From: Kayla Block Area: MagickNet To: Rose Dawn 14 Aug 93 00:31:54 Subject: Re: WOMEN & Hell's Angels UpdReq 93 rose dawn, RD> RD> I *do* remember a case--written up in the _Los Angeles RD> Daily Journal_ as a matter of fact!--where a woman RD> sued the Hells Angels on the basis of gender RD> discrimination. I've yet to see a female flying the R&W! that's pretty hot! i'd like to see that! 93, kayla 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Kayla Block Area: MagickNet To: Titus Vandessel 14 Aug 93 00:33:22 Subject: THAT tome UpdReq 93 titus, TV> KB=ummm...no, i believe that herman wrote at least 3-4 books TV> KB=besides the magickal formulary. sorry i can't recall any TV> KB=titles offhand. TV> Really? That comes as a surprise to me, as Herman was not a TV> talented writer. Remember Arthwait in MOONCHILD? That was TV> Herman's style - totally unreadable. TV> tvd. hmmm...you have a good point there. though slater did write quite a few books, his writing style is rather lacking. it kind of goes against the idea of slater having written the simon necronomicon, doesn't it? damn! just when i thought i had figured out who wrote it! 93, ----kayla 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Kayla Block Area: MagickNet To: Albert Saperstein 14 Aug 93 00:54:30 Subject: THAT tome Rec'd UpdReq 93 albert, AS> from one of the many variant "Book Of Shadows" floating around. AS> That's it on Slater's work. A number of people here in AS> New York had intimate contact with the NECRONOMICON AS> prior to its publication. CABAL is a bit of a AS> loudmouth, to say the least, but I tend to lean toward AS> his theory as to the AS> origin of the Avon NECRONOMICON. hmmm...i think i missed his theory on this. i don't suppose you could restate it? as an aside, it is really striking to me how many people state unequivocally, that they KNOW what the origens of the avon nec. are. i like that you used the word, "theory". though, i also have my theories about this book, i have yet to find any sort of evidence that would prove to me much of anything about this book's origins. (but then again, i am a bit of skeptic, and it takes alot to convince me of anything.) 93, ---kayla 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: NightCreeper Area: MagickNet To: Kayla Block 13 Aug 93 06:42:00 Subject: Re: Rituals UpdReq KB> least adequately defend your point-of-view. as it is, you don't seem KB> to be doing anything other than having a knee-jerk reaction. KB> Yup, thats what it is.. I think some people on here know what I mean when I said what I said, and I dont appreciate this! Anyone see gateII, warlock, etc...? That is the kind of things I refer to, you know, real wierd stuff, like sacrifice and things.. As from here on I'd like to see this 'COMMENT' of mine end, and to stop fuss, I will discontiue replying on this matter.. -SUB DROPPED- ncvd 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Grendel Grettisson Area: MagickNet To: Kayla Block 13 Aug 93 23:15:00 Subject: shamanism & c.m. UpdReq > GG> I would consider trancework to be shamanistic. I plan > GG> on incorporating more shamanic techniques in some of my > GG> work but I'm also going to be working a bit with a > can you tell me more about what you mean by trancework in this context? The same as trancework in any magical context. Think of what a Hermetic magician would mean and THAT'S what I mean. I'm talking about going into a trance state while doing active workings. I consider that a normal requirement for magical work. > GG> Hermetic Lodge that I'm helping to found so I'm not > GG> sure if I will have the time to do a lot of that sort > GG> of work. > do you see shamanisitic techniques as being antithetical to hermetic > type work? (it seems like it wouldn't be, yet i don't know too many > hermeticists who utilize shamanistic stuff.) No, I don't see them as antithetical. There is only so many ways that the human brain works, not matter how people switch the labels. Wassail, Grendel Grettisson 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Grendel Grettisson Area: MagickNet To: Kayla Block 13 Aug 93 23:21:00 Subject: THAT tome UpdReq > this is really very interesting. i didn't realize that basically > fraternal organizations were able to do all of these things. as far as > i know, this means that fraternal organizations are about the only > entity in this country that can legally discriminate. No, religious bodies aren't required to admit anyone either. You can't stop people from freely associating privately with ONLY the people they want to. > do you mean strict definitions of what constitutes a fraternal > organization? There are legal definitions. In most areas of the country, there are particular codes written concerning fraternal organizations. That is because of the popularity and commonality of them in the past. For example, my lodge in the Odd Fellows owns a $1.2 million building in which we have our lodge space as well as retail space. As a non-profit fraternal organization, we pay no land taxes to the government. Donations aren't tax deductable though. In fact, the Hermetic lodge I am working with is incorporating in this state as a fraternal order in order