From: The Grey man Area: MagickNet To: Steph 30 Sep 92 15:45:12 Subject: DISCUSSION UpdReq In a message to LADY TIMBER WOLF, you wrote: Sh> LTW> True Wicca has only been around for 50 years or so, Sh> That seems to be a bit of an arragant statement considering that the Sh> original Wicca was the belief system of the Anglo-Saxons of about Sh> 1,000 years ago who invented the word to describe their male Sh> 'preists' (the female being referred to as 'Wicce'). What!?! From what source do you get this? While there has been some discussion over the years about the possibility of the word "wicce" being the root word for witch, I have never recently heard anyone seriously claim that Wicca was the name of an ancient religion. There is just no evidence for it. As to Wicca being an ancient Anglo-Saxon religion, I would direct you to Ray Buckland's book on Seax-Wicca. He explains quite clearly that the reason he invented the religion (and he makes no bones whatsoever about having created it himself) was that he felt a personal need for Saxon imagery in Wicca and that there was *absolutely no evidence* for a Saxon witch cult comparable to Wicca. Sh> As the modern variant differs greatly from the original system I Sh> find it rather egotistical to claim a greater right to use the term Sh> to describe the belief system as 'Wicca' than the original belief Sh> system for which the word was invented to describe. The word was "invented to describe" a modern religion, Steph. Because of this, it is sensible not "egotistical to claim a greater right to use the term." Most, if not all, of Wicca's claims to antiquity are based on Margaret Murray's work, "The Witch-Cult in Western Europe." Sadly for those to whom this antiquity is important, Murray's book has been shown to be little more than wishful thinking. While I do not rule out the possibility of older surviving witch traditions (for example, I'm told that Vic Anderson's Faery Tradition can trace its roots back to the 1920's, which certainly makes it older than Gerald Gardner's trad and those based on it, but not older than Margaret Murray's book), I suspect that anyone claiming a history longer than 70 years is, at best, fooling themselves. Sh> I find this attitude to be similar to the modern fundamentalist Sh> christian practice of redifining the word 'christian' so as to not Sh> include other christians who believe different from their beliefs. It is far more like a Southern Baptist defining the term "Southern Baptist" so as not to include Roman Catholics. I find that quite reasonable. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: The Grey man Area: MagickNet To: Stephen Hovey 30 Sep 92 15:46:20 Subject: PAGAN SEMINARY UpdReq In a message dated 09-23-92, entitled PAGAN SEMINARY, STEPHEN HOVEY wrote to AIRMID: SH> I was in our only occult bookstore a few weeks ago and they had a SH> sign for 'wicca 101' at the low low price of only $60 a head. SH> Am I mistaken in the idea that to charge for 'classes' is to get on SH> the godess' bad side? SH> In any case, I thought it was in rather bad taste. Stephen, you are probably right. $60/person sounds incredibly high. There are some good reasons for charging for this kind of course. If the people giving the course have to pay to use the space, for example, it is reasonable to ask the students to help defray the cost. The same is true for supplies, refreshments, etc. Of course at that price, they could have held the class in a hotel ballroom... Grey 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Gerald Del Campo Area: MagickNet To: Kevin Bold 29 Sep 92 13:37:38 Subject: Re: All kindza stuff... UpdReq In a message dated 22 Sep 92 18:03:06, Kevin Bold wrote: KB> 93! 93 Bro! KB> I was beginning to wonder if a) you weren't getting my messages or b) KB> somebody was pissed at me for something, but since I didn't know KB> what, I was leaning to a). Good assumption :) KB> You'll be pleased to know that the company to which you submitted KB> your manuscript liked it, but thought it needed some work. I have KB> that in writing from one of their senior editors who told me about it KB> because you and I are both Thelemites. Naturally, I told him I knew KB> you. Yes I have heard. It has been cleaned up quite a bit; hopefully to their liking. BTW, this senior editor... is he a Thelemite? KB> You'll also be pleased to hear that a certain local yokel who likes KB> to make trouble for any magical body which he doesn't run himself has KB> nothing to do with any "hold up" of your manuscript. I'm learning KB> more about this guy all the time. Since he libeled me in his summer KB> solstice publication, people have practically been standing in line KB> to give me info on him. I'll tell you more if you either phone me KB> (if you don't have my number, say so and I'll mail it to you, or tell KB> me when you'll be home and I'll call you) or write to me at WRC-OTO. Send me your number. Or at least a place to send e-mail. Love is the Law. Gerald ... RPSTOVAL OASIS: Free your mind; your ass will follow. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Gerald Del Campo Area: MagickNet To: Nisaba 29 Sep 92 13:41:38 Subject: Re: Hub magazine UpdReq See ya on the Hub :) Love is the Law. Gerald ... RPSTOVAL OASIS: Free your mind; your ass will follow. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Lee Dohm Area: MagickNet To: Rakshasa 30 Sep 92 00:37:04 Subject: Re: discussion Rec'd UpdReq RA> 2) To (possibly) end the argument--why is it important that Wicca RA>_be_ an "Olde Religion?" Why can't the people who are RA>arguing say that "Wicca was created by RA>Gardner/Murray/Leland Stanford around 100 years ago. We RA>saw a problem in modern spirituality--that it was not RA>connected enough with our Mother Earth--and so created a RA>religion which took many elements of ancient paganism." I must agree. IMHO, there is no point in announcing whether your religion is new, old, or whatever. The only thing that people should be discussing is why the people believing in that religion/philosophy think that it is a good one. Actually, I think that if a religion were *truly* older than another, it would be *less* valid to the people of today. Legion the Many ___ X SLMR 2.1 X hAS ANYONE SEEN MY cAPSLOCK KEY? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: rakshasa Area: MagickNet To: Stephen Hovey 29 Sep 92 14:25:00 Subject: Re: cards UpdReq SH) They (cards) are a focus...a psychic kick in the pants...and to me have no power other than that... I agree completely. To me the cards (I use Crowley's Thoth deck) help shake me out of mundane/linear thinking and allow me to see sides of the question I had not considered before. They allow me to focus my intuition and use it as well as my logical mind....but they aren't possessed, in and of themselves, of any "power." I think of the common definitions of the cards as guidelines--they're there to help you learn what each card means. Crowley gave the analogy of 78 people you meet at a party. You may be able, through a description, to guess things about them--only by making their acquaintance (i.e. by dealing with the cards personally) will you be able to guess how they will react in certain situations. Xeper and Remanifest Rakshasa aka Setian Kevin T. Filan I* 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Nightshade Area: MagickNet To: Rebecca Davis 21 Sep 92 16:07:00 Subject: Introduction UpdReq RD>I am from Nebraska now for many years. I like to know everything. I am new RD>to all religions except not Chjristianty. I like to BBS now I have modem. RD>read also and other activties. Many golf is fun. Wanting to know everything is an admirable pursuit. It is also one of my desires, hence my interest in physical immortality. The problem becomes one of direction and order. I learned some time ago that I can't learn it all, now and so began to focus my attention into the areas previously mentioned. To restate and maybe add a couple, they include shamanic wicca, physical immortality, hiking and camping, reading, and gardening. You can pick any of the above to start or give me a list of topics that intrigue you and I can choose from them or we can do both. Depending on the topic we choose to start on, we might move our conversation to another echo, I've never been to Nebraska, so geographically I have no idea what it's like. What BBS's do you visit and what kind of books have you read. These might also provide some interesting starting points. I am just finishing "The Little Country"(?) by Charles deLint. I've also started a book on square-foot gardening. I'm also re-reading Mircea Eliade's book, "Shamanism" because of some interesting assertions made about whether Wicca has any right to claim shamanic roots. We could even talk about your problems with your boyfriend, if that's what you'd like to do. You mentioned that you talked differently, why is that? You said he was 28, how old are you? It sounds like his parents are more worried about their money and your speaking pattern was an excuse. Just my opinion and if any of this last part is out of line, feel free to tell me to keep my nose out of your business. I'm used to it. I'm not much into mini-golf, so I guess that's one topic we can cross off right away. Tell me what caught your eye and got you interested in magickal, mystical things, be they paganism, wicca, alchemy or whetever. Look forward to hearing from you. Nightshade 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Nightshade Area: MagickNet To: Cabal Macloughlin 27 Sep 92 13:51:00 Subject: Dragon Trads UpdReq CM> I would very much like to continue this discussion but there is one CM>slight problem. I am currently only on TIDMAT and PC is not carried here. I CM>would sugjest moving things to either Mun or some other echo. Well, we seem to be attracting some interest so let's see if we can get somewhere to have the conversation. The board I'm using doesn't have mundane, do you get magicknet (I think that's a separate one)? They have it here and will send this message on both of these echoes so we can see if you get it. If you do, respond to it on the base, otherwise respond here we'll try again. I think there are about three others who appear to have an interest in this and when we finally find a home, we can invite them also. Until later... Nightshade 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Nightshade Area: MagickNet To: Knife 27 Sep 92 15:36:00 Subject: Re: New Student UpdReq KN> Focusing attention and concentrating emotion. However I now find I am KN>getting more control over my concentration and my body so perhaps that is no KN>longer the problem but any advice you can give would be greatly appreciated. I tend to group concentration and visualization together as far as exercises go. My favorite is a candle concentration/visualization. For this exercise, you need to go out and buy a box of birthday candles. For the first part you are to focus your attention on the candle for the duration of the time it is lit. When you find your attention wandering, simply acknowledge the interruption and go back to focusing on the candle. You can keep a piece of paper by your side and a pen/cil in your hand and make a hash mark every time your attention wanders. This gives you a record-keeping method so you know how many times your attention wanders. Try it at different times during the day and night to find out if there are any times you seem to be naturally better at doing this, though you want to get to the point that you can focus your attention at will. When you have gotten to the point of being able to do this with no hash marks, let me know and we'll start part two. If you have any questions, please let me know. As to the second part of your endeavours, what do you mean by concentrating emotion? Are you referring to inducing ecstatic states? Do you consider yourself more of an intellectual type than a feeling type? This is what popped into my head based on what I read. Please clarify. Thanks. Until later... Nightshade 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718