From: The Grey man Area: MagickNet To: All 31 Aug 92 23:10:32 Subject: PAGAN SEMINARY UpdReq The following is a message posted on America Online. I have some serious problems with this (which I have communicated to Alan), but I think that his ideas deserve wider dissemination. If you wish to comment to Alan and do not have access to Internet and don't want to call or write him directly, I will be happy to forward your comments to him. ********************************** Subj: Pagan Seminary Date: 92-08-29 17:44:22 EDT From: AlanSalmi Recently, when thinking of what I could do when I finish the degree program that I hope to start next year (Ph.D. in History of Religion, Northwestern University), I was wondering what a Pagan could do for a job. I hit upon an idea that I wanted to start to share with everyone in the community, this folder being one of the best places with good minds that can critique well. Here it is: What this country and community needs is a Seminary devoted to the professional training of Wiccan/Pagan clergy. The is need there because: 1. Pagans are already going to seminaries that are primarily Christian (or close to it, such as Unitarian Seminaries) for their training, thus showing an interest in that type of training. 2. A non-Pagan seminary is inadequate for this training because of the special needs of our religion (more on that later) 3. The legitimacy that it would add to our position in the community of religions and in the eyes of the law (how many times have you heard of custody battles over children because a parent was a Witch?) would be very useful in the long run. 4. Helping to establish a professional clergy would help Pagans to organize in a more effective way for community worship and the needs that can only be met by an organized community effort (insurance, Pagan Nursing Homes, childcare centers, private schools, graveyards (full of trees planted on the graves?), study groups, self help groups, etc.). 5. The growing number of Pagans (estimates range around 250,000 now, with a doubling time of five years) means that there will be a need to minister to and help with the spiritual education of, a larger number of people than existing systems can now handle. Indeed, much is done by individuals themselves and, while self study is useful and should always be admired, a helping hand can cut through much of the occult B.S. that's out there in published form. 6. In the time that I've been involved I have seen: -One Salvation Army Officer (Captain) who was secretly Pagan, but could jump ship because of a lack of professional clergy or organization that could use his talents -A friend recently told me of a Presbyterian Minister who was secretly Gay, Pagan and holding a doctorate in Religious studies with nowhere to go, as well as: -A Church of Christ Minister who was, along with his wife, secretly Pagan, with no other career possibilities and no other way to feed his family but to stay in a church he hated. Such organizational talent is surely out there and being wasted when it could be used in the Pagan Community, starting with a seminary. Now, what could such a Seminary do that would be different? 1. Have representatives from each of the major groups (Gardnerian, ADF, Church of All Worlds, etc.) to develop a curriculum that would meet their ordination requirements (or third degree requirements for some). 2. Teach subjects that would be unique to our religion: -Mythology of the world -Ritual construction -Spellcraft -History of Paganism, ancient and modern -Dealing with other religions (especially Christianity) -New forms of organization and consensus building -New forms of weekly worship, as well as seasonal worship -Psychic skills, energy work -Divination -specific courses such as Goddesses, Gods, sacred sexuality, tantra, hermeticism, etc. 3. Serve as a study center with certification in a variety of things for those groups not wanting a professional clergy but needing advanced training. 4. Serve as an organizational point for referral to different groups and study of current Neo-Paganism in a scholarly way. 5. Serve as a study center for advanced work in ancient religion and its application to modern day Neo-Paganism. 6. Provide a haven for scholars and ministers of other religions to "jump ship" and teach us what they know. Now, the problems to be solved would be: 1. Where does the money come from? 2. Where would the students find jobs? 3. What specific curriculum/degrees would be offered? 4. Where would it be located? 5. Would it be affiliated with any particular denomination (ADF, CAW, etc.) or would it be free standing? 6. Would the community as a whole support it (with at least the same amount of funding/effort that Circle Sanctuary was funded and supported in their land buying efforts)? 7. Should we attempt to establish the old temples again as places of public worship (which is what this would do) and try to set the old mystery schools operating again (which is what this could be, at least in part?) What would it do to Paganism? Post me e-mail on this, distribute it through various other networks (such as internet) to solicite comments and post things in this folder to let me know what you think. -AlanSalmi @aol.Com., mabell @ 312-989-8911 (after Sept. 1st, new phone), u.s. snail @ 2100 W. Montrose #3N, Chicago, IL 60618 (after 9-1-92). 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Barbara Kennedy Area: MagickNet To: All 31 Aug 92 13:22:22 Subject: discussion UpdReq Amathaon of circle cithaeron suggested that I might find someone willing to discuss paganism at a very basic level here, yes? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Miaren Avianna Area: MagickNet To: Barbara Kennedy 1 Sep 92 00:13:28 Subject: discussion UpdReq As long as your questions aren't overly general, I think people will respond. Ask away! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Alia Area: MagickNet To: Shaman 30 Aug 92 01:22:00 Subject: Ho Chi Zen UpdReq Very Nice... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Alia Area: MagickNet To: Shaman 30 Aug 92 01:23:00 Subject: Fishy? UpdReq That Jesus stuff did always seem kinda "Fishy" to me... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Alia Area: MagickNet To: Rapier 30 Aug 92 01:35:00 Subject: Introduction UpdReq Hi, your message found it's way to Napa, California, but I am connected to a board in Seattle. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Alia Area: MagickNet To: All 30 Aug 92 01:51:00 Subject: Info and Questions UpdReq Hi, I am a midwife and I live in Napa, California. I am connected to a board in Washington. I strongly suspect that there is a board closer with the same echos? Can any one suggest a board? I also am not sure about this net stuff, the vocabulary and how it works and all that. Can anyone suggest where I can learn this stuff? Blessed be... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Airmid Area: MagickNet To: Erin 29 Aug 92 11:03:00 Subject: Re: Sun And Moon Feminine UpdReq ER> Interesting! You've just provided me with some info I've been ER>looking for. I understand from my study of myth that a lot of ancient ER>peoples--the Japanese among them--started out with deities of both gender fo ER>something. That is, the moon originally had (and still has) both a god and ER>goddess. So did the sun, for that matter, but the sun *god* in Japanese has ER>long been eclipsed (pardon pun) by Amaterasu. I had wondered if the Celts ER>were the same. What you say seems to indicate that at least in some times ER>and areas, they were. I suspect that it's possible but as you note with the Japanese, I think any information on a possible Sun God is so buried in other information (or long extinct) that it would be difficult to say who was what. The other problem is the long scholarly tendancy to label =everything= a "sun God" from about 1820 on to 1960 or so. Over a century of deliberate stretching of interpretations would certainly put most folks off following that path. Sorta like UFO research, which is so filled with fruitloops and looney toonz that nobody with half a grain of sense will touch the field even if they =do= think that UFO's are a possibility. Now, in the Carmina Gadelica, the both Moon and Sun are referred to as feminine. OLX 2.1 TD Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (P)anic 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Airmid Area: MagickNet To: Erin 29 Aug 92 11:05:00 Subject: Re: Sun? Female? UpdReq ER>were brought to Ireland from there. Using them as directional "tools" ER>is a vast misinterpretation of their use and function. ER> NO! You mean, someone took the original material and perverted ER>it and what we have in wicca today came from somewhere else!? I mean, ER>we don't have the WORD from Gardner and Saunders?? Say it isn't so!! ER>Oh, be still my heart! Ok. "it isn't so" -- how's that? ;) ER> OK, sarcasm tucked safely back in place--though I did enjoy that. ER>I have heard of groups that called in earth, sea and sky instead of ER>atdt 451-6778 though I know of none personally. Are you one? Well, the ADF does Land, Sea & Sky, and so does Keltria to a certain extent. I do in my personal work although I have to say that it's more of an acknowledgement of what's already there than a "calling" or "invocation" of any sort. ER> Hope you get this. Mechanical thangs are acting up today. Sounds like mercury retrograde?? OLX 2.1 TD Press "+" to see another tagline. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Philip Cavanagh Area: MagickNet To: Grendel 30 Aug 92 19:39:32 Subject: What's up UpdReq Greetings Grendel... > I have heard much about the Farrars, mostly the fact that there not > worth reading, so I have steared clear from any of there literature. G> That's funny. Their books are probably the best G> books on Tradition Wicca out there. They are less G> flaky than most of the authors I have read. Well I must of heard differently, I guess I'm not practicing what I preach, which is: "Don't make up an opinion on a subject until you've heard the stories from both sides", meaning (in this case), I should read the literature first, then weigh both types of information I have digested. It works well, since I have many friends and the odd time 2 good friends argue between one another, and I hate to lose a friendship, usually I am a neutral party in that case. 93!phil!93 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Philip Cavanagh Area: MagickNet To: Ellen Reed 30 Aug 92 19:42:08 Subject: What's up UpdReq Greetings Ellen..... PC> I have heard much about the Farrars, mostly PC> the fact that there not PC> worth reading, so I have steared clear from any of PC> there literature. I have been tempted as of late ER> ER> I for one would disagree. While I certainly don't ER> agree with everything they say, I do think reading ER> their work will help you to gain a more thorough ER> understanding of the Craft and its traditions. Usually I have read Cunningham and Weinstein when I want to learn of Witchcraft, however since I'm moving to Vancouver, I'm sure I'll learn more in that environment. Did you know... A Coven does in fact exist in Sooke, but I can't seem to get any information about joining. This Coven could be used as an example for other Coven's, since there pretty secrative about what they do. 93!phil!93 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Ellen Reed Area: MagickNet To: Philip Cavanagh 31 Aug 92 10:34:54 Subject: What's up UpdReq PC> Did you know... A Coven does in fact exist in PC> Sooke, but I can't seem to get any information PC> about joining. This Coven could be used as an PC> example for other Coven's, since there pretty PC> secrative about what they do. Or maybe what they are is private. Some people don't understand the way that covens work...or some covens...in matters of people joining. I can only speak for my coven, but I know others like it. We are very careful about choosing new members for our coven. We are, in many ways, a family. Our tradition, while dear to us, is not the right tradition for everyone. It is hard to explain, but not only do new people have to be right for us, we have to be right for them. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Tony Iannotti Area: MagickNet To: Frogmaster 1 Sep 92 10:07:26 Subject: Re: Necronomicon UpdReq > You actually met the people??? Sure, New York crowd. (Post-Simon, but everybody else. He is in his other life right now, but I understand he comes back every 10 or 15 years. Kind of like Cthulhu on a shorter wavelength....) > I also take it seriously. Is it possible for me to write to them?? Some of them are here. Tau Ursa is carrying on a local conversation with some people, and there is a Necronomicon-specific echo that you can pick up in a number of places, here included. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718