From: Christeos Pir Area: MagickNet To: Azoth 11 Aug 93 11:52:24 Subject: Re: THE NECRONOMICON UpdReq -=> Azoth sent a message to Christeos Pir on 10 Aug 93 19:36:13 <=- -=> Re: Re: THE NECRONOMICON <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Az> Old story, told it to Nachash last year on NightSide. He Az> disappeared a while after that. Coincidence? };-] "Them that eats cakes, that the Parsee-man bakes, makes DREADFUL mistakes!" Az> I did conclude from the exercise, however, that the 19th Az> Key has uses in calling other than Enochian entities and Az> traveling the Aethyrs. I also found that the distorted Az> pentacle in the _Nigromancia_ works _great_ as a base Az> for a crystal (like Aemeth is used) in NightSide working. Interesting to know, but I've got enough Sh*t in my life without opening any black boxes just yet. ;-) Guess I'll have to face them sometime, but I ain't nowheres near ready to take the Oath of the Abyss just yet anyhow. Love is the law, love under will. - Christeos Pir ... Yea! I gave her of the flower of my youth. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: DOMINIC ASPEL Area: MagickNet To: Mark O. Garrison 10 Aug 93 10:11:00 Subject: Re: THAT tome UpdReq MOG> I assume from the way you are so influenced by the fundamental >interpretations of the Revelation of John of Patmos that you have little or no >background studying Apocalyptic Literature. During the time of the Babylonian >and Roman Occupations, the most often written literature was Apocalyptic. They Never thought of it that way. But in so doing, it makes alot of things fall into place and make more sense that ever before. In all the reading I've been doing, I've come to admire the Babylonian civilization. Thanks to the old Xian influence, I felt the admiration was 'wrong'. Once again the Wisdom comes forth and clears my eyes! :) MOG> damned by God and they would once again be free...Anyways, the point being >this, there is a plethora of Apocalyptic Literature, all saying similar but >varied things...and second of all, the end times have been continuously Ain't this the truth! Even as an Xian, I fought many over this one point. Everyone seemed to feel that we were not going to die in this generation, but rather we would be raptured. We waited for 2000 years, and the wait seemed to go on. The reason I hated this idea so much was just the basic human desire to succeed! My Xian teachers kept telling me that man-kind was going to fail, no matter what he did. This really stuck in my side, I wanted us all to pass. MOG> Also, Judaism has always supported Magic...any Rabbi will tell you Something I am finding out from many sources. MOG> If need be, consider it, for now, your goal to rebuild those things >that these Xtians (as you once were) had destroyed. Work not so much for >yourself, but instead for others...for those generations yet to come...build >something that will endure beyond your lifetime... You people keep giving me more and more definitions for the magickal arts! :) Each time someone writes to me, it seems it's goal can be re-defined. It almost sounds like you're calling magi those who are archeologists(sp ?) that practice what they learn. An exciting term, eh? DA> Here's a question for you and anybody else who reads this. When DA> you first started to explore the occult sciences, did you ever feel like DA> someone/thing was leading you? I mean not just strange co-incedences, MOG> Yes, indeed I have. In a way, I believe we all have. It is called your >"Higher Self!" This concept is also called by other names--"WILL" (True Will) The "oddities" keep popping up all over the place! In the last few weeks it's almost become a game for me. I work in a control room at an ex- plosives plant, and with my free time, I read several books. Things have come to the point where litterally the hair on my neck stands up on end only moments before any alarm sounds. If this keeps up, I won't even need the alarms anymore! I know what some people are going to ask before they do, dreams come true, and joy...heh, talk about being in the best mood of my life, so very little pisses me off anymore. I could go on, but they are probly things that everyone here already knows about. All of these little events began to fall into place as I just about turned my back on the occult world, thinking it was just another group of people that had conviced themselves it was real. MOG> Oh, by the way, have you been keeping a journal of all of these Yes I have, and it makes for some of my better reading! :) MOG> I know what you mean.:) Supplication , however, can be an effective >method of magic (yes, prayer is a form of magic! ). However, there are I understand