From: Thomas Palmer Area: MagickNet To: Mark O. Garrison 10 Aug 93 09:18:00 Subject: Re: THAT tome UpdReq -=> Quoting Mark O. Garrison to Kayla Block <=- MOG> DO WHAT THOU WILT SHALL BE THE WHOLE OF THE LAW MOG> In a message dated 06 Aug 93 23:46:20, Kayla Block wrote: KB> if you don't mind me asking, how have you managed to get KB> access to old masonic libraries? P> a) be a Mason KB> i'm female---i don't think they'd let me....\ MOG> Kayla, I thought that the U.S. Supreme Court decided back in, I MOG> think it was 89, that to not admit women into a Masonic Order was MOG> sexual discrimination. They ruled that a Masonic group, in the United MOG> States, by law, had to admit women (and the women auxiliary, the MOG> Eastern Star, does not count! ), they could not seperate genders MOG> into two distinct groups and deny membership from one or the other MOG> based solely upon gender. Ahem, I am Senior Warden of a Lodge in Denver, CO. (For non-masons, that means I have been a lodge officer for 6 years, will be Master of the Lodge next year and am required to know the Book of Constitutions of the Grand Lodge of Colorado's guidelines on nearly everything.) The Ancient, Free, and Accepted Masons, or any other Masonic group for that matter, is NOT required by law to admit women. Masonry is classed as a fraternal organization, and fraternal organizations can descriminate legally in some instances based on gender, race, hair color, height, disability or lack thereof, National origin, etc. To do this they must meet strict definitions imposed by law and recieve absolutely no public funds for their activities. The Masonic Lodge is funded by the Membership directly. To my knowledge, Masonry (or any other fraternal order, for that matter) has yet to be challenged by any legal authority for discriminatory practices. As an aside, Masonry has large amount of money dedicated to benevolent and educational purposes which is tax exempt. If the IRS could get to it with discrimination laws, they would have done so. On a less legalistic note, Membership is not a right, but a privlege. It take only two (in some states one) dissenting vote (Black Ball) to prevent membership or advancement. It is also a part of the Obligation of a Master Mason to not admit to the fraternity," a woman, an old man in his dotage, a young man in his nonage, a madman, an atheist or a fool, knowing him or them to be such." Masonry is not secretive about this, and if it were against any law, the many judges, lawyers, and politicians within the fraternity would have seen to it that the fraternity confromed to the letter of the law. From the West of a lodge of Master Masons, Thomas Palmer ... Unable to locate Coffee -- Operator Halted! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Ktamorel Area: MagickNet To: Chris Olmstead 8 Aug 93 23:00:02 Subject: Re: Charles Tart UpdReq Hi Chris, I'm sure this is a bit off-topic (now Ive said it I guess I can continue :) but I was wondering if you'd had any dialog with Charles Tart lately or know what he's working on? CO> This stuff is squarely in the field I'd like to study CO> professionally, so an article by my esteemed hero Dr. Tart would make CO> my day. Ive been corresponding with the Monroe Institue in Virginia, and noticed Dr Tart was listed as on the Board of Advisors. As the Institute is heavily into altered states, I gather it would be right up his alley. Perhaps you'd better reply in _Mundane_ :] Regards, kTamorel ... "Yield to temptation, it may not pass your way again." - L. Long ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: anwyn Area: MagickNet To: All Subject: THAT tome UpdReq From: anwyn@flight.hrnowl.lonestar.org (anwyn) Newsgroups: mag.magiknet Subject: THAT tome Mark.O..Garrison@f7.n349.z1.fidonet.org writes in article <744887256.AA01287@urchin.fidonet.org>: > Kayla, I thought that the U.S. Supreme Court decided back in, I think it > was 89, that to not admit women into a Masonic Order was sexual discrimination. > They ruled that a Masonic group, in the United States, by law, had to admit > women (and the women auxiliary, the Eastern Star, does not count! ), they > could not seperate genders into two distinct groups and deny membership from > one or the other based solely upon gender. Of course, this does not mean that > they do...I'm sure that they could find some other reason for not admitting > you, other than your gender; but, it is now your right! Could you please provide a citation of this ruling. Such a ruling would be such an outrageous violation of peoples inalienable rights to freely assemble and to choose their associates. So outrageous, in fact, that I doubt that the court has actually ruled as you state. I am aware that the court has shown an increasing tendency to ignore the constitution in a way that infringes on the rights of a free people, but I was not aware that they had gone this far! > Anyways, I'm not sure if it is any matter that you'd really be too > worried or excited about anyways! But, thought I would throw that in...The U.S. > government is behind you anyways! And, Heaven knows that it is very rare for > them to be on the "right" (politically correct) side of things! ;) The "right" side of things is a horrendous assault on human rights! > Take care, I shall talk to you later. > > Mark O. Garrison > > anwyn@hrnowl.lonestar.org (Sysop horned Owl BBS) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: MagickNet To: Christeos Pir 9 Aug 93 14:40:00 Subject: Elvis the savior UpdReq Thus said Christeos Pir to Josh Norton concerning Elvis the savior: JN> I don't really think it applies to what I am thinking about, since the JN> technology in question doesn't exist at the time the vision of the JN> magickal version comes into the minds of the populace. CP> CP> And why doesn't that apply as well, just because they're separated in CP> time? After all, time's just another dimension. CP> (Given the rules of the game,) I find the Theorem applicable there CP> just as well as when the Bushman sees the airplane, or whatever. Aside from the logical flaw in Clarke's Theorem, I think there's a more significant practical flaw, first pointed out by Neil Smith. That is, that once a society becomes accustomed to the idea of technology, then it tends to become the primary explanation of unusual phenomena; magick -- "supernatural" causes or means -- becomes generally discredited. In other words, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from advanced technology. JN> Hear then, O my people, the Key to the Mysteries of Elvis: CP> _This_ is how you spend your time? You need to get out more, BR! ;-) Hehe. I had this same discussion with the editor of "Abrasax" magazine a few years ago; all I had to do was dredge it up