From: Mark O. Garrison Area: ENOCHIAN To: Christeos Pir 14 Aug 93 04:15:36 Subject: RE: MISC ENOCHIANA UpdReq DO WHAT THOU WILT SHALL BE THE WHOLE OF THE LAW In a message dated 11 Aug 93 12:32:01, Christeos Pir wrote: MOG> Exactly! Isn't that the idea in Gematria...to convey the MOG> correspondance of ideas through a form of cosmological symbolism (the MOG> AlephBeth and it's numerations...)? If the words "horse" and "candle" MOG> in regular gematria (by the letter method) add up to the same number, MOG> then they correspond in a significant way, one way or another, with MOG> eachother...they are "synonyms" of a sort! CP> Well, as I said, it's not Gematria as I'm used to thinking of it, CP> and something (either my logical side -in which case to Hell with him-, CP> or else my Angel, not sure which yet) tells me we're barking up the CP> wrong Tree, here. CP> BUT, "One never knows, do one?" As the sage French say, "On ne sait jamais! N'est-ce pas?" Out of curiousity though, from whence did you learn Gematria? And secondly what do you consider Gematria?...I cannot think, at the moment, of any other conceptualization of what you could have possibly learned as Gematria other than what was listed above... MOG> But since we are left without a MOG> reasonable method by which to obtain numeration for Enochian, as I MOG> believe that there was one intended but simply not revealed to Dee and CP> Any particular reason for this belief, or just a sense of its CP> Rightness? There were a couple of passages from Dee's workings that insinuated or mentioned there being a numeration...I will see if I can dig out some of my notes for you, for supporting defense... MOG> Kelly, we are left to explore and experiment every method that we can MOG> possibly imagine, in order to attempt to discover such said MOG> numeration. Indeed, sometimes this does lead us down the path of MOG> folly. However, remember, the Fool is always the start and ending to MOG> every journey... CP> Before enlightenment, gathering wood and hauling water. CP> After enlightment, gathering wood and hauling water. But after enlightenment, do we regard this act as simply gathering wood and hauling water, or something much more profound? :) :) CP> (But "what wood, what water!") The wood and water that "IS" and "IS NOT" ;) ;) MOG> Yeah, I would be fascinated to hear the results, too. You are MOG> absolutely right though...this is something that will most likely take MOG> YEARS of dedicated study to achieve! Oh well, I am just like MOG> that...and what makes it worse is that I have several (perhaps a MOG> couple dozen projects) that I am devotedly working on that all will MOG> take years to accomplish. Oftentimes, I find myself working on many MOG> projects that will never come to fruition in my lifetime...but I work MOG> earnestly after them, nonetheless! It is simply my hope that oneday my MOG> works might be carried on by others yet to come... CP> And, QVIF!!! ?????QVIF?????? I'm sorry that I am so blind to the obvious sometimes, but what exactly is QVIF? :) MOG> [Hebrew...] was originally designed for the purpose of MOG> conveying the cosmological relationship between concepts of the divine MOG> and nature through matematical representation, whereas most AlephBeths MOG> were for the purpose of representing thoughts/sounds of a previously MOG> spoken language through the medium of written symbols. CP> As learned in the Bermuda Triangle from Atlantean Masters? No CP> offense intended in the world, but I think you're reaching a bit here, CP> bro. While anything's possible, I find it more likely that Hebrew, like CP> any other language, evolved and/or was borrowed from sources current at CP> the time, in order to write down what was being spoken by a particular CP> group of tribes in the Middle East. Just because some of the people CP> in that area used letters to convey numeric concepts (like counting), I CP> don't think it's logical to jump to the idea of the Hebrews as the CP> receivers of guidance from the Divine Mathematician. (For that CP> matter, math, and particularly Algebra, didn't really take off until the CP> Arabs separated numbers from letters, and began doing what we might call CP> "Pure Research" into the whole field.) No! No Atlantean or Lemurian conspiracy theories! It's not reaching at all, it is actually quite accepted in the field of Paleography that the Ashuri AlephBeth was indeed designed for Esoteric-Spritual Purposes. They had two other written AlephBeths for other purposes; one for general writings, the other for legalistic matters. The three shared a fairly similar spoken language, but the manner in which they were written varied due to the purpose they were used. In addition, you must keep in mind that that Arabic and Hebrew both originate from the same