that all of these methods are ways of achieving a good measure of concentration on the task at hand, it's just prayer wasn't my cup-o'-tea. MOG> recesses of your unconscious self...to incorporate that part of your mind >to your consciousness. So, I guess you could say that by Invocation, we >explore and assimilate that part of the mind. Does this eliminate the existance of Divinity in you opinion? MOG> Unfortunately, not every occultist is as discerning as you appear to >be. :) Many have been duped by such dubious and fictitious works. At the risk of starting another thread like the one I got going a couple of weeks ago, i.e. That Tome :), a couple of years ago I saw the movie Warlock, ( I know...I know ). Anyway, the story centered around the "Grand Grimmoire". I have come to find that the book does exist, I think, and am wondering what it really is about. The move stated that it held the "secret name of God. When spoken backwards it would undo Creation". Yes, I realize this *is* all fantasy, but what does the book really contain? Hey, kid, you with the blond hair and blue eyes, yeah you, the un-baptised one, come here...:) DA> I started a couple of days after I sent the first message, I DA> guess I'll just put aside my "anger" for now and learn from the experts. MOG> Sounds like you have a plan! :) :) In time, you will start to discover >the mythology and symbology inside of yourself...then, you will have the tools It's about freaking time, I'm so sick of "wandering in the desert". It really feels good to have a purpose other than just to see whats out there. I wanted to quote and reply more, but as it is I had to do this reply from a captured file, the BBS I call had a message base crash of sorts. TKS Mark... ... MONEY TALKS ... but all mine ever says is GOODBYE! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Ace Lightning Area: MagickNet To: Fir 12 Aug 93 23:50:52 Subject: THAT tome UpdReq I think the store just sort of faded away after Herman died. There are a lot of other "occult" stores in NYC, most of them more congenial than Magickal Childe ever was. (The only reason I ever even heard of it was when it was "The Warlock Shoppe", and it was about the only place besides Spanish *botanicas* that sold any kind of occult supplies or books at all. But that was back in the Dark Ages.) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Ken Uzzell Area: MagickNet To: Triple Six 13 Aug 93 16:43:00 Subject: Eckankar UpdReq Hi Triple, On (07 Aug 93), Triple Six writes to Chris Olmstead: TS> I do appreciate the info you and Thomas have provided. At least TS> I know more now than I did. CO>> Let us know what you find, TS> Will do. I'm still hoping that someone else on the echo TS> can provide more info. I might be able to help you with abitmore information about Eckankar. What would you like to know ? How did the meeting on the Plane of Disks go ? <-< | Pale Rider sent a message to Christeos Pir on 09 Aug 93 06:29:00 <=- -=> Re: Re: Vision/Voice <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. PR> I know this sounds crazy, but I have a couple of questions for you. Yeah, you'd _have_ to be crazy to ask _me_ a question! ;-) PR> Do you know of any ritual in which people sit around a circle and PR> have on white capes? The cape has no arms and goes almost to the PR> knees. Not specifically... could be just about anyone, I reckon. Wasn't a bunch of Red Cross nurses, was it? Love is the law, love under will. - Christeos Pir ... as a harlot that plucks a jewel from her nostrils. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Christeos Pir Area: MagickNet To: Josh Norton 12 Aug 93 23:28:38 Subject: Elvis the savior UpdReq -=> Josh Norton sent a message to Christeos Pir on 09 Aug 93 14:40:00 <=- -=> Re: Elvis the savior <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. JN> I don't really think it applies to what I am thinking about, since the JN> technology in question doesn't exist at the time the vision of the JN> magickal version comes into the minds of the populace. JN> once a society becomes accustomed to the idea of technology, JN> then it tends to become the primary explanation of unusual phenomena; JN> magick -- "supernatural" causes or means -- becomes generally JN> discredited. In other words, any sufficiently advanced technology is JN> indistinguishable from advanced technology. Now wait a minute, doggone it! First you say it doesn't apply because we're talking about a primitive society's magick becoming today's science (from palantir to video-phone, so to speak), and how Clarke's Theorem doesn't apply because of the separation in time between the two. Then you say that we're talking about a technological