to take advantage of the laws that are on the books. My friends were surprised when I told them pagans didn't generally know about these laws or incorporate as fraternal orders. I then pointed out that most pagan groups can incorporate as non-profit religious groups and gain similar benefits. > i would imagine that somewhere in time, at least one "fraternal > organization" has been legally challenged on discrimination laws, but i > don't know of any cases. it would be interesting to find out. How would it be challenged? If I'm a member of a club, you can't force us to accept anyone. The only cases that I know of where something like a fraternal order was challenged was where business was being conducted there and women were not able to compete and were being harmed by being excluded. If there is no harm (monetary or otherwise) you can't stop people from freely associating as they wish. Wassail, Grendel Grettisson 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Commander Barbarella Area: MagickNet To: The Hobbit 11 Aug 93 07:47:44 Subject: Re: Weatherfolk UpdReq The Hobbit has been charged with the crime of consorting with Beorn. The evidence: TH> Oh please send a cold front to Florida! It was 99 degrees with 80% TH> humidity here yesterday. AND I don't have air conditioning :(. TH> Or else give me a spell to ward off alligators. I do live on a TH> lake TH> but an 8 ft gator decided to move in last month and the game TH> people TH> won't do anything about it. Curiosity's got me...Just where are you? We're in Titusville. Barb 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Captain Rock Area: MagickNet To: Triple Six 11 Aug 93 09:25:36 Subject: Re: Eck Ick UpdReq Triple Six has been charged with the crime of consorting with Chris Olmstead. The evidence: TS> Hmm, do you think it's possible that Eckankar is the _true_ TS> A:.A:.? There is much that is similar, but I would say not. Sri Harold Klemp is no perfect master, and based on my reading, he's the best they've had. Rock 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Rose Dawn Area: MagickNet To: Kayla Block 11 Aug 93 06:42:16 Subject: Re: CHARLES TART UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Kayla! > hey, i'd like to get a copy of that charles tart stuff as well. can > you receive netmail on modem magick? i can't remember exactly, but > i thought there was some problem on modem magick as far as netmail goes. I *had* planned on having all the articles copied by now, but wouldn't ya know it, life intervened in my plans. ;> I won't be so silly as to make promises as to the exact date I'll have photocopies made, but let's say by the end of the week anyway. I'll run off three copies of Tart's VR-personality-consciousness paper, Begelman's response, & Tart's rebuttal to Begelman--one for you, one for Chris O. (if he gets me his address) and one to keep in the nearing-capacity file cabinet. I can receive netmail--you crashed me once & I got your message fine. It's sending netmail that's a bit of a problem. If you netmail the Fido address it'll come through fine. Hmmm--however you did it before, do it that way again! ;> I have your address written down so I can send copies of the Tart stuff no problem. Other cool things I'd like to discuss a bit more privately with you--maybe I can send netmail to you, since you're beloved by all! ;> Love is the law, love under will. RD 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Rakshasa Area: MagickNet To: Josh Norton 11 Aug 93 09:03:52 Subject: Re: THAT TOME UpdReq > Wiley Coyote seems to me to be more of a Job figure than a > trickster. > He's just trying to get himself a meal, like any other poor joe; and > no > matter what he does, the gods keep giving him the shaft. > > The Road Runner hardly seems to have enough personality to deserve > deification. I hadn't thought of it that way, but I guess you're right... now for the episode when the animator speaks to him out of the whirlwind and tells him, "I'm in charge, butthead." Could you see the Road Runner as symbolic of "Enlightenment." Thus, no matter how hard the poor Coyote tries, he will never quite reach him. However, on several occasions when he has been sitting around scheming, the Road Runner has come very close to him... even looking over his shoulder. But, alas, the Coyote grabs and Enlightenment slips away. There are many who have drawn correlaries between art and magick. Since (IMHO) the Road Runner/Bugs Bunny cartoons are some of the best art of our century, it's not surprising that there are many Godforms in there. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Rakshasa Area: MagickNet To: Beorn 11 Aug 93 09:13:10 Subject: Re: HELP!!! UpdReq > One of the lessons I've learned from my recent experiment in despair > is compassion, oddly enough. Knowing the darkness within me has > helped > me to see it manifest in the eyes of the rest of us. I also got a > badly > needed attitude adjustment. I had a similar experience during my last (and in many ways worst) bout with depression. It seems the best way to engender compassion is to teach the Adept about suffering. (Sigh... would that they could find a somewhat easier way!) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Ismark Area: MagickNet To: Paladin 11 Aug 93 13:09:00 Subject: Re: THAT TOME UpdReq In a message dated 08-03-93 09:32 PALADIN wrote to KAYLA BLOCK: KB> if you don't mind me asking, how have you managed to get KB> access to old masonic libraries? P> P> a) be a Mason P> b) become friendly with the custodian of the library. P> P> Masonic Lodges are not the only place you find Masonic libraries. P> There are a number private Masonic libraries across the country. Just to add a bit to that: It's also a bit easier when you *are the library custodian . ...Truth is, after all, a moving target-Neil Peart -> Alice4Mac Eval:27Jul93 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Ismark Area: MagickNet To: Varden 11 Aug 93 13:21:00 Subject: Re: BAPHOMET UpdReq In a message dated 08-02-93 16:03 VARDEN wrote to ALL: V> also have Levi's History of Magic. I also have a copy of the 1923 V> edition of V> Pike's Morals and Dogma (no, I am NOT a freemason). Speaking of that V> book, I V> have heard that someone outside of the Freeason society is not V> supposed to have V> this book (Morals & Dogma), is there any truth in this? Not to *my* knowlege. There is a book in the Yorkrite that you aren't supposed to have, in fact it's supposed to be locked up but as far as your book goes, I don't think so. There isn't *supposed* to be anything written that we wouldn't want non-masons to see. Therefore, if you have something that you aren't supposed to have then it's more the writer's fault than yours. If one really wants to they can dig up information on the masons. And even if they did it'd make little difference, you can sit and read about it, all fine and well, but it's not about reading about it, it has to be experienced to truly understand it. I'll give you 20 to 1 odds that someone will disagree with me though. :) ...Truth is, after all, a moving target-Neil Peart -> Alice4Mac Eval:27Jul93 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Ismark Area: MagickNet To: Kayla Block 11 Aug 93 13:57:00 Subject: Re: THAT TOME UpdReq In a message dated 08-06-93 23:46 KAYLA BLOCK wrote to PALADIN: KB> 93 paladin, KB> KB> if you don't mind me asking, how have you managed to get KB> access to old masonic libraries? KB> P> a) be a Mason KB> KB> i'm female---i don't think they'd let me....\ Well, you could always pull a Mrs. Aldworth. She was this woman who did become a Mason in Ireland sometime in the late 17th or early 18th century. There are a few accounts on how this happened, as it seems no one can agree. But it did happen. ...Truth is, after all, a moving target-Neil Peart -> Alice4Mac Eval:27Jul93 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Ismark Area: MagickNet To: Joker 13 Aug 93 00:18:00 Subject: HI ALL UpdReq In a message dated 08-08-93 05:53 JOKER wrote to ISMARK: Is> Here's my advice: Don't listen to Milo. J> J> I kinda got that impression. Thanks. Anytime. :) Now what was your question again? ...We all must first be as fools to become wise. -> Alice4Mac Eval:27Jul93 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Ismark Area: MagickNet To: Beorn 13 Aug 93 00:26:00 Subject: Re: HELP!!! UpdReq In a message dated 08-08-93 22:28 BEORN wrote to ISMARK: B> People like *you* have restored *my* faith in humanity. The responses B> I've gotten have helped quite a bit. I've begun the see the light at B> the end of the tunnel...and for once it's not a subway train. I'm flattered. B> One of the lessons I've learned from my recent experiment in despair B> is compassion, oddly enough. Knowing the darkness within me has B> helped B> me to see it manifest in the eyes of the rest of us. I also got a B> badly B> needed attitude adjustment. B> B> PS: stole it B> B> ... Pain is the fuel of progress. It seems that it was *you* it was meant for after all. ...We all must first be as fools to become wise. -> Alice4Mac Eval:27Jul93 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Ismark Area: MagickNet To: Christeos Pir 13 Aug 93 00:31:00 Subject: Re: WEATHERFOLK UpdReq In a message dated 08-10-93 10:23 CHRISTEOS PIR wrote to THE HOBBIT: CP> OK, here's a simple spell for gator-warding... CP> CP> Take your 12-guage, some 00-Buck shells, a large raw steak or CP> freshly CP> killed chicken. Go to a part of the lake your opponent is known to CP> frequent, and set out the bait. Move back about 20 feet to a place CP> where he/she won't come up and surprise you (Gator: "BOO!" You: CP> "AAH!" Gun: "BANG!"), and wait. Oh yeah, load the gun. CP> CP> If the game warden comes, tell them you were just out there getting CP> ready to cook dinner, when this big-ass sumbitch comed up outa them CP> reeds, and natur'ly you had ta defend yerself, and, well, there ya CP> have CP> it! Hey! That's redneck magick from Liber Chewtobacco. It originated in the southeast. I'm a magus of this mystical form of enchantment. When armed with my 12 guage wand I'm all powerful. ...We all must first be as fools to become wise. -> Alice4Mac Eval:27Jul93 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Ismark Area: MagickNet To: Stryder 13 Aug 93 00:37:00 Subject: Re: MILO UpdReq In a message dated 08-10-93 21:41 STRYDER wrote to ALARIC THURYN: S> Do