From: Christeos Pir Area: ENOCHIAN To: Shadow Walker 18 Aug 94 20:11:28 Subject: Re: enochian 101 UpdReq -=> Shadow Walker sent a message to Christeos Pir on 14 Aug 94 01:43:00 <=- -=> Re: Re: enochian 101 <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. CP> I disagree that they are the same forces. _Strongly_. Sorry, but CP> there are BIG differences for most people between Angels and elemental CP> forces of divine origin, and demonic, chthonic, forces that either CP> represent "Evil" or those parts of our subconscious that we have CP> packed away as too hard to deal with (depending on one's p.o.v.). CP> It makes no difference if different people define those terms (angel, CP> divine, evil, demon, etc.) in different ways: the results are the same CP> for almost all of us, _expecially_ for those new to this kind of work. CP> (We were talking about the possible dangers for beginners, remember.) CP> That is, we generally have some notion of the difference between that CP> which we see as benign, and that which we see as either malign or CP> repressed. SW> I agree that on the surface of things there appears to be a great SW> difference between "angelic" and "demonic" forces. And if you SW> subscribe to the more judeo-christian p.o.v. of "good" and "evil" SW> then for you this must be so. I hope you meant "one" by the use of "you" in this last sentence. SW> But as a magician I ask that you open SW> your mind to the possibility that all is one and that the "demonic" SW> is another angle of the angelic. The judeo-christian holy books in SW> fact identifies the "demons" as "fallen angels". They maintain their SW> angelic qualities or their angelness but are now of a different order. I don't give a tinker's dam what the Bible says. And I find it amusing that you feel the need to speak condescendingly. However, you know nothing about me, so perhaps it's understandable. Let me clarify the situation here. If you go back and re-read my post (quoted above), you should see that I was very careful not to buy into the "this is good, that is evil" p.o.v. -- in fact, I made it clear that one can better put it into terms of benign vs malign ("this helps me, this does the opposite"), or even into terms of emotional comfort ("I feel OK dealing with this, I repress that"). [By these terms, it should be clear that I feel that the so-called "evil" forces MUST be dealt with, though not until the person is ready to do so.] BTW, if you refer waaay back to one of my original statements to Ar about Enochian, you may recall me saying there ARE no malign, or -note the quotation marks- "evil", forces in my experience in the Enochian system; the closest one is liable to run across are the cacodemons, apparently more akin to elementals than anything resembling the kind of are-you-sure-you're-ready-to-deal-with-this entities encountered in, for instance, Grant's stuff. Which leads us back full circle! SW> In my experience whenever invoking any force it's opposite rises to SW> meet it. (see book of thoth ATU X ) As far as beginners (we are all SW> beginners) They should be aware of the possibilities at the outset. It's dangerous to generalize solely from one's own experiences to a blanket-view of things. From what I've seen, people's experiences vary much too much to generalize like that, particularly among those starting a new magickal discipline. (Hmm... the A.'.A.'. admonition about no contact between students makes a lot a sense, neh?) Now, let's apply what you said to the specific topic under discussion: What, in your view, are some of the forces, and their opposites, that a newcomer to Enochian is liable to encounter? SW> At least as much as possible a beginner should know that his/her SW> limits will be tested and their views on a very basic level will be SW> challenged and very likely change (often). Now, this is something that my experience and discussion with others certainly corroborates! I fail to see, however, how this makes Enochian particularly dangerous for someone who is generally mentally and emotionally prepared (and stable), as I said from the very outset. Not to keep going around in circles here, but I STILL stand by my original statements to Ar: that the Enochian system seems to be no more dangerous than magick in general for the mentally and emotionally prepared (and stable), and in fact seems to be rather LESS dangerous than some other systems, eg Goetic magick or some of the more "out there" stuff from Grant and Bertiaux. [And, for the record, I _do_ think it can be extremely helpful (ie, furthering) for people to work with dangers, when they're ready.] Clear as mud, right? Sorry, I'm having a "bad-Mercury" day. Love is the law, love under will. - Christeos Pir Fr. Vitriol Io, O.T.O. ... O Self-Luminous Image of the Unimaginable Naught, 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718