society, and how they don't believe in magick (so how come modern Western society calls what we term Magick as non-science?). So which is it? JN> Oh, it's already literally true; the only thing missing is a formal JN> priesthood. An acquaintance of mine from Antioch went to Graceland and JN> spent a couple of weeks interviewing pilgrims. He found that among a JN> minority Elvis has already become a substitute Jesus-figure, with JN> reports of miracles, healings, and visitations, etc. There's even JN> accounts of persons having received a Divine Grace by prayers to him. JN> And there's a thriving business in fragments of Elvis' clothes, etc., JN> similar to the medieval traffic in pieces of the True Cross. Scary, innit? JN> ... "I would to God that thou and I knew where a commodity of white JN> elephants were to be had." -- Shakespeare, "Henry IV" And... "No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public." Love is the law, love under will. - Christeos Pir ... O thou Serpent Apep, my Lord Adonai, it is a speck of minutest time, 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Christeos Pir Area: MagickNet To: Josh Norton 12 Aug 93 23:42:02 Subject: magic vs tech cultures UpdReq -=> Josh Norton sent a message to Rakshasa on 11 Aug 93 11:54:02 <=- -=> Re: magic vs tech cultures <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. JN> And you've pointed up a significant difference between a "magical" and JN> a "technological" view: Even in cultures where it is considered "part JN> of life", magick is dependent on talent. If you don't have the talent, JN> you can't do it. Technology, OTOH, is something anybody can use, JN> regardless of whether they have the specific knowledge to build the JN> device in question. You can't go out and buy a flying carpet, but you JN> can buy a car. But driving, like "magick," must be learned. And if you think that anyone can buy a car and start driving, you haven't driven on I-495. JN> As well, someone accustomed to technology can expect that a device JN> will reliably perform its task, every time it is used, so long as the JN> parts don't wear out. This from someone who uses a computer? ;-) JN> In technological cultures there is also an expectation that anyone who JN> desires to do so and has a reasonable intelligence can learn what is JN> needed to design and build devices of any particular kind. The JN> "explanations" will work for anyone who learns them. In contrast, the JN> "explanations" provided by a magician remain meaningless noises for JN> anyone who does not possess the necessary talents. They don't work for JN> anyone who learns them. I'm not convinced it's as pat as that. Perhaps, given our society's orientation, a statistically higher percentage of the population has the necessary talents to learn to work with technology as opposed to magick. But that may also be because the necessary talents for technological competence are encouraged and helped to grow, while those necessary for magickal competence are denied from the earliest stages of personal development -- even before we learn literacy. In other cultures, however, the reverse is true even today. JN> The only problem JN> was, it didn't work reliably. Some pilot with engine trouble might JN> rarely use one of their strips for an emergency landing (thus JN> reinforcing their belief) but on the whole the great airplanes and JN> their precious Cargo blithely flew on past. And what's the difference between that and a Westerner who thinks that all that's necessary to work Magick is to repeat an odd bit of rhyming spell, no muss, no fuss, and no "juice" needed? Not trying to be argumentative here... I just don't think it's all that different as you say. Love is the law, love under will. - Christeos Pir ... Thy name is Death, it may be, or Shame, or Love. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Farrell McGovern Area: MagickNet To: NightCreeper 13 Aug 93 13:56:40 Subject: This Echo Group UpdReq In a msg on , NightCreeper of 1:170/811 writes: Ra>> > I do not belive in rituals, it is to strait forward Ra>> > into evil. Ra>> Ra>> Then why, may I ask, are you posting on MagickNet? N> Are you suggesting this echo is ONLY about rituals? N> Gee, I have gotten many messages on this subject, and I think N> I'll keep a little quiet and just watch from now on.. N> You'd think 'people that talk truth would be a little bit more N> flexable to others thoughts.. But like I said above.. This echo is for the discussion of anything relating to Magick. It is the only echo where Satanisms, Thelemites, Witches, Asatru, Erisians, Mooists, Christians, and just about any religious persausion has chatted about Magick. ttyl Farrell