you want my personal opinion? |) I remember the day I just S> happened S> to leave the television on a channel one morning and he came on S> television S> and announced to the world that the Girl Scout of America is a Pagan S> Organization. I find it difficult to believe that even Robertson is this warped. Could you please elaborate on this story? I love to hear stories of the man's lunacy. ...We all must first be as fools to become wise. -> Alice4Mac Eval:27Jul93 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Rose Dawn Area: MagickNet To: Kayla Block 13 Aug 93 07:09:40 Subject: Re: SHAMANISM & C.M. UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Kayla! > hmmm...i can't quite figure why you would be emphasizing "ISTIC" in > shamanistic. am i missing something here? Well, I'm not Grendel, but do you mind if I throw my $0.02 in? Shamanistic techniques would be those borrowed from, or similar to, techniques used in shamanism, without BEING shamanism. There are many new age practitioners claiming to be shamans these days--maybe neo-shamanistic would be the proper term? > also, either you know different sorts of magicians than i know, or > we have different ideas aboutwhat constitutes shamanistic > techniques. in what ways do you see most ceremonial magicians > incorporating shamanistic techniques into their work? (most of the Well, I can see some similarities. Traditional shamans are usually highly trained individuals for one thing, and usually go through an initiation (or several) before practicing. They usually have, or are thought to have, the ability to serve as a link between the physical and spirit world; or the mundane and magick realms. And they use rituals, such as drumming, chant, dance, magick plants, etc. to achieve a "trance" state by which they reach the other realms. They have specific modes of dress, ritual "tools" gestures and modes of symbolism. Not that the specific rituals, tools, chants, etc. are identical with western ceremonial magick--or even superficially all that similar--but the methods themselves have a sort of similarity about them. DISCLAIMER: I am not an anthropologist! ;> 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Rakshasa Area: MagickNet To: Josh Norton 13 Aug 93 08:17:28 Subject: Re: MAGIC VS TECH CULTURES UpdReq > In technological cultures there is also an expectation that anyone > who > desires to do so and has a reasonable intelligence can learn what is > > needed to design and build devices of any particular kind. The > "explanations" will work for anyone who learns them. In contrast, > the > "explanations" provided by a magician remain meaningless noises for > anyone who does not possess the necessary talents. They don't work > for > anyone who learns them. This isn't exactly the way many (I'd say most) Americans see computers, although this is changing. Most see computers as mystical beasts which screw up your tax returns and which are controlled by priests wearing polyester pants and pocket protectors. And of course doctors are considered a "priesthood" by many... including, unfortunately, some doctors. I'd say "magic" is "the technology only a few understand." As society progresses what was "magic" yesterday might not be today. (In the 50s computers were looked upon with a near-superstitious awe... then they were derided as machines which were good only for causing problems... now they're not really thought of much more than your TV or your Microwave. I could draw a parallel between this and this history of Christianity if I were so inclined). 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Rakshasa Area: MagickNet To: Starpath 13 Aug 93 08:19:44 Subject: Re: MILO UpdReq > I would like to point out that EVIL is a relitive term. I do NOT > belive in Evil. Evil impliess a force of destruction behind it. > The universe's energies are neutral to be used as one feels is > appropriate. If you give out negitive energy expect it back. The > same with positve energy. "What you give is what you get." Dont't > confuse a persons choice on how he/she uses their power witEvil or > Good. It is YOUR choice on how you act and treat others. I believe you intended this message to go to Nightcreeper, as I would in general agree with it. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Rose Dawn Area: MagickNet To: Josh Norton 13 Aug 93 08:24:42 Subject: Re: MAGIC VS TECH CULTURES UpdReq Hello Josh > And you've pointed up a significant difference between a "magical" > and a "technological" view: Even in cultures where it is considered "part of life", magick is dependent on talent. If you don't have the talent, > you can't do it. Technology, OTOH, is something anybody can use, > regardless of whether they have the specific knowledge to build the device in question. You can't go out and buy a flying carpet, but you can buy a car. Mind if I just add to the tautology here a bit? ;> I think people in a "magical" society are able to do just that. I can buy a car, but I don't have the education, talent, or sufficient interest in acquiring them to design and build one. Similarly, a person in a "magick-view" culture may not have the education and talent to produce magick results, but