From: Azoth Area: ENOCHIAN To: Mark O. Garrison 7 Aug 93 20:41:48 Subject: RE: MISC ENOCHIANA UpdReq Hi, Mark - Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. A> I did something like that around July of last year, to be found in a A> file called entool10.zip. It's got some Enochian gematria and name- MOG> I will look into getting the complete file ... MOG> to be true...being always just a few steps ahead of me!!! :) :) Hehe, right. And the first to reach Enlightenment, Wins! };-] MOG> Thank you for going through the trouble of MOG> posting that for me. I'm not yet sure how useful it MOG> will be to me, however, I just might be able to find MOG> some use for it...I usually can! ;) I certainly wish you better luck than I've had so far. The calculation tool (in entool10.zip) ought to be fun. Even if you don't have a compiler and stuff to muck around with the source, the executable can load a gematria table in from disk, and then take in arbitrary characters/words/lines and do the computations. By feeding it a file containing a list of words, one per line, you can gematrize an entire lexicon in one swell foop. MOG> I thought that primarily only the order had been changed between MOG> the two sets!?!? I know a few--mind you, a few--of ... MOG> about it, I personally never really understood why MOG> Dee changed the order of the tablets in the Recensa, MOG> in the first place! :) :) From a reading of Casaubon, it appears that Dee didn't do the rearrangement: Kelly did! They were trying together to integrate a series of changes being dictated by Raphael, and having a hard go of it, so Kelly went off to another part of the house for an hour or so, and came back with the Tabula Recensa. I think the new orientation of the Tables is most likely a Kellian faux pas,or a willful attempt to mislead Dee, perhaps; I understand that they didn't stay together for that much longer, and the terms on which they parted are not clear to me. I'm basing my current work on the Recensa tablets, but in the original orientation. I've got them in the computer, as well,so I'll gen up a character frequency analysis when I get the chance, sometime in the next few days. Stay tuned! I'd love to do some work on _Logaeth_, but it's never been published in its entirety so far as I know, and I only have a couple of pages. Know where we might get a microfiche of it,and what it might cost? I can read the fiche locally, but not the microfilm (of course we'd want large working prints to really play....) Love is the law, love under will, Az0th 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Azoth Area: ENOCHIAN To: Mark O. Garrison 7 Aug 93 21:04:06 Subject: Re: Trithemius and more UpdReq Hi, Mark - Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. MOG> Ciphers). Apparantly this friend of a friend, in his MOG> spare time, has utilized all the cryptology methods MOG> available to him to break Trithemius' code! Still, to What some people won't to for amusement! };-] MOG> By the way, have you seen Leo Vinci's MOG> GMICALZOMA: An Enochian Dictionary? (It means what it I've had an eye out for the old edition, having seen it in a couple of bibliographies, but haven't seen it so far. Wasn't Leo Vinci one of Crowley's aliases (after, I believe, a character in H. R. Haggard's _She_?) The Laycock dictionary has been the most useful to me, and I thoroughly enjoyed his introduction, though I disagree with his analysis and conclusions regarding Enochian 'numbers'. I haven't had the opportunity of studying Dee's manuscript diaries, but in the relevant portions of Casaubon are brief angelic comments affixed to those Enochian pharases which are being glossed as numbers, which clearly imply that there are simply no English equivalents to be had: 'this you've not got' is typical, and the fact of the numbers being transmitted at all argues against Kelly being in some way incapable of 'getting' what was being given. That there were indeed numeric equivalents assumes an Enochian gematria. A> suggest polling W & V Daley Limited. They're at A> 8216 Melrose Avenue in A> LA,or PO Box 69160, LA, CA 90069, or (213) 658-8515. MOG> Oh wow! I will call them once it gets early MOG> afternoon. Thank you for posting me that address. I MOG> appreciate it. That price for the 17th century MOG> Agrippa was pretty steep, though! :) :) I suppose I Good luck! I really don't feel I have to own a piece to make use of it, but I wouldn't, in the right circumstances, think twice about paying what most would consider ridiculous sums for the privilege! MOG> Have you perused the early 17th century copy MOG> of STEGANOGRAPHIA in the Special Collections Dept of MOG> L.A. Public Library? I have been attempting to find Nope. I'm interminably stuck here on the East coast, but the LOC has some choice bits, as well. MOG> the Manuscript number they have for it, so that I MOG> might be able to order it on microfilm (if they even MOG> do have it on microfilm!). I sent them a request How would you feel about getting prints made of something like that, and me scanning them into, say, .tif form for distribution? Has no one perhaps already done this? A> Hehe. Well, having called their attention to the ... A> I as much as offered to help subsidise the re-spin A> of Trithemius (up to a