Moderator 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Kayla Block Area: MagickNet To: Josh Norton 13 Aug 93 00:36:30 Subject: Elvis the savior UpdReq 93 josh norton, "Elvis Christ Superstar" is on a few BBS's. if there's any interest, i might post it here. it cabalistically PROVES that elvis is the current lord of the aeon. 93, ---kayla 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Kayla Block Area: MagickNet To: Grendel Grettisson 13 Aug 93 00:40:22 Subject: shamanism & c.m. UpdReq 93 grendel, GG> I would consider trancework to be shamanistic. I plan GG> on incorporating more shamanic techniques in some of my GG> work but I'm also going to be working a bit with a can you tell me more about what you mean by trancework in this context? GG> Hermetic Lodge that I'm helping to found so I'm not GG> sure if I will have the time to do a lot of that sort GG> of work. do you see shamanisitic techniques as being antithetical to hermetic type work? (it seems like it wouldn't be, yet i don't know too many hermeticists who utilize shamanistic stuff.) 93, ---kayla 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Kayla Block Area: MagickNet To: Beorn 13 Aug 93 00:45:06 Subject: Ritual? UpdReq 93 beorn, NC> I do not belive in rituals, it is to strait forward into evil. CP> So much for Mass. KB> ......or even brushing your teeth!!! B> or picking up your PODS mail! B> ha-ha-ha he-he-he....... (uh-oh, i better stp calling these boards!) 93, ---kayla 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Kayla Block Area: MagickNet To: Thomas Palmer 13 Aug 93 01:23:20 Subject: Re: THAT tome UpdReq 93 thomas, TP> I am Senior Warden of a Lodge in Denver, CO. (For non- TP> masons, that means I have TP> been a lodge officer for 6 years, will be Master of the YES! i've been waiting to hear back on this from an actual mason. i had not heard anything about mason's admitting women before. when i've been in a masonic temple, i've only seen pictures of masonic men. so, you have confirmed my suspicions here. TP> The Ancient, Free, and Accepted Masons, or any other TP> Masonic group for that TP> matter, is NOT required by law to admit women. Masonry is classed as a TP> fraternal organization, and fraternal organizations can TP> descriminate legally TP> in some instances based on gender, race, hair color, height, disability or TP> lack thereof, National origin, etc. this is really very interesting. i didn't realize that basically fraternal organizations were able to do all of these things. as far as i know, this means that fraternal organizations are about the only entity in this country that can legally discriminate. TP> To do this they must meet strict definitions imposed by law and recieve TP> absolutely no public funds for their activities. The Masonic Lodge is TP> funded by the Membership directly. To my knowledge, Masonry (or any do you mean strict definitions of what constitutes a fraternal organization? i would imagine that somewhere in time, at least one "fraternal organization" has been legally challenged on discrimination laws, but i don't know of any cases. it would be interesting to find out. TP> educational purposes which is tax exempt. If the IRS could get to it with TP> discrimination laws, they would have done so. why would the IRS be able to get at it under discrimination laws, regardless of the type of organization? (apparently there is something in tax law that i don't understand, here). TP> many judges, lawyers, and politicians within the fraternity would have TP> seen to it that the fraternity confromed to the letter of the law. yes, i was surprised that the mason's would have been ordered to admit women. partly, in fact, from the number of judges, lawyer's, and even presidents, congressmen, etc., who are members. thanks for the info, thomas! 93, ---kayla 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Commander Barbarella Area: MagickNet To: Brian Hicks 10 Aug 93 07:26:42 Subject: Re: ufo UpdReq Brian Hicks has been charged with the crime of consorting with Dathan Shane Tinney. The evidence: BH> You are a deranged psychopath if you've seen UFOS. Unless of BH> course you were on acid at the time. BH> BH> BH> Goat That's not a nice thing to say. Just because YOU haven't seen one, who's to say he didn't. There is a town here in Florida, that has claimed that most of the population has seen them on more than one occasion. Barb 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Rose Dawn Area: MagickNet To: Kayla Block 10 Aug 93 11:28:46 Subject: Re: WOMEN & MASONRY UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Kayla As to women & Masonry couldn't tell ya, but: > don't see how they could get away with that. once a supreme court > decision is made on sex discrimination cases, at least a few token > women would have had to be let in. I *do* remember a case--written up in the _Los Angeles Daily Journal_ as a matter of fact!