s/he CAN engage the services of the local shaman/priest/magician to produce those results, no? Anyone can use the RESULTS of technology, or the "produce" of technology in a tech-society; but not everyone can "create" it. Isn't it basically identical in a "magical" society? > As well, someone accustomed to technology can expect that a device > will reliably perform its task, every time it is used, so long as the > parts don't wear out. No such expectation can be made of magick. Again, I don't see that much difference, provided you're talking about a magick-oriented CULTURE, rather than a tech-culture in which some people practice magick. Unexpected power surges hose up my computer--cable teevee guys digging the neighborhood up knock my television signal out--9-mm's have a tendency to jam--frayed electrical cords start fires. Similar allowances are made for "glitches in the system" in magick-oriented cultures: the spirits are pissed to the healing didn't take; the gods reveal through their interpreter that there's a reason for the drought; the curse can't be broken until the individual who placed it does whatever; a member of the community has broken some big-time taboo & the whole society is paying the price, etc. > Meanwhile the "Europeans" with their technological view kept making > more goodies for themselves, without any concern at all over propitiating > the divine powers. And why should a Great Magician share his/her power indiscriminately? ;> The Cargo Cultists, in a way, copied the Altar Tools but didn't learn the rituals that go with them! It's funny in a way--magick-oriented cultures looking upon technology as a more powerful form of magick--and tech-oriented cultures looking at mystical/spiritual/magical experiences as a more advanced form of technology. Dont'cha think? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Rose Dawn Area: MagickNet To: Ismark 13 Aug 93 08:46:38 Subject: Re: WEATHERFOLK UpdReq Vell Vell Ismark, ve meet again! > Hey! That's redneck magick from Liber Chewtobacco. It originated > in the southeast. I'm a magus of this mystical form of enchantment. > When armed with my 12 guage wand I'm all powerful. And we all know that this form of magick has evolved...into... Homegirl Magick from Liber Hood! It originated in the Southeast also. Southeast DC and Southeast San Diego. I'm a IIId degree HighHomegirl. Well acquainted with the guardians of the quarters at 44th and Ocean; who have replaced the guardians at 14th & "P." The Sacred Mac-10 is the Wand of the High Homey. The Sacred Kevlar is Thy magick shield. Choose ye well thy colors, for there are red and blue! Ditto thy footwear, for BK has a secret meaning for those that have eyes to see. Let the profane see British Knights. The initiates know the deeper mysteries. The mudra are many and the way is subtle. Care must be taken before thou throwest down on the Street! Verily, if thy number be 37, art thou not Cuzz? I shall give to thee a word of power, and that word is: Yo! Listen well to the words of the scribe Treach and harken thereto. They can be found in the last lines of "Everything's Gonna... ." (If you ain't never...don't ever...cuzz you wouldn't...so stay the...). ;> Word to the NBN, the Brethren. I be sidewayz! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Fir Area: MagickNet To: Titus Vandessel 14 Aug 93 07:21:00 Subject: Magical Childe UpdReq TV> Since it has been a year now since Herman's death, and the shop TV> is still thriving, I'd say that those rumours are definitely TV> untrue. Glad to hear that. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Fir Area: MagickNet To: Ace Lightning 14 Aug 93 07:28:00 Subject: Occult Shops, NYC UpdReq AL> I think the store just sort of faded away after Herman died. AL> There are a lot of other "occult" stores in NYC, most of them AL> more congenial than Magickal Childe ever was. (The only reason AL> I ever even heard of it was when it was "The Warlock Shoppe", AL> and it was about the only place besides Spanish *botanicas* AL> that sold any kind of occult supplies or books at all. But that AL> was back in the Dark Ages.) When I left New York in 1981, I remember there being Tzipora and the Wizard and Magical Childe. For books I also shopped in Weisers, Stargazers (in Flushing), and sometimes The Quest Bookstore. Enchantments opened after I left. Magical Childe had such a large selection at the time. And you're right about the Spanish Botanicas. I used to buy my High John Root at a Latin Botanica in Flushing. Are there other new stores besides Enchantments? B.B. Fir 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Grendel Grettisson Area: MagickNet To: Rose Dawn 14 Aug 93 11:12:00 Subject: SHAMANISM & C.M. UpdReq > Well, I'm not Grendel, but do you mind if I throw my $0.02 in? me, scuse me, outa the way, fool!