven epochs of creation in the sumerian creation mythos... the correspondences are fascinating.... ... "Cowabunga I'll take the Marshmallow pizza" ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.11 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Michael Zawistowski Area: MagickNet To: TANIM 9 Jan 94 20:16:00 Subject: Re: Jeddi project UpdReq -=> Invoking the message of Tanim to Darkstar <=- >>---> Quoth Darkstar... <---<< Da> I wonder how they selected these people? Even in Star Wars, Da> this wasn't something just anyone could do, apparently. Ta> I was acquainted once with someone who was involved with such Ta> things in the military. That was about seven or eight years ago. He'd Ta> been selected while in military inteligence. Then he left the service, Ta> and one day he turned up missing. He reappeared the next day, after Ta> having gone quite mad. Ta> Exactly what happened to him, and why, and who did it is not Ta> precisely known. And nobody really wanted to get very close to the Ta> prime suspects...Strange days, indeed. Strangely enough, if he hasn't been on psych drugs or had psych-surgery, i would suggest that you get in touch with professionals from the Church of Scientology. These are the only guys I know that have anywhere near the skill to handle something like this, and have been doing so for decades (one reason the government didn't like them) If he has been on psych drugs or psycho-surguried, well they have rules about how to handle this sort of thing, and when not to touch it. This is more for political reasons than technical Otherwise, no big deal. Though it could take many man hours over several months to sort it out... that's months, *not* years ... These guys definitely have my respect in this regard, tho for something like this you should get in touch with one of the major centers in LA or like that... ... "Error #1511: Brain Offline" ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.11 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Belgarath Area: MagickNet To: Morgan Le Fey 8 Jan 94 14:35:00 Subject: Re: Samhain UpdReq ***>Speaking with more than words, Morgan Le Fey said to Lei...<*** MLF> Actually, It is pronouced as Sowan, the first syllable sounding MLF> like the term for a female pig. I've also heard it pronounced "Sawan" as in sawing wood, wan as in pale. BELGARATH ... ELECTRO-SHOCK THERAPY.......REFORMATTING THE HUMAN HARD-DRIVE ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Valkyrie Area: MagickNet To: Grendel Grettisson 9 Jan 94 22:32:00 Subject: "no Help Wanted" E. Tubbs UpdReq GG> > (Seriously, Aidan Kelly lived in the NY Metro area for a brief while; GG> > during that time, he belonged to the coven I belong to. Since I've GG> > Circled with him, and he's a fascinating and very intelligent person, I GG> > thought I'd plug his book for him...) GG> If it's so good, why won't Llwellyn publish his second one (part two)? Maybe it was a lot better then the first one? SLMR 2.1a Womyn: femyle pyrsyns who spyl wyrds stryngyly. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Valkyrie Area: MagickNet To: Grendel Grettisson 9 Jan 94 22:34:00 Subject: Asatru Ethics UpdReq GG> > Say-which reminds me,what do you think of Loki? Do you think he is evil GG> > or do you think he is a real necessary force in the life and times of th GG> > norsement and the Aesir? GG> Me? I'm a member of the Friends of Loki Society. Other Asatru are often le GG> inclined to be very tolerant of him. How do you join that group? Blessings V SLMR 2.1a I'm weird, but around here it's barely noticeable.... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Grendel Grettisson Area: MagickNet To: Valkyrie 10 Jan 94 23:08:00 Subject: Asatru Ethics UpdReq > GG> Me? I'm a member of the Friends of Loki Society. Other Asatru are often > GG> less inclined to be very tolerant of him. > How do you join that group? Get accepted and initiated by one of its members. Wassail, Grendel Grettisson 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Obelisk Area: MagickNet To: Joseph Max 11 Jan 94 12:19:38 Subject: GD Tools UpdReq Thanks for the tip Max. After examining it again there is an interruption between the blue green and the blue. I'll have to lighten the blue green, too deep in tone for correct flow of spectrum. I saw a book at Curios & Candles yesterday in SF that had color plates of the tools. I corrected the handle of the Air Dagger and the Sword. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Ghost in the Machine Area: MagickNet To: Merlin Ambrosius 11 Jan 94 01:11:00 Subject: Christianity vs. Paganis UpdReq While picking the lock at the portal to the Akashic Records, Merlin Ambrosius woke the Guardian with... MA> GitM> we're still trying to convince the others that for the past 1500 MA> GitM> years, they've been victims of "politically correct" editors and MA> GitM> translators. MA> MA> hmmm sounds a bit like the Cathars who were the 12th centuries version MA> of hippies, Pope innocent-2 ordered the total extermination of all of MA> them (in the process depopulating most of southern Europe...) Some of us are like that... personally, I'm not really geared towards the Cathars' dualistic Material=Demiurge=Evil Spiritual=God=Good viewpoint. The Albigensian Crusade took out most of the Languedoc region, hardly "most of southern Europe", but still a sizeable area. It seems that the only areas in the region that remained untouched were those under Templar protection. The Templars were staunchly against the Albigensian Crusade, responding to the Pope's call to arms with "The only true Crusade is against the Moors in Outremer." (They had a hell of a lot of Cathars in their ranks, but that wouldn't have anything to do with it... would it?) MA> They (as I remember in my reading) were an esoteric branch of xtianity MA> who held views that today would be considered normal! MA> (sex before marriage, think for yourself, art is good, coffee is good MA> Jack kerouack and Burroughs probably would'v like them) Yup, right up their alley. Ad Lucis per Legis, Ghost in the Machine ___ X KWQ/2 1.2d X You can do anything thou wilt at Aleister's Restaurant. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Darkstar Area: MagickNet To: Joseph Teller 7 Jan 94 11:04:02 Subject: What a mess! UpdReq Joseph Teller transmitted > Of course in many cases one organization refused to recognize the other > which causes part of the problems of doing research on the subject. The > Secret Society Wars were much mroe complex then the modern 'witch wars' > that go on in modern magickal society in many ways. Sounds like something I would be best off staying away from, then. Our Circle consists of my husband, our son, our roommate, and myself, and all but our rommate are of a Solitary inclination, mostly because neither of us adults (our son is only seven) cares for the kind of infighting and politicking that naturally tends to goe on in groups. It sounds like the various flavors of Masonism have their share. The Masons do a lot of good in their own way, but I think they'll have to do it without me. Thanks for the information, though! 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Darkstar Area: MagickNet To: Alix 7 Jan 94 11:08:04 Subject: Jeddi project UpdReq Alix transmitted +++Message Begins >If I understand correctly, people were selected, men all I think, based up >a battery of physical mental psi and psychological testing >and the results of same. I think most participants were >already schooled in advanced warrior techniques such as >SPecial Forces, Delta -Force, Seals, that sort of thing. >As if the world wasn't already a scarey enough place, huh? This will certainly make it easier for ME to sleep nights--NOT!! I thought it was evil of the Russians to do this. I wonder why we were doing it to? ___ X TLX v1.56 X Psychoceramics: The study of crackpots. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Darkstar Area: MagickNet To: Kat 7 Jan 94 11:14:06 Subject: Going on UpdReq Kat transmitted +++Message Begins > My cold finaly broke last night, and I'm feeling much >better. Must be all the positive energy that everyone's >been pouring at me. (Grin.) Take care of yourself for now, and deal with what you need to deal with. We'll talk about herbs again when YOU feel up to it--don't push yourself, please. :-) 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Darkstar Area: MagickNet To: Ace Li 7 Jan 94 11:19:08 Subject: Pentagon/gram UpdReq Ace Li transmitted >Do you mind if I pay it in astral money? That's all I'll accept! >Try some of his pre-New Age stuff; _Stranger To The Ground_, _Nothing By >Chance_, _A Gift Of Wings_, _Biplane_. Thanks for the recommendation--I'll see if I can find any of these. I like his writing style--just couldn't get into the subject matter. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Darkstar Area: MagickNet To: Lei 10 Jan 94 10:40:30 Subject: Samhain UpdReq Lei transmitted >in reply to your message, how to pronounce samhain, it >would be sam(as in the name) then hain(as if you were going >to "hang" something) does that answer your question? what >is your belief as far as magic goes? All depends, I guess--most people I have met pronounce it "Sowen" to rhyme with "cow pen" (yes, I know that's an appalling comparison!) I understand that it's a Celtic term to begin with, and, from what I've observed, you're pretty safe pronouncing Celtic words by omitting about half the letters and mispronouncing the rest by English standards (just kidding!) ___ X TLX v1.56 X This message is made from 100% recycled electrons. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Darkstar Area: MagickNet To: Lewis Stead 10 Jan 94 10:43:32 Subject: Can of worms UpdReq Lewis Stead transmitted >I'm sorry you've met such folks. I assure you I haven't nor would I toler >them if I did. The worst I have met (and don't tolerate) are those who >believe Asatru is for Norse-folks, but who have nothing against anyone els >>As to why we put up with and provide succor for such people, we don't. Wh >do you want? A public disclaimer of Hitler in every message? No need for the public disclaimer--just teach by example, like the rest of us Pagan folks do. Eventually the message will get through. In the meantime, work on developing callouses--unfortunately, THEY are probably going to be more vocal than you are. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Indigo Blues Area: MagickNet To: Ace Li 8 Jan 94 20:18:22 Subject: Bach-nial UpdReq Hail Ace! * Replying to a message originally to Darkstar on 04-Jan-94 I've been gone for a lil' while, so I thought I'd just dive back in, hope you don't mind . AL>>Try some of his pre-New Age stuff; _Stranger To The Ground_, AL>>_Nothing By Chance_, _A Gift Of Wings_, _Biplane_. _Nothing By Chance_, didn't that come out after _Illusions_? In fact, I know it did... I tend to date Richard Bach's material, in terms of metawhatsits, from _Jonathan Livingston Seagull_ and forward. In fact, the two books I've always handed to my students labeled as "Required Reading" , are _JLS_ and _Illusions_. Good stuff, irregardless... -Indy P.S. Give my regards to Tal! 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Ace Li Area: MagickNet To: Melizand 9 Jan 94 18:48:46 Subject: Weddings UpdReq ME>Oooh, that's too bad. Rough on everyone. But if you're lucky, it's just >a phase; and there's a good chance that all that good stuff from early >childhood sank in as the interior 'mommy voice,' but he wants no part of >it until he grows up... Well, kids are naturally (small-p) pagans, until and unless Society beats it out of them. I do hope that *some* of what I tried to teach him surfaces after he's done with adolescent rebellion... ME>Hey, a taildragger! A good club to belong to. We have a 1947 Stinson >that is eating us out of house and home but is my SO's pride and joy. >Come on down and he'll take you up... Alas, the chances of my ever getting to Texas are slim to none. Now, if I had a plane, I'd just use the trip to pile up my cross-country time! ;-) SLMR 2.0 Floggings will continue until morale improves! 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Ace Li Area: MagickNet To: Valkyrie 9 Jan 94 19:26:04 Subject: Re: Help Wanted UpdReq VA> We settled for chocolate dipped and white coating dipped piggies >from the animal crackers, and cookies made with a cookie cutter. In our trad, you have to lead a Sabbat Circle to qualify for 1st Degree. The candidate who did Yule is a *very* good cook... he made really nice butter cookies...and cheesecake for the feast after Circle...and some sort of vegetable casserole... VA>Since we don't use coal or wood we used a battery, bread and butter, >bacon (as in bringing home...), a silver dollar, chocolate (of course), >and each person adds something that they *really* want in the coming >year. My oldest son and his friend were the first ones back on New >Year's morning, so my son brought it in. We were hoping my nieces >boy-friend (a dark, stranger) would get there. We were talking about it >the next morning and I jokingly told Matt that we had hoped he would be >the one to bring it in since it would have been luckier. VA>My husband said, "Yeah, and we forgot to put a car on the tray." >Matt grinned and pointed at a real cute little MatchBox car sitting on >top of my computer monitor and said, "Hey, does that count?" He'd found >it in Seattle and he'd stuck it in his pocket and left it there for me. > VA>Oh Boy! I can hardly wait to see what a little Bird's Custard Powder >delivery truck produces in the way of transportation this year. ;) Well, nobody brought nothin' into my house this New Year's. So I guess if I want something, I'm going to have to get the Godz to give it to me some other way... SLMR 2.0 If it ain't broken...fix it anyway! 