--where a woman sued the Hells Angels on the basis of gender discrimination. I've yet to see a female flying the R&W! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Mark O. Garrison Area: MagickNet To: Thomas Palmer 12 Aug 93 19:58:62 Subject: RE: MASONRY and Women UpdReq DO WHAT THOU WILT SHALL BE THE WHOLE OF THE LAW In a message dated 10 Aug 93 09:18:00, Thomas Palmer wrote: -=> Quoting Mark O. Garrison to Kayla Block <=- MOG> In a message dated 06 Aug 93 23:46:20, Kayla Block wrote: KB> if you don't mind me asking, how have you managed to get KB> access to old masonic libraries? P> a) be a Mason KB> i'm female---i don't think they'd let me....\ MOG> Kayla, I thought that the U.S. Supreme Court decided back in, I MOG> think it was 89, that to not admit women into a Masonic Order was MOG> sexual discrimination. They ruled that a Masonic group, in the United MOG> States, by law, had to admit women (and the women auxiliary, the MOG> Eastern Star, does not count! ), they could not seperate genders MOG> into two distinct groups and deny membership from one or the other MOG> based solely upon gender. TP> Ahem, I'm sorry, I hope you are not coming down with a cold (or is your computer coming down with a virus?)! :) :) .....impressive credentials deleted for space.... TP> The Ancient, Free, and Accepted Masons, or any other Masonic group TP> for that matter, is NOT required by law to admit women. Masonry is TP> classed as a fraternal organization, and fraternal organizations can TP> descriminate legally in some instances based on gender, race, hair color, TP> height, disability or lack thereof, National origin, etc. TP> To do this they must meet strict definitions imposed by law and TP> recieve absolutely no public funds for their activities. The Masonic TP> Lodge is funded by the Membership directly. To my knowledge, Masonry (or TP> any other fraternal order, for that matter) has yet to be challenged by TP> any legal authority for discriminatory practices. Thank You, Thomas for replying to our question/statements. We were awaiting a reply from our resident mason--Paladin, but as you are obviously much versed in this area, your reply is indeed more than ample to clarify the A.F.A.Masons' official stance on the eligibility of women into Masonry. Thank You! :) :) The information I was refering to in my above post--as being a couple years back-was bound to be erroneous. That is why we were awaiting information on the extent or validity of this from Paladin. What I knew of this decision came from my memory of an article about an individual's suit against a particular lodge for ineligibility of membership based upon gender...My memory tends to be quite good, but on occassion, I admit it can indeed be quite off (especially with reading such an article only in PASSING--while compiling information on a report--several years past!). Although, I remember hearing shortly thereafter that such a ruling on said case was made, with a little bit of thought on the matter I realized two things: that it very well may have been District (or State) Court rather than Supreme Court (this would not be the first time that I had confused the two! ), and that if it had indeed gone to the Supreme Court, then VERY likely the ruling had have been overturned. In the light of the knowledge that the Ancient and Accepted Order of Freemasons do not recieve Public Funding of any sort, I feel what you have said to ring very and quite True. I recall the recent Supreme Court (and yes, in this case I do know for sure that it wasn't District) decision in the landmark case of a private party (a wiccan who had been fired due to her religious beliefs) vs. the Salvation Army. The Supreme Court decided that as long as an organization (whether it be Private or Public) receives a single penny of Federal funding, then, they must adhere to the same Discrimination Laws regardless. However, if the organization is Private and receives no Federal Funding, whatsoever, then it is up to the discretion of the organization to do as they will on this matter. Anyways, your post, as it has clarified the official stance of the order on the admittance of women was appreciated. TP> On a less legalistic note, Membership is not a right, but a privlege. TP> It take only two (in some states one) dissenting vote (Black Ball) to TP> prevent membership or advancement. This must cause a lot of unintentional "politics" and necessary "kissing-up" in order to keep oneself in good