> > Shamanistic techniques would be those borrowed from, or similar > to, techniques used in shamanism, without BEING shamanism. There are > many new age practitioners claiming to be shamans these days--maybe > neo-shamanistic would be the proper term? Hey, that's concise! I'll have to save that one. I agree. Wassail, Grendel Grettisson 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: MagickNet To: Kenneth Freeman 13 Aug 93 22:05:00 Subject: Re: millenialist-mediums UpdReq Thus said Kenneth Freeman to Josh Norton concerning Re: millenialist-mediums: KF> This goes back at least as far as Olaf Stapledon's _First and Last KF> Men_ in the modern science fictional guise, and Victorian gentlemen KF> were forever stumbling upon mystic races while exploring the hollow KF> Earth, where everything but everything runs on vril. I think the KF> the 'race-soul' theme is a riff on Darwin. Evolution, however defined, KF> is one dandy mechanism for "progress"! You're right -- I forgot Stapledon. His writing style is so boring that he just doesn't register on my brain. I don't think this idea can be specifically related to Darwin, since it's non-fictional roots go back at least a century earlier. ("E Pluribus Unum", and all that.) It's spread in the form I described does date from that period, though, so maybe there is some connection somewhere. ... James Brown: I've fallen and I can't get down! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: MagickNet To: Beorn 13 Aug 93 21:28:02 Subject: Re: that tome UpdReq Thus said Beorn to Josh Norton concerning Re: that tome: JN> The Road Runner hardly seems to have enough personality to deserve JN> deification. Be> The Road Runner is the man of the Tao, wordlessly passing through this Be> world with no fixed destination. He is innocent, guileless, and not Be> caught up by either the Drama or the Coyotes of life. Hehe. I guess I can understand that. I used to reach oneness with the Tao by cranking my bike up to 120 or so and just going and going. ... Does Atlantis have the Buddha-nature? Mu! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: MagickNet To: Fir 13 Aug 93 21:09:06 Subject: Astrological background UpdReq Thus said Fir to Josh Norton concerning Astrological background: Fi> You mentioned in a post that your interpretation of a vision was Fi> influenced by your astrological background. Fi> Fi> I was also wondering if you have some fire in your chart. Fi> This question is based upon the Planetary Seniors of Earth Fi> working. Blessings, Fir Actually, by raw count the elements are pretty well balanced in my chart. The "mage of fire and earth" stuff that the Seniors referred to is based on the fact that I have Mercury at 0d50m Capricorn in the 10th house conjunct a Sag. midheaven, with Sol in Sag. conjunct the MC in the 9th house. By house position and by count and intensity of aspects, these two planets are relatively (but not absolutely) dominant. Fi> What is your astrological background, if you care to share? I was never an astrologer in the sense that term is normally used. What I did was devise a form of -- I guess "mental yoga" would be the best term -- using astrology as a base. This was based on the idea (implicit in astrology) that the basic magickal forces are already constantly present in our environment, and constantly influencing both ourselves and the events around us. This being the case, there is no need to go through arduous and inconvenient magickal practices in order to perceive and comprehend them. Instead, you merely has to sort them out from the real-time events of your daily life, and (much more importantly) from the changes they make in your own emotional and mental states. (Some people who've seen my write-up of the method have complained that it is actually _more_ work to use this method. But from my own viewpoint, it has its advantages. First, in that it reduces the necessary "magickal implements" from a plethora of elemental weapons, altars, robes, lamens, etc., down to a single "implement" -- a one-year ephemeris small enough to stick in your back pocket. Second, in that it doesn't require any special place of working; a vital requirement when you are living -- as I was -- in a noisy and crowded college dorm. And third, it has a number of beneficial side-effects, most important of which is that it gives you a thorough knowledge of your own nature. Anyway, I used this method constantly for five years, and with lesser intensity for another five, and through it I came to a fairly clear perception of the magickal forces as they affect us in our daily lives. I used these perceptions as the basis for most of my later interpretations of magickal symbols and events. ... Life imitates art, but does it have to imitate satire? ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: MagickNet To: Christeos Pir 14 Aug 93 19:29:00 Subject: magickal vs tech culture UpdReq Thus said Christeos Pir to Josh Norton concerning Elvis the savior: JN> I don't really think it applies to what I am thinking about, since the JN> technology in question doesn't exist at the time the vision of the JN> magickal version comes into the minds of the populace. JN> once a society becomes accustomed to the idea of technology, JN> then it tends to become the primary explanation of unusual phenomena; JN> magick -- "supernatural" causes or means -- becomes generally JN> discredited. In other words, any sufficiently advanced technology is JN> indistinguishable from advanced technology. CP> Now wait a minute, doggone it! First you say it doesn't apply because CP> we're