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Ace Li Area: MagickNet To: Valkyrie 9 Jan 94 19:26:06 Subject: Dowsing/ley Lines UpdReq VA>There's also a lot more of me now then there was twenty-seven years ago >too. I saw a tagline (too long to steal, alas) about "Cakes and wine? No problem! Faery food has no calories, said the overweight HPs." VA>I found a book called "Crystal Warrior" from Llewellyn that is a real >hoot. I'm torn between taking him half-seriously with the AEM crystal >blasters, and wondering if he isn't just laughing his way to the bank. >I'm going to make at least one of those contraptions just for the fun of >it. Well, on a purely rational level, of course, this whole thing is a total crock, of course. But the crystal blasters certainly *LOOK* cool! OTOH, almost *anything* will work on a symbolic level. When my kid was little, he watched a lot of cartoons, including He-Man and She-Ra. I was talking to some covensibs about the Pagan/magickal elements in some of the cartoons (did you ever watch the Smurfs?), and I held my athame pointed up, over my head, and called "For the honor of Greyskull!"...... and damned if I didn't get a little "buzz" of power from it! SLMR 2.0 I know engineers; they love to change things. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Erin Area: MagickNet To: Thomas Palmer 12 Jan 94 19:29:18 Subject: Tombstone and Masonic symbols UpdReq Quoth Thomas Palmer to Erin: ------------------------------- I find no record of major anti-Masonic feeling this century before the 1980's. The last major attack on Masonry took place in the late 1800's and caused a 50-70% drop in membership. As in the current case, it was motivated by religious fundamentalism and bigotry. That Hollywood would attempt to defame Masonry during the height of its popularity this century seems pretty far fetched. Catering to the whims of stars and less focus on continuity and detail was pattern during this time and seems more plausible to me. orry I have not seen the film, but hope this rather lengthy diatribe has been of interest and use to you. Start a Mason talking about Masonry, and he can be hard to shut up! ------------------------------ As for that last, it sounds like me and Wicca! Thanks for the info. I wonder if it wasn't an attempt to portray te anti-Masonic feeling during the late 1800s, and a belated attempt on the part of the movie's producers to introduce a note of badly-needed historical accuracy into the production. I frankly can't see an actor wearing a symbol he personally was proud of to play a villain. I mean, people would immediately associate that symbol with his character, not with him. It would be like my wearing my pentacle to play the Wicked Witch of the West. Of course, sometimes according to my coven. . . Blessings, Erin 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Crat Area: MagickNet To: George 10 Jan 94 15:46:44 Subject: Ha'kabala UpdReq -=> Quoting George to Crat <=- Ge> I think the "filing system" approach to Ge> kabbala causes as much trouble as it settles. In I think the hermeticists refer to this as mistaking the map for the geography or some such thing. Frequently, when trying to find a particular christian entity or aspect would be on the Tree, I find myself forgetting the essence of the thing and becoming consumed with only a small part of its nature. Ge> Does a person with a hermetic kabbalistic background Ge> have the necessary preparation to develop a working to Ge> interpret a passage from the torah, illuminating a method Ge> of cleansing the working space? I doubt it. Ge> If I am wrong, please let me know. Bye for now, I think I need some help here. What would a working to interpret a passage of the Torah be? Obviously, I have missed a step