graces. You would think to be fair they would make it a necessary decision by Tribunal in the least... :) :) TP> It is also a part of the Obligation of a Master Mason to not admit to TP> the fraternity," a woman, an old man in his dotage, a young man in his TP> nonage, a madman, an atheist or a fool, knowing him or them to be such." Yes, I (and Kayla, and many others) have been very familiar with this, that is why the subject and question had been brought up. Alot of us who are members in the O.T.O. or those whom study the occult tend to read many Masonic texts...and are thusly are quite familiar with much in masonry...there are many similar interests betwixt the two, as I see that you do indeed realize. :) :) Gee, you can not allow admittance of a "young man in his nonage, a madman, an atheist and a fool?" I guess that excludes me from membership on four accounts! :) :) TP> Masonry is not secretive about this, and if it were against any law, TP> the many judges, lawyers, and politicians within the fraternity would TP> have seen to it that the fraternity confromed to the letter of the law. Point taken, indeed. I understand what you are trying to say here, although, however, you must confess that the logic in this above statement is rather faulty. Who can say that these judges, lawyers, and politicians whom are members of masonry would have their loyalties be other than to the order and to their oaths as above stated. If they had taken the Oath of the Master Mason...part of which is to exclude said types from membership in their order...then, if those men indeed have honour, then they would truly honour their oaths. Thusly, their agenda and loyalty would be thusly biased...they would be restricted by honour from upholding (or rallying for) a law which is in direct violation of such a primary oath. Just a side-thought, though. :) :) And of course, as every common middle-class person knows, you can not (any longer, at least) trust a politician to do the "right" thing, not unless money is involved from a particular lobby to do such! :) :)...And what was that that Shakespeare had said about lawyers...;) ;) (That's just a joke, I prithee that you do not take it otherwise!) Anyways, Thank You ever so graciously for the time you had taken for your post. It has been greatly appreciated to be clarified and informed "officially" on this topic...Thank You, again. Love is the law, love under will, Mark O. Garrison Fr. Ormus Io O.T.O. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Mark O. Garrison Area: MagickNet To: Anwyn 12 Aug 93 21:12:62 Subject: MASONRY AND WOMEN UpdReq DO WHAT THOU WILT SHALL BE THE WHOLE OF THE LAW In a message dated 05 Feb 80 01:20:07, Anwyn wrote: MOG> Kayla, I thought that the U.S. Supreme Court decided back in, I think MOG> it was '89, that to not admit women into a Masonic Order was sexual MOG> discrimination. They ruled that a Masonic group, in the United States, MOG> by law, had to admit women (and the women auxiliary, the Eastern Star, MOG> does not count! ), they could not seperate genders into two MOG> distinct groups and deny membership from one or the other based solely MOG> upon gender. Of course, this does not mean that they do...I'm sure that MOG> they could find some other reason for not admitting you, other than your MOG> gender! A> Could you please provide a citation of this ruling. Such a ruling A> would be such an outrageous violation of peoples inalienable rights to A> freely assemble and to choose their associates. So outrageous, in fact, A> that I doubt that the court has actually ruled as you state. I am aware A> that the court has shown an increasing tendency to ignore the constitution A> in a way that infringes on the rights of a free people, but I was not A> aware that they had gone this far! As I believe I had mentioned, it was simply something that I had recalled reading about (in passing--while doing a research paper on modern Masonry) back in '89. I no longer have any reference to such said article or ruling. However, I am sure that with the proper resources, one would have no trouble whatsoever discovering what had truly occurred. As I was rather unsure of whether this decision was so, or not (and I am most truly sorry that in my original post I did not come across this way) I was hoping that one of the resident Masons here could give us more information on this topic. A very kindly gentleman, Thomas Palmer, a Senior Warden of a Lodge in Denver was most helpful in replying to this same post to clarify that there was no such ruling made by the Supreme Court (unless of course that there may have been a case, but obviously overruled...but, most likely what I had read was about a case