point.....) if that would MOG> considering writing Phanes Press to volunteer my MOG> services to them, such as proof-reading, editing, ..... MOG> that they need done besides financial support. I MOG> suppose, after seeing your dedication to their MOG> causes, too, I will send off a letter to them this MOG> week-end. By all means! They deserve all our support, at least those of us with a scholarly bent, and a taste for rare old books that would otherwise be nearly impossible to find. Love is the law, love under will. Az0th 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: ENOCHIAN To: Fir 4 Aug 93 17:26:14 Subject: Seniors of earth UpdReq Thus said Fir to Josh Norton concerning Seniors of earth: Fi> I started reading the file of your experiences invoking the Fi> Planetary Seniors of the Earth Tablet in 1986. This morning I Fi> read the first 2 Seniors, Jove and Luna. Fi> Fi> Reading this brings up some questions I would like to ask you. Fi> Some of these questions I would not post on a public BBS as they Fi> are personal to me. I'm always glad to correspond, and I'm not overloaded with letter- writing at the moment. If you want to ask by snailmail, feel free. Don't expect all my answers to make sense, though -- my reservoir of deathless wisdom is about a quart low. Benjamin Rowe 146 Congress Run Road Cincinnati, OH 45215-5002 Fi> Fi> I would like to ask how you recorded this information. Did you Fi> use a tape recorder or did you write it down at the time, or rather Fi> did you record from memory after the rituals were complete? Fi> It's an odd sort of way to work. Basically I invoke the angels, get into the vision, and then write it down in sections as it happens. With a memory as poor as mine, there is no way I could write it down afterwards. I've never had any problem "freezing" the action on the astral plane while I turned my attention to my word-processor, and it just takes up where it left off when I turn my attention back again. On my better days, my awareness splits into several parts, so I'm participating in the vision and writing it down simultaneously. In the case of the Seniors working, I had been doing a vision a day with other parts of the Earth Tablet for about three months before that, so I was in a very charged-up state. I found that I could "split" my awareness so that part of it listened continuously to the Senior speaking, while another part continuously wrote it down, just like a good stenographer does. You note that much of those "visions" consist of speech rather than images, so there was little that required my visual attention; that part could be focused on the word-processor without interfering with my ability to listen. ... Now just wait and see what I do with this cheese slicer! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Fir Area: ENOCHIAN To: Mark O. Garrison 6 Aug 93 22:23:00 Subject: Happy B'day Dear Edward... UpdReq MO> JUST A JOKE GUYS!) :) :) If you have a computer program to MO> figure this stuff out, he was born in London on July 13th 1527 MO> at 4.2 p.m. Also, I do believe, that Turner's Elizabethean MO> Magic has the chart in one of the appendices. If you cannot Wish I did have such a computer program! Friends do though. I found the chart in Elizabethan Magic. Did you calculate the 3 outer planets Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto into the chart? MO> Oh, and if Paul doesn't know where you can find a chart MO> on Kelly, I will try to see if I can dig up the necessary MO> information (assuming of course that I am unable to find his MO> chart already done, also, in the first place!). That would be interesting. Let's see what Paul comes up with. Thanks. Blessings, Fir 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Fir Area: ENOCHIAN To: Josh Norton 6 Aug 93 23:20:00 Subject: Seniors of earth UpdReq JN> I'm always glad to correspond, and I'm not overloaded with JN> letter- JN> writing at the moment. If you want to ask by snailmail, feel JN> free. Don't JN> expect all my answers to make sense, though -- my reservoir of JN> deathless wisdom is about a quart low. I really appreciate your offer. JN> afterwards. I've never had any problem "freezing" the action on JN> the JN> astral plane while I turned my attention to my word-processor, JN> and it JN> just takes up where it left off when I turn my attention back JN> again. On Assuming you do your work within a circle, do you include your word processor in the circle? Blessings, Fir 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Grendel Grettisson Area: ENOCHIAN To: Azoth 7 Aug 93 00:26:00 Subject: MISC ENOCHIANA UpdReq > I did something like that around July of last year, to be found in a > file called entool10.zip. It's got some Enochian gematria and name- > extraction tools in C source, the executables, and a big text file with > tables of some of the results. If Grendel doesn't have it, it's > available on my BBS (see origin line) or I could blast it to slopoke. I don't have it. If you put it on Slopoke, I will pick it up. Wassail, Grendel Grettisson 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Christeos Pir Area: ENOCHIAN To: Commander Barbarella 7 Aug 93 06:52:48 Subject: Re: 'The Enochian Workbook' UpdReq -=> Commander Barbarella sent a message to Paul Hume on 02 Aug 