somewhere. I can understand the need to know the Torah to understand the esoteric nature of the kabbalah, but I've never heard of using the kabbalah to illuminate the Torah. As to whether an hermeticist could develop a practical working based on the Kabbalah, I think it's been done. Whether the results are the same is a matter of conjecture. The hermeticists may be closer to the Merkava mystics (replacing the chariot with the lightning bolt), but it seems to work toward some enlightenment, though obviously not toward the knowledge of YWH. Whether they have acheived "practical" workings based on the kabbalah I don't know. My interest is in whether the kabbalah can be used with a christian overlay; placing Christ in Tipareth as the union of the Father in Chockmah and the Holy Spirit in Binah. Unlike Augustine, I see Wisdom (as personified in the Book of Wisdom) as the Holy Spirit and therefore see Christ as emminating from the HS and Father rather than the HS from the Father and Son. Any suggestions. ... Of course I'm crazy. But that doesn't mean I'm WRONG! 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Crat Area: MagickNet To: Josh Norton 11 Jan 94 10:10:56 Subject: Keeping silence UpdReq -=> Quoting Josh Norton to Fir <=- JN> Now, all the above is the "outer" value of keeping silence. On the JN> inner side, its value lies in the prevention of what I would call JN> "premature crystalization" of awareness. JN> ... and a lengthy discourse deleted, but relevant .... You do have a tendency to touch on issue that are bugging the hell out of me at any given moment, don't you ? I will agree that there is a period of time in which one must "contemplate" rather than dissect a lesson, but at some point one must move the "knowledge" from a nebulous "feeling" to a concrete thought. It is when one finally puts pen to paper or attempts to explain and/or justify a concept or revelation that one begins to fully grasp it. It is knowing when that point is reached that is a real problem for me. I might "feel" that I have grasped the concept of "soul", but when I try to articulate that feeling and find I can't, I _know_ that I have not really internalized the concept. Einstein has been quoted as saying that you really don't under physics until you can explain it to a four year old . I understand your concern for making a concept too concrete too soon, but without that attempt, the concept never becomes part of one's self. (I do so hate philosophical discourses on knowledge, but don't know how to avoid it in this case .) Any suggestions on when to move from contemplation to meditation to discourse? ... We now return to our regularly scheduled flame-throwing. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Paul Hume Area: MagickNet To: Crat 11 Jan 94 22:18:02 Subject: Ha'kabala UpdReq Crat - Just a simple example of kabbalah illuminating exegesis of Torah: The first word of Genesis is Berashith (B'rasit,, B'raysit, etc.) Beth Resh Aleph Shin Yod Tau. The first letter of this word is Beth, which is the *second* letter of the Hebrew alphabet. Why start the story of Creation with the second letter of the alphabet viewed, in kabbalah, as the glyph of that Creation? From David Sheinkin, "Path of Kabbalah": "One explanation is that the Bible is not really describing the absolute beginning - that to begin the Bible with the second letter is a clue or signal that the account has omitted reference to that which came before. "A second explanation focuses on the shape of the letter Beth. Kabbalists teach that the shape of every letter meaningful and significant. Beth is open in only one direction-this suggests that time and events in our universe flow only one way... "Third, the Beth is prefixed in Hebrew to certain words to impart a specific meaning: it signifies the notion of either 'in' or 'with.' Thus the Bible's opening phrase can mean 'In the beginning...' or 'With the beginning...'." Somewhere, and damned if I can find a reference, it is noted that Berashith is also a notariqon for "In the beginning, G*d saw that Israel would accept the Law." This is another example of many. Kabbalah is in fact largely a form of Biblical exegesis, both of Torah and Tenach (Ezekiel is subject to masses of kabbalistic analysis). Sheinkin's work, cited above, is an excellent introduction to this material. Paul 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718