out of my letter file. CP> The scary thing is that you're not only theoretically right, but may CP> be literally right: I can truly envision a full-blown Elvis cult. Not CP> just the personality worship we see now, which might only be the CP> beginnings, but a true religious sect based on it. Oh, it's already literally true; the only thing missing is a formal priesthood. An acquaintance of mine from Antioch went to Graceland and spent a couple of weeks interviewing pilgrims. He found that among a minority Elvis has already become a substitute Jesus-figure, with reports of miracles, healings, and visitations, etc. There's even accounts of persons having received a Divine Grace by prayers to him. And there's a thriving business in fragments of Elvis' clothes, etc., similar to the medieval traffic in pieces of the True Cross. ... "I would to God that thou and I knew where a commodity of white elephants were to be had." -- Shakespeare, "Henry IV" ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: MagickNet To: Chris Olmstead 9 Aug 93 12:14:02 Subject: Travel? UpdReq Thus said Chris Olmstead to Josh Norton concerning Travel?: JN> Heehee...They only did it on nights of the full moon. And since I grew JN> this beard, they can't tell that I've changed until it's too late. CO> Say Josh, CO> Do you ever travel to fests? CO> Was wondering if you plan to be at Dragonfest next week. CO> This I gotta see. Sorry, I almost never go to fests anymore; I soak up vibes like a sponge, and trying to balance a few hundred peoples' contradictory peak experiences produces an effect like 2000 mikes of acid. Very schizoid. These days I prefer my highs in a more manageable form. ... I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: MagickNet To: Chris Olmstead 9 Aug 93 14:43:04 Subject: Star woman? UpdReq Thus said Chris Olmstead to Josh Norton concerning Star woman?: JN> She appeared to myself and a friend in my apartment, JN> along with her oft-seen companions, the Old Man with the Book and the JN> Young Man with the Staff. My friend, a poet, interpreted her as the JN> spirit of the World Ocean (i.e., the Earth Mother in a watery form), JN> and her companions as the spirits of Gnosis and Creativity. She JN> reminded me more of the Tarot card "The Priestess" except fecund JN> instead of virginal, and my astrological background brought up JN> associations of Jupiter and Mercury for her companions. JN> JN> Among other clusters in the group, one was Xtian-oriented and one was JN> concentrating on the Urantia book. She appear separately to both these JN> groups, and their interpretations were what one would expect given JN> Vallee's hypothesis. The Xtians saw her as Mary, accompanied by Joseph JN> and St. John, and the Urantists saw her as the Star-woman with her JN> pilot and executive officer. CO> Josh, for those of us who have been under a rock since CO> 1973, would you care to walk through this one a bit more CO> slowly? I know of the Urantia Book...but could never wade CO> through it. CO> Is this "Star Woman" the same wench that George Adamski CO> professed to meet, in his 'contact' pocket books from the CO> '50's? Is there a 'Star-Woman' (Pilot) in the Urantia Book? Not that I can remember -- it's been over a decade since I read it. Urantia develops a mythos of a sort of intergalactic Evolution Corps, which travels the universe encouraging the development of spiritual beings on backwards planets like our own. I admit that I could never keep all the details of it straight, either. The Star-woman is just one of the forms taken by something that, in itself, appears to be a complete, capital-M Mystery. Most "divine" manifestations tend to provide an image or context by which the person who sees them can understand them; this one seems to content to simply manifest itself without frills of any kind, and to allow whoever sees it to make their own interpretations. Comprehension on their part doesn't seem to be one of her priorities. This being the case, people tend to plug her into whatever myth-system they happen to be using, typically as the Virgin Mary in Xtian countries, and as the Star-woman in technological cultures. Hindu cultures generally see her as whatever goddess is closest to the witness's heart, though Parvati seems a popular image, for some reason. The best source for info about her and her two companions is Jacques Vallee's books; I forget which one has the details. He gathered a very comprehensive collection of UFO encounters and (from earlier periods) of "angelic" visitations, and set a computer to looking for similarities among the descriptions of these events. You can also find mention of her in R. A. Wilson's "The Cosmic Trigger: Masks of the Illuminati". While the Pilot and Herald figures are not part of any mythology I know of, they are common interpretations of the experience. CO> Care to mention just a little more about how you pursuaded her to CO> manifest to you? And would you care to be just a bit more elaborate CO> in relating 'archetypical meaning' to the characters you CO> discuss? CO> I can FOLLOW your assignments relating the Xtian CO> pantheon...but I guess I'm stumbling as I try to step back CO> and move one more rung up the ladder of abstraction. You CO> are speaking formulaically here...and I'm reaching for a CO> 'generic' value--some kind of Konstant. I didn't actually do anything deliberate; the manifestation seems to have been entirely spontaneous, or triggered by the general intensity of magickal forces surrounding the group with which I was working. My friend and I were just sitting in my apartment one night, trying to get high on some rather crappy pot, and there she was. The other two groups who encountered her were engaged in meditation exercises at the time she appeared. Even with twenty years to think on it, this event still confounds me; I can't provide it with any context in which it makes sense as part of my own life-situation, and have abandoned attempts to give it meaning. It happened; I can describe what we saw and felt, but interpretation seems futile. No possible interpretation can encompass the event as it was experienced; this is one of those cases where the best symbol for the event must be the event itself. Here's what happened; you can draw your own interpretations. My apartment was a two-room affair in an old house, and the combined bedroom/living room was about fifteen feet square with a twelve-foot ceiling. I was sitting cross-legged on my bed, centered against the outer wall of the room, and my friend was sitting on the couch with his feet propped on the bed. We were discussing some inconsequential matter, and one of us made a silly joke that got us both started giggling. But instead of fading away as the