talking about a primitive society's magick becoming today's CP> science (from palantir to video-phone, so to speak), and how Clarke's CP> Theorem doesn't apply because of the separation in time between the CP> two. Then you say that we're talking about a technological society, CP> and how they don't believe in magick (so how come modern Western CP> society calls what we term Magick as non-science?). So which is it? Both -- what's wrong with that? An idea can be wrong from several different points of view. Let me recap my points so we don't confuse the different parts of this discussion. My original argument (before getting sidetracked into Clarke) was that the early, mythical versions were _ideas_ working their way downwards through the planes. The reason that they appeared "magickal" was that there was no concept in their society for a natural means by which such tasks could be accomplished. Eventually the ideas worked their way down into the intellectual sphere of Hod, and craftsmen of various sorts started making connections between the concept and the possibilities of the physical world. And at that point they ceased to be magickal/mythical and started being practical and technological. You can see this sort of thing in the history of flight as well. The first, fantastic, ideas of flight were based either on magickal transformations into the form of a bird, or on the use of some mysterious, divine power to hold things aloft (e.g. levitating saints, witches broomsticks, magick carpets, Hindu gods' chariots and Egyptian gods' boats). Eventually some Hod-Netzach geniuses like DaVinci started getting the idea that flying required either being held up by the air or pushing against the air, and started trying to create devices on that basis. And at that point it began to stop being "magic" and started being a problem of craftmanship. Later, Bernoulli and others got the notions of aerodynamic lift and lift-to-weight ratios, and things (literally) took off. And writing appeared magickal when it first came into use. The whole mystique of "holy books" is based on this perception; a divine power is translated into words and held "frozen" in writing so that it's power carries on through generations. But that mystique started to fall apart when Gutenberg invented the printing press, and the Church started selling pre-printed "indulgences" by the hundreds of thousands. The simple ubiquity of printed materials has taken off the gloss to the point where people who believe books to be the literal "word of God" are considered mildly insane by the majority of the population. The point of all this is that, when a thing becomes commonly available it ceases to be magickal. It was the _impossibility_ of things like long-distance communication, flying, etc. that made them magickal in earlier societies. And similarly for such current magickal myths as the group-soul. All this should have been separate from my comments about Clarke, but I had some trouble shifting gears and ended up trying to blend the two in one message. Excuse the confusion. With respect to Clarke's "theorem", I agree that technology looks like magick _to_a_society_that_has_no_concept_of_technology_. The example I used in another message, the Cargo Cults, is a case in point. But the more a society becomes accustomed to technological solutions, the less need it has for the idea of magick and/or divine intervention as a means of performing mundane-world tasks. Why try to put a curse on someone when a bullet to the head or a smear campaign is more effective? Why try to use faith to move mountains when a bulldozer works ever so much better? What use summoning demons to find hidden treasure when most wealth is nothing more than electrical blips in a machine somewhere -- hire a hacker instead. Now, no culture ever makes a clean break with the past; modern cultures still have many elements that have their roots in the deep past. Genetic and neurological diversity ensures that there will always be some who are more comfortable with past ways of thought than those of the present. Besides, it's been little more than three generations since tech really took hold even in Western cultures; in conditions of such rapid change there are bound to be areas of disssonance between world- views of the most progressive and least progressive groups in the society. But on the whole I think the evidence does support my contention. ... Just think--how would Bugs Bunny have handled this? ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: MagickNet To: Kayla Block 14 Aug 93 13:54:02 Subject: Elvis the savior UpdReq Thus said Kayla Block to Josh Norton concerning Elvis the savior: KB> 93 josh norton, KB> "Elvis Christ Superstar" is on a few BBS's. if there's any KB> interest, i might post it here. it cabalistically PROVES KB> that elvis is the current lord of the aeon. By all means, let's see it! ... Is God dead, or is he just swapped out? ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: MagickNet To: Christeos Pir 14 Aug 93 20:31:04 Subject: magic vs tech cultures UpdReq Thus said Christeos Pir to Josh Norton concerning magic vs tech cultures: JN> And you've pointed up a significant difference between a "magical" and JN> a "technological" view: Even in cultures where it is considered "part JN> of life", magick is dependent on talent. If you don't have the talent, JN> you can't do it. Technology, OTOH, is something anybody can use, JN> regardless of whether they have the specific knowledge to build the JN> device in question. You can't go out and buy a flying carpet, but you JN> can buy a car. CP> But driving, like "magick," must be learned. And if you think that CP> anyone can buy a car and start driving, you haven't driven on I-495. Aw, c'mon! There's a big difference between the few hours it takes to learn the rules of driving (and the few man-days of practice needed) and the amount of work needed to become competent at performing some task by magickal means. Aren't you the fellow who was bitching that you didn't have enough time to try my complicated Enochian exercises? I doubt you'd make the same claim about learning to operate a dishwasher or telephone. Even those folks on I-495 drive well enough to get from one place to another, most of the time. Imagine trying to teach them to do the same thing by levitating or teleporting! This argument is wandering all over the place; I suspect that if we continue much longer each of us will end up proving the other fellow's point! Maybe we'd better let it lie before I completely lose the thread. ... Saner than an Emu on acid, barely! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: SCHEHERAZADE Area: MagickNet To: ALL 14 Aug 93 00:49:54 Subject: Alchemy UpdReq Do any of you know the addresses of some Alchemical Organizations? I have just finished reading "The Alchemists Handbook" (for about the one hundredth time!) and I would like to know more than just book-knowledge about this subject. Any info would be most helpful. Thanks, Scheherazade 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Shekhinah Area: MagickNet To: Kayla Block 13 Aug 93 22:44:12 Subject: shamanism & c.m. UpdReq Hi Kayla, > i'm wondering if anyone out there has ever utilized shamanistic > techniques within a ceremonial magick framework? I was recently going through a book that seems to be the sort of thing you're after. Unfortunately, I've just moved house and I can't find it. Give me a few days and I'll dig it out of whatever box it's in and give you some details on it. Remind me if I haven't got back to you in case I forget :) B*B, -=*S*=- ... Alzheimer Adv. #35: Old novels are full of new surprises. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Earth Mater Area: MagickNet To: Chameleon Rex 13 Aug 93 22:28:24 Subject: Re: Magick Intro UpdReq CR> Sorry, my humour detector must be on the fritz: "keep brushing yer CR> teeth so you won't get cavities?!?!???"... CR> As in "too much white light & warm fuzzies" or what?! I guess - rather on the syrupy sweet side. She has some good stuff in it tho, but then will turn around & be all overly sweet. I think it is a good "starter" book. ... Don't be fooled; Things ARE more complicated than they seem. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Albert Saperstein Area: MagickNet To: Kayla Block 15 Aug 93 12:29:38 Subject: THAT tome Sent UpdReq A number of people here in New York had the dubious privilege of working with the editor, "Simon" (a.k.a. Peter Levenda), and the book itself when it was still in manuscript form. "Simon" stuck to his guns with his official cover story of having received the original manuscript from a couple of Eastern Orthodox monks in the practice of trafficking in stolen literary rarities. Both Slater and this guy Cabal maintained that Simon had written the thing from sources available in the rare book room of the 5th Avenue branch (the Main branch) of the New York Public Library and material available at the University of Pennsylvania library in Philly, including Samuel Noah Kramer's unpublished (at that time) Sumerian-English lexicon. Cabal even went so far as to photocopy source materials from U. of Penn and constructed several "Sumerian" rituals whole cloth simply to prove that it could be done. Aside from the Lovecraft references and names, the thing stands as a valid MODEL of a Sumerian grimoire. The attempts to link the Sumerian myth cycle with the Lovecraft mythos strike me as sophomoric melodrama. Also bear in mind that Slater and Cabal collectively registered off the scale when it came to obnoxiousness, and Slater was a well-known disinformation machine. He would spread weird rumors just for the fun of it. Cabal (at the time I knew him) seemed honest enough, but a TRULY borderline personality and a raving drunk to boot. He seems to have vanished... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Fillander Kishpa Area: MagickNet To: Alaric Thuryn 12 Aug 93 17:02:00 Subject: Milo UpdReq AT:>> I do not belive in rituals, it is to strait forward into evil. AT:>GASP! You mean to tell me that the Xian rituals of Baptism, Communion, etc. AT:>are paths to evil also?!? Does this mean that Pat Robertson is in league AT:>with the Devil? Oo, oo! That would mean the Pope is Lucifer's Right hand man!!! FK * OLX 2.1 TD * A pun is the lowest form of pastry. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718