in District Court--that likewise was probably in actuallity ruled in favour of the particular Masonic Lodge, if not dismissed altogether!). I prithee that you are able to see my reply to Thomas Palmer...I realized, upon his given information that the Ancient and Accepted Order of Masonry does not recieve any form of public funding, that indeed the U.S. Supreme Court could not have decided in favour of discrimination for this fact alone (in addition to the fact that masonry is also a "Private" organization, and thusly, by merits of these two, is free from such governmental regulations in said matters!). His post has reminded me of the Landmark Decision the Supreme Court made in concerns with a case where an individual whom was fired from the Salvation Army due to Religious Discrimination because she was a Wiccan. Although the Salvation Army was a Private AND Religious Organization, they recieved Public Funds, and as long as the Salvation Army chose to continue to accept even a solitary penny of Public Funding, the Supreme Court ruled that they were obligated to the same Discrimination Laws as a Public Organization. This would likewise hold true for any-other Private and Religious and Fraternal Organization...but since, as I was so kindly informed, the Masons do not receive any form of Public Funding, they are quite freely, and correctly allowed to do as they will in such matters... I agree, wholeheartedly with you, that every individual's rights are sacred. Being a Thelemite, I am, myself, dedicated to the personal fight for the freedoms and inalienable rights for the individual...And furthermore, I agree that, since Masonic orders do not recieve Public Funding, they HAVE the right to choose for themselves who they will to choose to join their order...HOWEVER, that does not mean that I feel that Sexual Discrimination in any form is morally "right." I feel that IF it was a woman's True Will to join as such a sexually exclusive "Boy's Club" as the Masons, then how can anyone say "nay." "Thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that and no other shall say nay." AL I:42-3. To restrict that woman from membership because of her gender is to take away that woman's right as an individual. Granted, membership in masonry is a "priveledge" but why must that said "priveledge" be restricted solely to men (besides of course, the sexually-biased tradition that has been so propagated by Xtianity)? After all, is it really that much of a "priveledge" to be a man over that of women? And, can you really truly consider it an infringement upon members' rights if masonry was required to allow women equally? Just why, might I ask, are men in masonry so opposed to women (besides their Master Mason Oath! ) being involved in their order? Anyways...:) :) Anyways, I would like to extend my apologies for any offences I may have made...it was by no means intended (though I am sure the preceeding paragraph in this post probably just might give you the wrong impression about that ). I was hoping that we could get an "official" statement on this topic...and I was thusly most pleased with Thomas Palmer's intelligent and informative post which helped clarify this very matter of the legality of the masonic stance of the ineligibility of women into their order. But nonetheless, it was not my intention whatsoever to mislead or misconstrue...I hope that you might be able to forgive my most seemingly grievous offence.... Love is the law, love under will, Mark O. Garrison 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: SCHEHERAZADE Area: MagickNet To: ALL 13 Aug 93 00:52:52 Subject: Magicians UpdReq 770 Does anyone here know whether Jimmy Page (guitarist of Led Zeppelin) is still actively involved in the occult? Last I heard, he owned many occult stores in England, but my source could not be verified. Any info? Scheherazade 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Albert Saperstein Area: MagickNet To: Fillander Kishpa 14 Aug 93 12:10:28 Subject: Tarot Sent UpdReq Get the Crowley deck and the BOOK OF THOTH. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Albert Saperstein Area: MagickNet To: Ace Lightning 14 Aug 93 12:15:52 Subject: THAT tome Sent UpdReq There's a lot of misinformation going on here about the MAGICKAL CHILDE. The shop is alive and well. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Albert Saperstein Area: MagickNet To: Kayla Block 14 Aug 93 12:19:32 Subject: Elvis the savior Sent UpdReq Are you lonesome tonight? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Albert Saperstein Area: MagickNet To: Kayla Block 14 Aug 93 12:21:36 Subject: Re: THAT tome Sent UpdReq From my observation, Freemasonry and the Roman church are two hands of the same malignant authoritarian patriarchal dungheap... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Albert Saperstein Area: MagickNet To: Commander Barbarella 14 Aug 93 12:23:16 Subject: Re: ufo Sent UpdReq God hates Florida. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Albert Saperstein Area: MagickNet To: Scheherazade 14 Aug 93 12:26:56 Subject: Magicians Sent UpdReq He owns the ATLANTIS bookstore and recently sold Boleskine for a song in a depressed real-estate market. Seems to be getting a bit low on liquidity. Could be you'll be seeing a LedZep reunion soon... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: The Hobbit Area: MagickNet To: Beorn 12 Aug 93 18:31:54 Subject: Help!!! UpdReq -=> Quoting Beorn to Grizzly <=- Be> However, not to worry. I've contacted the local counseling Be> center...and am going on retreat with a Sufi mediation teacher next Be> weekend. He seems to specialize in helping people in distress to stand Be> on their own feet. My Pagan belief in the sanctity of all life Be> (including my own) will keep me from doing anything stupid. Hang in there Beorn. A year ago I was so depressed that the only reasons I didn't take the easy way out were that my parents didn't deserve to go through that and my belief in re-incarnation. After all If you don't deal with your lessons this time around you will have to next time. I got help and things are 200% better. You won't believe how much things can turn around. ... We're lost but we're making good time. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: The Hobbit Area: MagickNet To: Kayla Block 12 Aug 93 20:42:58 Subject: Saint norton UpdReq -=> Quoting Kayla Block to Josh Norton <=- KB> 93 josh norton, KB> i forgot that emperor norton was mentioned in the illuminatus trilogy. KB> the emperor is still frequently talked about in the bay area. O.k. already my curiosity can't take it anymore. Can you pretty please enlighten an ignorant Floridian who has never read the illuminatus trilogy? Who is Emperor Norton? I think I may have heard the name before but havent a clue as to in what context. ... I inherited my curiosity from my cat. Why do you ask? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: The Hobbit Area: MagickNet To: Mark O. Garrison 12 Aug 93 21:01:58 Subject: Alchemy UpdReq -=> Quoting Mark O. Garrison to Fir <=- MOG> Serpents Occult also has this very MOG> same version available for the same cost...Their number is MOG> 1-904-760-7675. Hey! I live within the 904 area code. Where is Serpents Occult located? Do they have a store or are they just mail order? ... * <--Tribble . <--TRIBBLE.ZIP 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: The Hobbit Area: MagickNet To: Brian Hicks 12 Aug 93 21:13:16 Subject: ufo UpdReq -=> Quoting Brian Hicks to Dathan Shane Tinney <=- BH> You are a deranged psychopath if you've seen UFOS. Unless of course BH> you were on acid at the time. My you certainly are a diplomat. U.F.O stands for Unidentified Flying Object. If you've ever seen something moving through the air that you can't identify it is a U.F.O. by definition. I myself have seen some very strange things and I have never done drugs. I don't know what they were and in one instance where just about everyone in town saw what ever it was the Air Force denied there was anything there at all. Even though when I spoted it there were 3 USAF jets chasing it. I suppose it could have been a spaceship but if I knew for sure then it whouldn't be a UFO it would be a spaceship. Yes this is very nit picking but it gets on my nerves. ... If this is Tourist season, why can't I shoot any? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Beorn Area: MagickNet To: Grizzly 12 Aug 93 08:25:00 Subject: Help!!! UpdReq -=> Quoting Grizzly to Beorn <=- Bn>It took me *years* to get to this point. The stigma attached to getting Bn>counseling doesn't help much, either. Gr> I'm sure it doesn't...... That is one of the many things in this Gr> world I don't quite get.. They used to think it was possession by devils: therefore you're evil. Now it's more like: "You're weak"...as if one could somehow stiffen up one's upper lip and magically stop hurting. Gr> Good luck!! And I know this may sound strange but I hope you had a Gr> good time! It was very intense...sometimes I was in absolute despair, sometimes waves of bliss, other times a profound quite. I've brought back a bit of perspective (I hope). How's things going with your friend? I've been so busy with my own stuff that I dumped all non-personal mail in the bit bucket until now. ... If you knew Sufi like I knew Sufi... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718