source--a cross between an early Semitic Hieroglyphic/Pictorial Symbolic Script and Early Phoenician. Regardless, a primary Hebrew language and alternate forms of the Hebrew written language were in existence for many years before the Ashuri script and variant language had been designed...Besides, even with this in mind, there is still a good amount of evidence to suggest that the primary spoken language itself might very well have been designed purposely, as well--as a specific variant of Phoenician for a specific purpose, this being a universal Spiritual Language (to be the representation of the supposed language of the gods/angels! But I thought that the angels were supposed to speak Chaldean, or was it "Celestial" or what about Enochian? ). Regardless, the point being that most likely, the language was "designed" for the purpose of being the language which these people thought could be "universal" and used to speak with what they percieved to be divine entities.... Some good books to read on this subject are: Fabre d'Olivet's THE HEBRAIC TONGUE RESTORED, Nigel Pennick's MAGICKAL ALPHABETS, a historical study into the development of written languages titled THE BOOK, and numerous others...I even have several articles on the subject of the origins and purpose of the Hebraic language from BIBLICAL ARCHAEOLOGICAL REVIEW, if you are interested. CP> I dunno... seems like the early Qabalists did do a lot of thinking CP> ("Pure Research" again) into that "cosmological relationship," as CP> you put it, in looking for a hidden Torah behind the exoteric Torah. But CP> to go from there to say that that's what their alephbet was originally CP> devised for...? (Does the name Occam ring a bell? ) No, the name Occam does not ring familiar. Who was s/he? As for the Torah, you are overlooking the possibility that it too is written with a pre-existing Gematria and thusly with this "cosmological/mathematical symbolism." Surely, you know that the Torah was compiled long after the Ashuri alephbeth had been designed. In addition, have you heard of Equal Spatial Intervals...the Torah is full of them...not to mention Aik B'Kar, Temurah and more...The Torah (with the exception of Deuteronomy...but we are pretty sure we don't have the original form of Deuteronomy anyways!) is highly mathematical...it is filled with hundreds and thousands of mathematical patterns and occurences in the text and alephbeth, all are beyond coincidence because of the meaningful reoccurences of various mathematical patterns. This certainly makes one begin to think... MOG> Egyptian Hieroglyphic are all examples of alpha/numeric languages MOG> (though I beg to differ on this later example!). CP> Yeah, I think so. (Differing, I mean) As I understand it, CP> Hieroglyphs are definately phonetic. I don't even know what their CP> numbering system looked like?! Well, there was a time, not too long ago (pre-Budge's era and even a little during) when we didn't even think that Egyptian Hieroglyphic was phonetic. We, at that time, subscribed to the belief that it was solely Pictoral-Symbolic...which it is primarily...But, as we now know, it is indeed phonetic in addition (wow, dual symbolism...that's pretty complex for 7500 B.C.E.! Why then is it so difficult to imagine Hebrew being Numerical-Symbolic at 2500 B.C.E.?). In later dated (@ 3500 B.C.E.) hieroglyphic inscriptions, they have been discovering numeric representations using the same hieroglyphs as used for the phoenetic sounds...this was used primarily for dates (in concerns with priestly writings, anyways) but it is a possibility (though I personally think far-fetched, even more far-fetched than Diasporic Jews settling Tennessee after the Second Revolt in 133 C.E.!) that they were used for other purposes as well...Who knows! We are still in the infancy of such sciences as Archaeology and Paleography to know for sure...these fields have only been truly "scientific" since the late fifties...We still have a lot of knowledge and understanding to make up for after the past two thousand years of the obscuring, obfuscation and blatant destruction of the knowledge of history and more...Gee, the Alexandrian Library itself was only burnt down five times! (Once by Barbarians, once by the Babylonians--or was it the Arabs--I don't remember, once on accident by the Romans, and twice by the Xtians--Though, it is amusing. The first time the Xtians burnt down the library, the library was under remodeling and the majority of their books were kept safely elsewhere in the city during that time, but the Xtians didn't realize this and thought they were succeeding in purging the world of this great "evil" called books! So, they had to do it a second time!). Anyways.... MOG> Therefore, in these cases, the only time when Gematria symbolism is