joke deserved, we both found ourselves laughing harder and harder, unable to stop. This continued for several minutes until we were exhausted. When we had caught our breath again, we both noticed that something had changed; physically the room seemed the same, but on the astral level we now felt like we were in the middle of some incredibly vast open space. Neither of us had willfully opened our astral vision; it seemed to have happened through some outside force, sometime while we were laughing. We were both in a changed state of consciousness, but neither of us was ever able to define the difference. Suddenly we both had a sense of a presence nearby, and we simultaneously looked towards the far wall of the room. There we saw a ball of soft blue light, about five feet in diameter. This ball seemed to radiate some pure distillation of the cosmic Female, an archetypal feminine energy stripped of all the other forces that appear in even the most feminine of human women, and amplified tremendously. And yet both of us were certain that this was not some abstract cosmic energy, but a genuine, self-directed being, independent of our minds. And this being was encompassing both of us within itself, for whatever purpose it intended. The force of her being was powerful enough to stop thought; we could do nothing for a period of about fifteen minutes except sit there stunned and let it wash over us. Then she reduced her level of output somewhat, and directed our attention to the fact that two other beings were present. To our left, next to the fireplace, was a silvery oblong of light, within which we could both see the image of an older man with a beard, robed in white, and holding a book in the crook of his left arm. He held some sort of device in his right hand, but neither of us saw it clearly. To our right was another silvery ovoid, in which we saw an image of a young man with dark hair and no beard, holding a tall staff upright in his left hand. He was wearing white pants and a white shirt with a v- neck and slightly larger-than-normal collar -- the sort of thing you would expect to see on a flashy-but-cheap pickup artist in some singles bar. Neither of these two radiated in the way that she did; from the older man, we got a sense of general competence, of a craftsman who knew his craft and didn't make judgments outside it. From the young one, we got not much more than a sense of virginal androgynity. Now, the intensity of the force seems to have been at its highest at the very beginning, and to have gradually reduced from that point on. As it reduced, we were both able to think more clearly. After noticing the two others, our minds were back to the point where they were trying to fill in the blanks with their own explanations. So I'm not certain how much of what followed was in the experience, and how much was in our minds. Since we came to the same interpretation independently, it must have some basis in the event. We got the impression that the appearance of these three was somehow an acknowledgement of the two of us. Not for what we were at that moment, but for what we had been in some past time, and for what we might be in a future time. We "heard" several things about our past lives, the details of which are irrelevant to this story. Then we were told that the three visitors were preparing the way for another manifestation, which would take place in the following nights. They seemed to turn to each other and link together, and then did something that cleared out the magickal atmosphere of the apartment of past impressions and events. It was quite an effective banishing, better than any I've ever been able to do, and left the place feeling like a freshly-cleaned slate. Having done that, they left suddenly, leaving behind ghostly images of themselves that lasted for another half-hour or so before fading out entirely. (Incidentally, the predicted events did happen the following nights. But I'm not going to attempt to describe them; they were totally impossible within any comprehensible human context, including the magickal context. I can't even speak of them in the roundabout form of magickal symbols.) We did not speak of these events to anyone else, and were surprised when the other two groups reported similar experiences in our house-meeting four nights later. The details of the appearances were very similar to our own, except that the intensity appeared to be somewhat less, and did not seem to have any personal component. When the Xtian group was down to the point where they could think again, they "received" a batch of new interpretations of biblical events. The space-buddies group received some details of the relationship between the Earth and two other star- systems -- the traditional Sirius and Pleiades. Each of them interpreted the identities of their visitors in the manner previously mentioned. Neither of these groups experienced the magickal house-cleaning that concluded our experience, nor were they promise further manifestations. ... Even the sonic screwdriver won't get you out of this one, Doctor! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: MagickNet To: Kayla Block 10 Aug 93 22:44:00 Subject: Elvis the savior UpdReq Thus said Kayla Block to Josh Norton concerning Elvis the savior: KB> hey! have you by chance seen my "in-depth" report "Elvis KB> Christ---Superstar"? it was originally published in the KB> Baphomet Breeze and has also floated around cyberspace a KB> bit. it sounds like you've been working on the follow-up KB> expose! Sorry, Kayla -- haven't seen it. I'll keep an eye out. ... Nuke the Gay Whales for Christ. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: MagickNet To: Rakshasa 11 Aug 93 11:54:02 Subject: magic vs tech cultures UpdReq Thus said Rakshasa to Josh Norton concerning Re: elvis the savior: > Hmmm. I've always had a problem with Clarke's Theorem. What > constitutes > "sufficiently advanced" technology? Ans: It looks like magic. If > someone > choses to see it as technology and not magic, then it isn't > "sufficiently" advanced. Circular. Ra> The only problem I see with your analysis is this; so far as I can Ra> tell, those cultures which practice magic don't really consider Ra> it as "magic" (that is, as something sacred, unusual, and Ra> special, set apart from the profane realm) but as just Ra> another part of everyday life. They don't see a duality Ra> between the magical and the mundane... all they know is Ra> that they can't explain why this behavior gets results, Ra> but it does. Well, I was interpreting "magic" according to what I believe was Clarke's intent: i.e., as something supernatural and miraculous in nature. Possibly the 30 years he's since spent in Sri Lanka has changed his view a bit. Ra> I