93 09:27:57 <=- -=> Re: Re: 'The Enochian Workbook' <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. PH> that the language and the magick are inextricably bound together PH> in this system, and it is simplynot the same thing as saying "Ol PH> sonf vorsag goho IAD balt, etc.". CB> Is that not unlike the Catholics stating that the mass must be said in CB> Latin to be of use? Barb Only if experience were to show that something magickal occurred when the Mass was done in Latin, that didn't happen when done otherwise. Or, as I'm fond of saying, "I don't care if it's impossible, as long as it WORKS!" Love is the law, love under will. - Christeos Pir ... Thou art Sebek the crocodile against Asar; 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Christeos Pir Area: ENOCHIAN To: Josh Norton 7 Aug 93 06:55:32 Subject: Enochian and qbl UpdReq -=> Josh Norton sent a message to Christeos Pir on 04 Aug 93 13:13:08 <=- -=> Re: Enochian and qbl <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. CP> Makes sense, I spose. Why not ask if there _is_ an "official" CP> version? JN> I have, a couple of times. The response was that the question was JN> essentially meaningless in the context of my existence. Not very JN> helpful, eh? ROFL! The Left Hand of Darkness, eh? (What's the point of getting an accurate answer to an erroneous or meaningless question?) Love is the law, love under will. - Christeos Pir ... and thine eyes glare with thy quenchless lust unto the Infinite, 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Christeos Pir Area: ENOCHIAN To: Josh Norton 7 Aug 93 06:59:38 Subject: Enochian UpdReq -=> Josh Norton sent a message to Christeos Pir on 04 Aug 93 13:34:10 <=- -=> Re: Enochian <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. JN> I was thinking of the section "Concerning the Primeval Language" in JN> chapter five of James' selections. The language is somewhat ambiguous, JN> and admittedly open to multiple interpretations. Hmph. Yeah, it's another one of those "I know it means _something_, but WHAT?!" Love is the law, love under will. - Christeos Pir ... Be still, O my soul! that the spell may dissolve 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Christeos Pir Area: ENOCHIAN To: Josh Norton 8 Aug 93 00:18:16 Subject: Comselha UpdReq -=> Josh Norton sent a message to Christeos Pir on 04 Aug 93 17:17:12 <=- -=> Re: Comselha <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. 'Scuse the dumb questions, BTW: I wrote that message right before finding some of the answers looking back through some of your material, including the MS of "Son of..." which I'm reading presently. JN> But among the things I have noticed are that the work has started a JN> sort of "balancing" process on the astrologically-connected aspects of JN> my being. All sorts of little bits and pieces of garbage, left over JN> from my previous rounds of self-analysis, are coming to the surface, JN> releasing their energy, and falling into place in the pattern. (I feel JN> encouraged by the fact that the things coming up are nothing but bits JN> and pieces -- it means I did a fairly good job of the work before.) Hehe... yeah, it's all very well for some to say that it's necessary to open up those black boxes and deal with the various bogeys within, but there's a reason why we crammed 'em in there in the first place! Sounds like yours are pretty well subdued (but don't forget that one over in the corner, behind the stairwell... ). JN> Another thing is that I am finding it much easier to maintain what I JN> might call a dual consciousness. That is, one part of my awareness JN> continues to act as this fellow Ben, while another part acts as an JN> essentially self-less piece of divine awareness. This is not such much JN> something new, as it is a difference of degree. I seem to be able to JN> put much more awareness into the latter state without inhibiting the JN> ability of the former part to act within the world. Guess you didn't overstep by claiming MT, eh? JN> The "inner" round of attributes, with the signs associated with their Sorry, this was one of the dumb questions. CP> curious as to your reasons for the Cadent-Succedent-Angular order of This was another. JN> While I don't expect it to be convincing for anyone else, I find this JN> method consistent with the fact that not once in all the years I've JN> been working with the angels have they employed the zodiac in the JN> "standard" Solar sequence. Each and every time, without exception, JN> they have used the precessional sequence which goes clockwise or JN> "backwards" around the circle. They have never explained why they do JN> this, and seem to think that that answer is self-evident, but their JN> consistency is a strong argument, IMM, towards following the sequence JN> they gave. I don't have my astronomer's hat on this morning, but perhaps it's to do with looking at things from "outside" in, instead from Earth out? JN> Golden Talisman Great Circle Grimoire JN> JN> E Water Air Air JN> S Earth Earth Earth JN> W Fire Fire Water JN> N Air Water Fire This also made me think: perhaps we're asking the wrong question again... knowing that our world is not flat, and isn't held up by angels at each side, perhaps we should be thinking more in terms of the physics that we now understand, rather than those of the middle ages. This, obviously, brings us back to the astronomical/astrological/ galactic perspective. JN> No reason not to. I simply find a good right jab worked best JN> for me. JN> I agree it's a bundle to take all at once. The final version will JN> probably chop it up into pieces that can be done in about 15-20 JN> minutes each without difficulty. I've been doing it right before I go JN> to bed at night, and leaving other work for earlier in the day and JN> evening. And does it leave you relaxed and contemplative, energized, or ??? JN> ... ARF, ARF, ARF ARF ARF! Mu, again. Love is the law, love under will. - Christeos Pir ... Debate not of the image, saying Beyond! Beyond! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Christeos Pir Area: ENOCHIAN To: Mark O. Garrison 7 Aug 93 09:06:20 Subject: RE: MISC ENOCHIANA UpdReq -=> Mark O. Garrison sent a message to Christeos Pir on Thu 5 Aug 93 17:03 <=- -=> Re: RE: MISC ENOCHIANA <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. MOG> It could be a viable method (and probably the easiest) for MOG> determining the numerical value of a given word (going along with the MOG> aforementioned idea that the words, rather than the letters, may have MOG> numerical value) according to it's relative number of MOG> appearances/common usage in the Calls or Keys. I still don't follow the logic of that. If the word "horse" and the word "candle" (to pick to words at random) were to appear the same number of times, it would be as if they had the same enumeration? I suppose it could be construed as such in some manner (as a friend said, you can justify _any_ system if your screw around enough with it), but it's not what I'm used to thinking of as Gematria. MOG> I suppose you are right...I guess I have been looking at MOG> decoding the Enochian language like this: Dee studied various ciphers [...] MOG> begin to understand what went in his subconscious so that with a MOG> little bit of creative and innovative effort, might find the key in MOG> these particular ciphers to unlock the cipher that was altered and MOG> encoded by his subconscious mind (the end result being the Enochian MOG> language). Have I lost you yet! No, and that's actually an interesting idea, though certainly one that would take a _LOT_ of dedicated work to accomplish. Sounds like the work of years to me, and I can think of a number of possible major stumbling blocks (like the fact that he probably used several different encoding schemes). But I'm certainly not trying to discourage you -- if it be your Will, go for it! I'd be fascinated to hear the results, whatever they were. MOG> I have not looked at this past the point that the MOG> Enochian Angels are simply extensions of our psyches (or originally MOG> Dee's psyche, anyways). I just cannot swallow the belief that there is MOG> any god but man... Oh, you should try believing three impossible things before breakfast every day. But actually, I have left the question of their independant existence open, though I tend to lean towards seeing them as indeed being at least as real as the postman (and usually more reliable ). MOG> This is true. Most-times, what we find is what we seek... Heard that. Whitcomb calls this the Law of Attention. And Nasruddin said, "When a thief meets a saint, all he sees are his pockets." MOG> As for what makes Hebrew so special...NO-THING MOG> really. The only reason why I feel Hebrew is important to occultists You misunderstood my question. I didn't mean, "Why is Hebrew important to Qabalists," but "Why is Hebrew one of the few languages that has a viable Gematria?" MOG> Most other Semitic languages (including the MOG> Arabic, Chaldean, even possibly Egyptian hieroglyphic languages, too) MOG> were "designed" this same way. So are the Arabic parts of 777 accurate, do you know? MOG> As for Greek, it was solely a phoenetic MOG> language until the time that Orpheus returned from his travels in MOG> Egypt, or so the legend goes, anyways. Oh yeah, that's when he was writing the book that Abramelin later gave to Abraham, isn't it? ;-) MOG> Well, you can write to them at: MOG> Phanes Press MOG> P.O. Box 6114 MOG> Grand Rapids, Mich. 49516 MOG> Or call them at: (616) 456-5740 Thanks! Love is the law, love under will. - Christeos Pir ... (The Magister saw it and rejoiced in the beauty of it.) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Christeos Pir Area: ENOCHIAN To: Azoth 7 Aug 93 09:09:56 Subject: RE: MISC ENOCHIANA UpdReq -=> Mark O. Garrison sent a message to Azoth on Thu 5 Aug 93 17:50 <=- -=> Re: RE: MISC ENOCHIANA <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. A> The first, or the Recensa? MOG> I personally never really understood why Dee changed the order of the MOG> tablets in the Recensa, in the first place! :) :) While we're on the subject, and finding myself getting ready to start making my large paintings of the watchtowers, I'm T-totally confused as to which set of attibutions to use in my elements and their color schemes: the original, the Recensa, the GD, Ben's... ACK! Love is the law, love under will. Christeos Pir ... that none shall understand, --- save only the pure and voluptuous, 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718