MOG> truly valid is when it was intentionally (or subconsciously, I MOG> suppose) intended. With Hebrew and like languages, on the other hand, MOG> Gematria is a universal concept tied in with the language itself. CP> re: 777 MOG> the alphabet and a little vocabulary, but not enough to understand MOG> Arabic gematria or the accuracy of Crowley's Arabic notations and MOG> correspondences in 777. However, I would, by nature (or Crowley's MOG> Nature), tend to question his scholastic accuracy in any language but MOG> his native tongue. CP> Yeah, he took a lot of Poetic License with things. Fools rush in... Ain't that the truth! "The laddie fancies himself a poet, does he!" MOG> Where on earth (or astral) do you come up with these MOG> "universal conspiracy theories"? You must be a member of the Bavarian MOG> Illuminati! CP> Sorry, I can't [FNORD] tell you. AH-HA! I knew it! ;) ;) Your silence speaks louder than words! ;) ;) Your refusal to confess to membership only goes to prove your involvement! ;) ;) I knew it! You have been sent to spy on me, haven't you! You don't need to answer, I know you are...but I alone have control over the Orbital Mind Lasers, you will never take me alive! :) :) Just joking...:) :) Love is the law, love under will, Mark O. Garrison 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Mark O. Garrison Area: ENOCHIAN To: Azoth 14 Aug 93 05:24:36 Subject: Re: Trithemius and more Rec'd UpdReq DO WHAT THOU WILT SHALL BE THE WHOLE OF THE LAW In a message dated 12 Aug 93 22:42:04, Azoth wrote: A> Talked to JD Holmes the other day, and they were sold out of it, but A> were going to check into getting more. They do have the Smith bio of A> Dee, translated by W.A. Ayton, that alchemist of the G.D.. That's too bad. Hopefully they will have it in stock again fairly soon. As for Smith's bio of Dee, I haven't even had the chance to read that one. I suppose I should look into getting that one as well... A> Wasn't Leo Vinci one of Crowley's aliases (after, I A> believe, a character in H. R. Haggard's _She_?) MOG> although I once remember seeing a complete listing of MOG> Crowley pseudonyms and aliases in some book, alas I MOG> could not locate it (of course as now I could use it! MOG> )... A> Yeah, I think I've got the same one around here somewhere.... If you could remember what it was in, I would be grateful. It would allow me to fill in a useful lacunae in my memory... A> The Laycock dictionary has been the most useful to me, and I MOG> I have never read Laycock's book. I have a general tendency to MOG> keep well away from any Llewellyn book! I A> Ah. The original was done by Askin, in England, about 15 years ago. A> Well done, too. Worth looking into, now that it's back in print; at A> least I've heard that it's back in print, but haven't seen the new A> one. I paid a ridiculous sum for mine, a year or so back. I sent A> Grendel an Xrox of the intro, if you see him around. I'll have to look into the Askin version then...that way it won't involve a slight moral quandry (The thing about Llewellyn was a joke anyways...after-all, the very first occult book I bought was Michael Donald Kraig's MODERN MAGICK, so I do, on occassion, purchase their books. I'll probably even buy Gerald Del Campo's book, once it comes out, as well...). A> That there were indeed numeric equivalents A> assumes an Enochian gematria. MOG> Very much so! But several centuries later it MOG> is just as much a mystery to us as it was to Dee and MOG> Kelly! A> Curiouser, too. There's a notation beside one of those mysterious A> numbers, by Dee, talking about 'middle C'. Was the gematria in terms A> of musical scales, do you think? I wonder if Joclyn Godwin has ever A> looked at his stuff.... Really. Where was this notation located, exactly? As for Joclyn Godwin seeing his stuff, I'm sure she undoubtedly has...But, whether see had noticed this notation is questionable. However, I do think that the possibility of the Enochian Alphabet being a musical scale is a good a very likely possibility indeed! Somewhere, I have the Hebrew AlephBeth converted to musical scale...HHMMM, this is starting me to think...Unfortunately I know as much about music as I know about cars! :) :) A> Nope. I'm interminably stuck here on the East coast, but the LOC has MOG> Yes, indeed. You are lucky enough to have access to the Mc Manus MOG> and De Young collections (and many other occult MOG> manuscript collections in the Library of Congress). MOG> So tell me if you ever unearth anything really MOG> monumental! ;) ;) A> Hehe. I think most such work will have to wait until I've settled a A> few workaday dilemmas. But my freelance software is doing well,and I A> can at least hope to be in a position to play properly in a couple of A> years, insh'Allah. I hope you can work