can't explain why, when I pick up the receiver and push a few Ra> buttons, I can speak to someone halfway across the country. A Ra> primitive man can't explain why, when a shaman curses Ra> someone, that person dies shortly thereafter... or why the Ra> rains come after the rain dances. My using the phone is, Ra> in many ways, on a level with his use of the dance. I Ra> suspect that he finds that dance, and its attendant Ra> results, no more "magical" than I find getting hold of the Ra> right person when I dial the correct number. And you've pointed up a significant difference between a "magical" and a "technological" view: Even in cultures where it is considered "part of life", magick is dependent on talent. If you don't have the talent, you can't do it. Technology, OTOH, is something anybody can use, regardless of whether they have the specific knowledge to build the device in question. You can't go out and buy a flying carpet, but you can buy a car. As well, someone accustomed to technology can expect that a device will reliably perform its task, every time it is used, so long as the parts don't wear out. No such expectation can be made of magick. In technological cultures there is also an expectation that anyone who desires to do so and has a reasonable intelligence can learn what is needed to design and build devices of any particular kind. The "explanations" will work for anyone who learns them. In contrast, the "explanations" provided by a magician remain meaningless noises for anyone who does not possess the necessary talents. They don't work for anyone who learns them. The Cargo Cults are a good example of the difference between the usefulness of "magickal" explanations versus technological explanations. The Cultists saw the Europeans as people possessing a skill at magick superior to their own. Their explanation of all the wondrous devices the Europeans had was that their magick was so powerful that they could persuade their god to create these devices for them. God lived in the sky over Sydney, Australia and loaded up airplanes with goods, which then brought them down to his worshipers on Earth. In an effort to divert some of the European god's goodies to themselves, they built mock landing strips and mock airplanes, expecting that some of the airplanes would be fooled and would bring their goods to the Cultists. This "explanation" was perfectly in line with the tenets of their own culture. For the Cargo Cults, advanced techology really was indistinguishable from a miraculous, divine blessing. The only problem was, it didn't work reliably. Some pilot with engine trouble might rarely use one of their strips for an emergency landing (thus reinforcing their belief) but on the whole the great airplanes and their precious Cargo blithely flew on past. Meanwhile the "Europeans" with their technological view kept making more goodies for themselves, without any concern at all over propitiating the divine powers. ... Never knock on death's door; just ring the doorbell and run. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: MagickNet To: Fir 11 Aug 93 13:02:04 Subject: Getting from point a to UpdReq Thus said Fir to Josh Norton concerning Getting from point a to b: Fi> Say a person wants to get from point A to point B. Point A Fi> is being somewhat new to Ceremonial Magick and Point B is having Fi> dialogues with the Enochian Angels. What steps would you Fi> suggest an _individual_ take to get from Point A to Point B? Fi> Jeez, you don't want much, do you? Answering that question could easily get out of hand. I'll try to cut things down to the bare bones. The sort of visionary work I do is really nothing more than a semi- controlled, vivid form of daydreaming. The main differences from "normal" daydreams are that the person retains a greater degree of self- awareness, and has the ability to partially determine the contents of the dream, rather than letting it be completely a product of the unconscious or pre-conscious mind. The dream-mind becomes an interface between the conscious mind and the parts of the self that can communicate with the magickal universe (which are almost wholly in the preconscious realm). Developing this ability isn't really difficult; it just takes a while. It is a much easier task than -- for instance -- learning to speak. And usually it is a very pleasant task. All you need is practice, the patience to wait for results without expectations, and the determination to persist in the practices even when it looks like you're going nowhere. Your visual imagination is the key to this whole area, and any practice which increases your ability to use the imagination is going to bring you closer to being able to communicate with magickal beings. The two practices I think are best are called "pathworking" and "creating a sanctuary". In pathworking, you take some pre-determined image (usually a Tarot card) and use it as the basis for creating an imaginary drama in which you participate. By observing and interacting with the characters in the image, you learn something about the nature of the path in question. In creating a sanctuary, you are doing exactly what the name implies -- building an imaginary world that is wholly to your own liking, in which you feel perfectly safe, and which no one else can enter. It contains both permanent features (such as buildings and a landscape) and impermanent ones in the form of people, animals, symbolic creatures of various sorts, weather, etc. You enter into this world in your imagination for rest and relaxation, and by interacting with the various things that appear there you can learn things about yourself or your current life-situation that are not clear or are inaccessible to your mundane awareness. If you're interested, I'll put up some more details about how to do these two practices. ... White Elephant Enterprises -- Life would be a sorry place without us! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Grizzly Area: MagickNet To: Rakshasa 11 Aug 93 08:11:02 Subject: Re: HELP!!! UpdReq Ra>You're welcome... and, _please_ keep us posted on how this Ra>all turns out. If support from the peanut gallery makes Ra>any difference, I'm sure you'll succeed). I will certainly lket you know what happens. Any and all support is happily received. Thank you again. BB Grizzly ___ X DeLuxe2bc #5869 X Proof read carefully to see if you any words out 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Grizzly Area: MagickNet To: Beorn 11 Aug 93 08:11:10 Subject: Help!!! UpdReq Bn>It took me *years* to get to this point. The stigma attached to getting Bn>counseling doesn't help much, either. I'm sure it doesn't...... That is one of the many things in this world I don't quite get.. Bn>Thanks! Starting the process has lifted a big weight off my shoulders, Bn>& they're probably gonna start me on anti-depressants. Hopefully that Bn>will keep the despair away. As far as anything drastic goes, I think Bn>that my pagan beliefs are helping ward that off. I'm the kind of person Bn>that captures house flies and lets them loose outside, life is very Bn>precious to me, no matter how painful. Good!! I really am glad things have started down the right path for you. Bn>It's kinda funny: people here always talk about the bad things that Bn>happened to them around their initiations. I guess I overdid it, eh? Bn>Anyway, I'm just leaving for that Sufi thing, so I'll be off the the Bn>nets this weekend. Thanks for listening! Good luck!! And I know this may sound strange but I hope you had a good time! Bn>... Wake up little Sufi, wake up! Rolf!!! Grizzly ___ X DeLuxe2bc #5869 X Started your Christmas shopping yet? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: NightCreeper Area: MagickNet To: Airmid 10 Aug 93 08:07:00 Subject: Re: Rituals UpdReq Yes, quite so, I should have been more clear. It is to the point when you burn things, say strange words, or read from old books I do not belive in. As for brushing my teeth.. :) I think I had better do that. I belive true magick comes from within, More pure than any material object could affect. -NCVD- 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: NightCreeper Area: MagickNet To: Chaym 10 Aug 93 08:08:00 Subject: rituals UpdReq I explained this in another message, I hope it is more clear. Nc 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: NightCreeper Area: MagickNet To: Amonramos 10 Aug 93 08:11:00 Subject: Milo UpdReq Am> NI>Am> if you are concerned about the land and the people, do a Am> group ritual Am> NI>Am> to set things right. Am> NI> I do not belive in rituals, it is to strait forward into evil. The whole point I was tring to make was that rituals are not needed. it can be done from within, but you and others disagree, I respect that. it is your belifes, not mine. Just sharing my oppinion. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: NightCreeper Area: MagickNet To: Rakshasa 10 Aug 93 08:16:00 Subject: Re: MILO UpdReq Ra> > I do not belive in rituals, it is to strait forward into evil. Ra> Ra> Then why, may I ask, are you posting on MagickNet? Are you suggesting this echo is ONLY about rituals? Gee, I have gotten many messages on this subject, and I think I'll keep a little quiet and just watch from now on.. You'd think 'people that talk truth would be a little bit more flexable to others thoughts.. But like I said above.. CAU AnHKK -NCVD- >W<>W< 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: NightCreeper Area: MagickNet To: Ismark 10 Aug 93 08:18:00 Subject: Re: MILO UpdReq Is> What's all that stuff they do in the Catholic chruch, chopped liver? Heh, heh, I would'nt know, I'm not a Catholic. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: NightCreeper Area: MagickNet To: Gaia Ki 10 Aug 93 08:21:00 Subject: Re: Oklahoma and the storms... UpdReq I only wish there was some privet mail here.. I'm in the 918 area,(TULSA) and if you are in the calling range, I'd like to know what bbs to get ahold of you on.. I think I need to talk to you about those storms. -NC- 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Rakshasa Area: MagickNet To: Thomas Izaguirre 8 Aug 93 10:44:46 Subject: Re: SATAN, BUGS BUNNY, AND ME UpdReq > I believe that a kind of Elvis egregore may be taking shape, mostly > because of the hagiographical excess of his devotees. To an extent > Elvis Presley did have some archetypal appeal as a kind of > Orpheus/Adonis type figure but it is hard to pin down what forces > would shape to the "reality" of the fellow. Similarity to the > Egyptian custom of offerings to the dead is noteworthy here, for it > seems that that does establish some kind of link; not to the > deceased necessarily, but to what that deceased represented in the > minds of those kindly disposed to him/her. Similar attributions of > miracles have been reported of JFK and the Romanovs (many in the > Russian Orthodox Church wish the assassinated imperial family > canonized to sainthood as martyrs for the faith). Fortunately, this > mere devotion, however fervent, can only go so far. I say this > because otherwise there might be something to the Hundredth Monkey > phenonmenon. A critic of this myth (which has become the > cornerstone of some peace movements) said that it is more chillingly > Orwellian than Aquarian; what empowers is not the value of beliefs but > simply how many you have on your side. And, of course, we can't neglect the possibility that he's sitting back somewhere in a trailer park in Kalamazoo, Michigan popping placidyls and laughing hysterically at the blue-haired ladies who say he saved their poodle. _The Last Temptation of Christ_ has a scene where Jesus meets St. Paul and realizes the "Jesus" of mythology/Christianity has little or nothing to do with him. I wonder how Elvis would feel about his UFO-riding egregore. > He certainly didn't like that, that is why he is getting them where > it hurts: convincing them to risk stupid-ass programs that fail and > cost them a bundle, all the while the cable networks and stations > preserve the integrity of his original works! Indeed... praise Bugs! Xeper and Remanifest Rakshasa aka Adept Kevin T. Filan II* 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Kenneth Freeman Area: MagickNet To: Josh Norton 9 Aug 93 10:10:00 Subject: Re: MILLENIALIST-MEDIUMS UpdReq -=> Quoting Josh Norton to Rose Dawn <=- JN> The most common modern myth I've seen -- and one that bears on your JN> comment about lack of human evolution -- is the one about the creation JN> of a conscious, self-willed "race soul" out of the combined JN> consciousnesses of the individuals making up the human race. One sees JN> it in early SF in Arthur Clarke's "Childhood's End" and in the JN> Arisians of E.E. Smith's "Lensman" books. Many others have used the JN> same theme since. I think this constitutes a "modern" myth, since I JN> haven't seen it mentioned in any Western literature earlier than the JN> mid-1800's. In magick, Nema's "Maatian" system is predicated on the JN> future existence of such an entity, and it is used as a sidebar JN> feature in some others. This goes back at least as far as Olaf Stapledon's _First and Last Men_ in the modern science fictional guise, and Victorian gentlemen were forever stumbling upon mystic races while exploring the hollow Earth, where everything but everything runs on vril. I think the the 'race-soul' theme is a riff on Darwin. Evolution, however defined, is one dandy mechanism for "progress"! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: James Martin Area: MagickNet To: Amonramos 10 Aug 93 18:42:08 Subject: RE: That Tome UpdReq I would hardly even consider the Necronomicon worth the paper it's printed on. Although there are some gullable people out there who want to believe that they can control power and so the thing goes on. Seeker 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Airmid Area: MagickNet To: Kayla Block 10 Aug 93 10:31:00 Subject: Seattle Herbs UpdReq KB>93 fourth circle, KB>i was wondering if you, or anyone else up there in the seattle area could KB>tell me the name of a store that i visite about a year ago up there. i KB>believe it was in the u district. tiny little herb and essential oil store. KB>the store is kind of long and narrow with a counter that goes pretty much KB>across the length of the store. they also sell alot of incense there. KB>the reason i ask is because it is one of the few places that i've found that KB>could get siamese benzoin in quantity. any info anyone out there could tell KB>me would be tremendously appreciated. Sounds like you might have been to The Body Scent. I don't know that they do herbs as "herbs" but I have seen little packets of incense herbs there. You could also check with Tenzing Momo in the Pike Street Market, or failing that, perhaps with Market Spice, around the corner from them. OLX 2.1 TD Back Up My Hard Drive? I Can't Find The Reverse Switch! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Grendel Grettisson Area: MagickNet To: Kayla Block 11 Aug 93 14:27:00 Subject: shamanism & c.m. UpdReq > i'm wondering if anyone out there has ever utilized shamanistic > techniques within a ceremonial magick framework? I would say most magicians use shamanISTIC techniques. That just means they are similar to those used by shamans in some way. Now, whether they are doing shamanic work is another thing entirely. Wassail, Grendel Grettisson 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Grendel Grettisson Area: MagickNet To: Christeos Pir 11 Aug 93 14:28:00 Subject: Elvis the savior UpdReq > GG> I think you need to read Womack's _Heathern_, _Ambient_, > I don't know about "need," but it does sound pretty wild! But do > you think someone who never did like him (me) would enjoy them? I dunno. I never cared much for Elvis myself but the books are still great. _Ambient_ has a lot of gnostic thought in it as one of the characters is, unknowingly in a way, a messiah that has been promised. Wassail, Grendel Grettisson 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Fir Area: MagickNet To: DOMINIC ASPEL 11 Aug 93 18:35:00 Subject: Seven UpdReq DA> Anybody got any ideas as to why seven is so important? Or is Seven planets. B.B. Fir 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Starpath Area: MagickNet To: Rakshasa 11 Aug 93 19:30:00 Subject: MILO UpdReq RR> > I do not belive in rituals, it is to strait forward into RR>evil. I would like to point out that EVIL is a relitive term. I do NOT belive in Evil. Evil impliess a force of destruction behind it. The universe's energies are neutral to be used as one feels is appropriate. If you give out negitive energy expect it back. The same with positve energy. "What you give is what you get." Dont't confuse a persons choice on how he/she uses their power witEvil or Good. It is YOUR choice on how you act and treat others. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Starpath Area: MagickNet To: Brian Hicks 11 Aug 93 19:38:00 Subject: ufo UpdReq BH>You are a deranged psychopath if you've seen UFOS. Unless of BH>course you were on acid at the time. I take it you do not belive in UFO s? Don't you think it is a bit egotistical to believe that Mankind is the ONLY life in this great big universe of ours....or do you also think the world is flat and we are at the center of it? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Beorn Area: MagickNet To: The Hobbit 10 Aug 93 10:42:46 Subject: Re: Weatherfolk UpdReq TH> Oh please send a cold front to Florida! It was 99 degrees with 80% TH> humidity here yesterday. AND I don't have air conditioning :(. TH> Or else give me a spell to ward off alligators. I do live on a lake TH> but an 8 ft gator decided to move in last month and the game people TH> won't do anything about it. Well, the only way I can get you a cold front is with a package deal... it comes with a tropical storm or a hurricane attached to it. That's why it's so cheap. You'd be better off with the gator. Maybe if you burn some incence to the appropriate Egyptian God/dess, the gator will be placated? ... A log may soak for 10 years...but it will never become a crocodile! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Beorn Area: MagickNet To: Iktomiwin 10 Aug 93 10:53:38 Subject: Ssdhelp!!! UpdReq Ik> Your post sounded so terribly desparate that I just felt that I had to Ik> respond. Please, find a CODA group and get into a twelve step Ik> program. Not only will it help you to get through your stuff, It will Ik> open you up to many more magickal experiences too. Thanks! You are another of the wonderful-folk! I've begun to deal with the depression and while it is not gone, it is bearable. I just started psychotherapy *and* have begun to study the Sufi way. The first will help me get control over my life more, and the second has already helped me gain perspective. I just have to stick with them now. Ik> Honestly Beorn, you have to be prepared to have a good relationship. Ik> Like attracts like, and like CREATES like. When you are healthy, and Ik> content, than you will be able to assist others to be so. Until then, Ik> it is very likely that you will do more harm than good. I have seen what living in the path with no heart has done to me. I hope to find both passion and compassion as I heal. Ik> Get well, Cousin. If you wish, I will make smoke for you. I would be honored and blessed if you remembered both me and all those you know that are also hurting in your ceremonies. ... Pain is the fuel of progress. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Beorn Area: MagickNet To: Josh Norton 11 Aug 93 08:14:54 Subject: Re: that tome UpdReq JN> The Road Runner hardly seems to have enough personality to deserve JN> deification. The Road Runner is the man of the Tao, wordlessly passing through this world with no fixed destination. He is innocent, guileless, and not caught up by either the Drama or the Coyotes of life. ... I can't believe it's not Buddha. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Beorn Area: MagickNet To: Kayla Block 11 Aug 93 08:20:02 Subject: Ritual? UpdReq NC> I do not belive in rituals, it is to strait forward into evil. CP> So much for Mass. KB> ......or even brushing your teeth!!! or picking up your PODS mail! ... Drop your carrier ... we have you surrounded! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Chameleon Rex Area: MagickNet To: Earth Mater 12 Aug 93 09:39:44 Subject: Re: Magick Intro UpdReq Hello! Sorry, my humour detector must be on the fritz: "keep brushing yer teeth so you won't get cavities?!?!???"... As in "too much white light & warm fuzzies" or what?! Regards, C.R. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Farrell McGovern Area: MagickNet To: All 12 Aug 93 16:26:54 Subject: Milo UpdReq Hi! I have asked Milo's sysop to put him on read-only status for a time...if he can act more maturly & responsably, he will be given write access again. Thus, don't bother leaving him msgs...'tis cruel and unusual punnishment! ttyl Farrell Moderator 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Kayla Block Area: MagickNet To: Grendel Grettisson 12 Aug 93 00:59:34 Subject: Seattle Herbs UpdReq 93 grendel, > i was wondering if you, or anyone else up there in the seattle area > could tell me the name of a store that i visite about a year ago up > there. i believe it was in the u district. tiny little herb and > essential oil store. the store is kind of long and narrow with a GG> I know where it is (since I drink coffee a block away GG> every day during my class break) but don't remember the GG> name. If I get a chance, I'll try to swing by and take GG> a look. thanks grendel, i appreciate it! 93, ---kayla 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Kayla Block Area: MagickNet To: Airmid 12 Aug 93 01:02:04 Subject: Seattle Herbs UpdReq 93 airmid, A> anyone out there could tell KB>me would be tremendously appreciated. A> Sounds like you might have been to The Body Scent. I don't know that A> they do herbs as "herbs" but I have seen little packets of incense herbs A> there. A> You could also check with Tenzing Momo in the Pike Street Market, or A> failing that, perhaps with Market Spice, around the corner from them. thanks for the info., but no, the place i am thinking of wasn't any of those places, (though those are great places). but, it wounds like grendel is on to it. 93, ---kayla 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Kayla Block Area: MagickNet To: Grendel Grettisson 12 Aug 93 01:04:48 Subject: shamanism & c.m. UpdReq 93 grendel, > i'm wondering if anyone out there has ever utilized shamanistic > techniques within a ceremonial magick framework? GG> I would say most magicians use shamanISTIC techniques. hmmm...i can't quite figure why you would be emphasizing "ISTIC" in shamanistic. am i missing something here? also, either you know different sorts of magicians than i know, or we have different ideas aboutwhat constitutes shamanistic techniques. in what ways do you see most ceremonial magicians incorporating shamanistic techniques into their work? (most of the ceremonial people i know work within a golden dawn or thelemic framework. though i generally work from a thelemic framework myself, i find the western cabalistic ceremonial tradition to be a bit stilted at times. the only magicians who i know who i would say incorporate shamanistic techniques are some of the chaos magicians that i know.) do you, in anyway incorporate shaministic techniques into your own magical work? 93, ---kayla 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Kayla Block Area: MagickNet To: Paul Hume 12 Aug 93 02:04:22 Subject: Baphomet UpdReq 93 paul, PH> The Solve is on the downward pointing arm (right?) is PH> it not? And the coagula on the upward pointing (left?) PH> arm? Or am I reversing them? This ties into the PH> projective=right/receptive=left imagery of most western wow, if you haven't reversed them, this is really cool. i think i will check my levi book. it makes sense to me, so i would be disappointed if they were reversed. 93, ---kayla 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Kayla Block Area: MagickNet To: NightCreeper 12 Aug 93 02:07:56 Subject: Re: Rituals UpdReq what???? N> Yes, quite so, I should have been more clear. N> It is to the point when you burn things, say strange N> words, or read from old books I do not belive in. As waitaminute! catholics burn incense, do they not? strange words---well, what do you consider strange? strange usually means, not usual. that could cover quite a bit of territory. reading from old books? are you including the bible as an 'old book', because that book is much older than most magical grimoires. and, many practicing magicians do magical rituals from books which are quite new. N> for brushing my teeth.. :) I think I had better do that. N> I belive true magick comes from within, More pure than N> any material object could affect. what makes inner magick okay, and magickal ritual not okay? BTW, ritual is defined in my dictionary as: a prescribed form or method for performance of a religious or solemn ceremony; any body of rites or ceremony. does that sound evil? i don't know, but if you are going to spout off about the evil of doing ritual on an echo such as this, then i would suggest you spend some time thinking about what you are saying, so that you could at least adequately defend your point-of-view. as it is, you don't seem to be doing anything other than having a knee-jerk reaction. 93, ---kayla 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: V. H. Area: MagickNet To: Kayla Block 10 Aug 93 12:52:12 Subject: Women & Masonry UpdReq I try to follow sex discrimination cases, and I didn't hear anything about this ruling on Masonry. The only places I've heard about being ordered to admit women were places where business was discussed. Discussions of business are theoretically forbidden in Masonic Lodges, so they shouldn't be subject to the anti-discrimination laws. V. H. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Rose Dawn Area: MagickNet To: Joker 10 Aug 93 11:08:52 Subject: Re: INTRO MAGICK UpdReq A question: are you Tom J., who goes by Joker or Joker Tom? If not--nevermind! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Rose Dawn Area: MagickNet To: Christeos Pir 10 Aug 93 11:25:08 Subject: Re: ELVIS THE SAVIOR UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. > The scary thing is that you're not only theoretically right, but > may be > literally right: I can truly envision a full-blown Elvis cult. Not > just > the personality worship we see now, which might only be the > beginnings, but a true religious sect based on it. And why not? ;> Don't *most* religions begin on some level as personality cults? A charismatic leader who surrounds him/herself with disciples who then gloss over or omit any and all flaws in the leader's personality or philosophy and emphasize, magnify, or plain make up things to enhance it? Luckily I was a little young for Elvis-mania, so have managed to avoid being swept up by it. Having kids who shriek with laughter at anything post-mid-80's helps too. But, personally, I wouldn't pass up a chance to worship Anthony Kiedas... > Anyway, they've got it all wrong: Bob Marley was Jah's True Son, > who > died by the hand of Babylon to redeem the Fait'ful. Tell de trut' mahn! Hmmm, I guess this means the burden of propogating Marlefarianism falls on Ziggie's shoulders. Do you think he's up to the challenge? Unless one considers NBN's admirable sampling efforts--but that would indicate that a schizm has already occurred: purists in one corner, rasta-rappers in another. Uh--hail Shabba??? When we see Bob Marley impersonators cleaning up in Vegas, I suppose that would indicate something. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Mark O. Garrison Area: MagickNet To: Fir 11 Aug 93 08:49:62 Subject: MAGICKAL CHILDE UpdReq DO WHAT THOU WILT SHALL BE THE WHOLE OF THE LAW In a message dated 10 Aug 93 21:32:00, Fir wrote: MO> Yes, this is indeed true, or at least there is enough MO> information that exists that attributes such a relation. Even MO> the introduction to the Avon version of THE NECRONOMICON claims MO> such a participation on Herman Slater's part, although mind MO> you, it refers to him as the owner of the Magickal Childe MO> bookstore rather than by his name... F> Who would have figured? BTW do you know if rumors about the F> store closing in New York are true? It sure was a fun store F> to shop in. B.B. Fir I have indeed heard several rumours concerning the present and future status of The Magickal Childe bookstore in New York. Most of my information comes from the O.T.O. "Rumour Mill" though! By the way, I wonder if the O.T.O. has a Minister of Propaganda? ;) ;) Anyways, I have heard that the current owners are struggling to keep everything together...but it seems as if they are having a most difficult go at it! I guess Herman's shoes are really big to fill! :) :) They have no intentions of closing the store down, but from what I have heard, based upon their situation, this may soon become an inevitability. I have also heard that various members of the occult community have already started a "Betting Pool" on how long it will actually take for them to go under...so I guess things might actually be pretty grim afterall. Well, we could look at the positive side of things and realize that when someone is new at something, it takes a while to get used to things, to understand the "ropes" well enough to deal with everything...perhaps in time, the current owners will be able to run as "tight" of a "ship" as Herman did. I do hope the best for them, though. However, all in all, whether they get the business under control or not, I sincerely doubt that they are going to be able to design books as wonderfully as Herman did...there will be very few people who will ever be able to take his place or exceed in this area...Not to worry though. I suppose that gives me even more reason to hurry up with starting the Publishing Company I have had in the works! Hope this helped to satiate your curiousity, even if it is just "rumour!" Take Care, hope to speak with you soon. Love is the law, love under will, Mark O. Garrison 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Fir Area: MagickNet To: Josh Norton 12 Aug 93 08:15:00 Subject: Astrological Background UpdReq You mentioned in a post that your interpretation of a vision was influenced by your astrological background. What is your astrological background, if you care to share? I was also wondering if you have some fire in your chart. This question is based upon the Planetary Seniors of Earth working. Blessings, Fir 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Grendel Grettisson Area: MagickNet To: Kayla Block 12 Aug 93 14:02:00 Subject: shamanism & c.m. UpdReq > also, either you know different sorts of magicians than i know, or we > have different ideas aboutwhat constitutes shamanistic techniques. in > what ways do you see most ceremonial magicians incorporating shamanistic > techniques into their work? (most of the ceremonial people i know work > within a golden dawn or thelemic framework. though i generally work > from a thelemic framework myself, i find the western cabalistic > ceremonial tradition to be a bit stilted at times. the only magicians > who i know who i would say incorporate shamanistic techniques are some > of the chaos magicians that i know.) > do you, in anyway incorporate shaministic techniques into your own > magical work? I would consider trancework to be shamanistic. I plan on incorporating more shamanic techniques in some of my work but I'm also going to be working a bit with a Hermetic Lodge that I'm helping to found so I'm not sure if I will have the time to do a lot of that sort of work. Wassail, Grendel Grettisson 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Fir Area: MagickNet To: Christeos Pir 12 Aug 93 20:45:00 Subject: Seven UpdReq CP> Well, for starters, you have seven days of the week that CP> correspond to CP> the seven known planets (we're talking about the Old Days, CP> remember), CP> the seven whole tones of the Western musical scale, and Seven CP> Brides for Seven... oops, sorry. Not to mention the Stag of 7 tines. B.B. Fir 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Albert Saperstein Area: MagickNet To: Josh Norton 13 Aug 93 22:18:54 Subject: Elvis the savior Sent UpdReq And then there's BOB. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Albert Saperstein Area: MagickNet To: NightCreeper 13 Aug 93 22:25:24 Subject: Re: Rituals Sent UpdReq RE: brushing the teeth: Crowley said: "Cleanliness is next to Godliness, and should come first." 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Albert Saperstein Area: MagickNet To: NightCreeper 13 Aug 93 22:27:16 Subject: Re: MILO Sent UpdReq Truth is inflexible. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Albert Saperstein Area: MagickNet To: Fir 13 Aug 93 22:30:08 Subject: Seven Sent UpdReq It is the bridge between 6 and 8. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Albert Saperstein Area: MagickNet To: Beorn 13 Aug 93 22:31:56 Subject: Re: Weatherfolk Sent UpdReq God hates Florida. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Fillander Kishpa Area: MagickNet To: All 11 Aug 93 02:26:00 Subject: Tarot UpdReq What is the general feelings on Tarot decks, if this is the right place to ask. Also, anyone ever done "stream of consciousness" writing? Just writing what ever flows out, in whatever form, or words. I've done it once, and it was strange. Has anyone else done this? Peace, etc. FK * OLX 2.1 TD * We all live in a yellow subroutine. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718