out those dilemas, as well. I do know what you mean though. Luckily, I have been fortunate enough to minimize my expenses to where I have not had to work at a "wage slave" job for the past year and a half, so I have had as much "play" time as I have wanted. So what exactly do you program? In what language do you write in? I have just recently begun to learn C and C++ myself... A> How would you feel about getting prints made of something A> like that, and me scanning them into, say, .tif form for A> distribution? Has no one perhaps already done this? MOG> Prints of microfiche or mimeograph/photocopy? Either way, I MOG> would not have any qualms with this (though, it would MOG> take about two weeks for me to get microfiche MOG> duplicates made after I receive the MOG> film...photocopies I could do same day!)...I'm not A> Sounds like the beginning of a plan. };-] Now all I have to do is get A> the film of Logaeth...... Oh, that reminds me! Was I going to give you the address to the British Library (or was it the British Museum? I forget! Same block anyways! )? Well, since the Sloane Collection is kept primarily at the British Museum, I will refer you to that address, but I shall post both, just in case! Sloane Collection c/o British Museum Great Russell St. London WC1 United Kingdom tel: (01) 636.1555 Note: the British Museum has the Sloane, Harley, and Cottonian collections... British Library Reference Division Great Russell St. London WC1B 3DG United Kingdom Also, in addition, if you are interested in Judaical/Hebrew or Arabic works, you would be interested in writing this address: Dept of Oriental MSS and Printed Books c/o British Library 14 Stora St. London WC1E 7DG United Kingdom MOG> microfilm is copyrighted by the company that MOG> photographs the manuscript, other times, the original MOG> depository may hold exclusive copyrights on the A> Presumably such restrictions would be annotated in the conditions of A> sale? Usually not. If the microfilm itself is copyrighted, it will have a seperate page at the beginning of the film stating the copyright holder and date...The depository will generally not even mention that they have complete exclusive rights, if they do...What is usually best, is to state your intent to possibly pursue publication of this text when you order the microfilm, and ask if this is in opposition to any of their interests. They will most likely respond, especially if it is! :) :) MOG> text...However, if it was for public domain MOG> distribution where no profit was being made, I would MOG> have no moral quandry with it regardless of copyright MOG> or not! A> It's at least possible that an arrangement could be worked A> with the copyright holders. Of course, the major use of A> something like Logaeth would come _after_ it was entered A> into the computer, as text, rather than graphical data, A> and it's hard to see how this form could be restricted A> by copyright, other than by the individual doing the work. This is true. I would hope that an agreement could be made. However, even if the text had been entered into ASCII (or XYWRITE or whatever) I'm not so sure that it wouldn't be still under copyright infingement...after the outrageous decision on the suit against Eisenmann and Michael Wise for their translation of a 2,000 year old text (MMT) by the gentleman (who presumes to call himself a scholar! ACK!) who simply peiced together twelve fragments of scroll pieces who claimed (and is now supported by the Israel Supreme Court) to have sole copyright to this text and any and all translations...I'm not so sure anymore when it comes to copyright laws! A> By all means! They deserve all our support, at least those A> of us with a scholarly bent, and a taste for rare A> old books that would otherwise be nearly impossible to find. MOG> proposing to do...Phanes Press has stated plans to MOG> rebuild the Alexandrian Library online...They already ... MOG> Occult Library on-line within a few years...Imagine MOG> if every scholar, such as us, input/scanned/uploaded MOG> only 10 texts a year! The end result could be amazing! A> And much harder to burn than the original! };-] Hopefully! Though, I have heard rumours that there are a few rare occurences of Xtians who daring enough to attempt to learn computers (you know that computers are the tool of Satan! and heaven knows that you have to be intelligent to understand them...and you know that intelligence is of Satan! ), and if they are some how, against the odds, able to learn to program, it wouldn't be that difficult to upload a 'nasty' little virus...thusly burning the library in an altogether different (though just as effective) way... Talk to you later, Love is the law, love under will, Mark O. Garrison 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718