From: Tim Maroney Area: Thelema To: Serpens 30 Mar 95 12:50:02 Subject: Re: JUGORUM UpdReq Negative reinforcement refers to the withholding of reward. The term you're looking for is punishment. Punishment has been demonstrated to be the least effective of the methods of behavior control. It relies on an aversive stimulus and the frequency of the operant only diminishes in the presence of the aversive stimulus (at least to any great extent). The behavior returns to its old frequency shortly after the permanent removal of the aversive stimulus. The reason Crowley wrote Jugorum the way he did was because of his oh-so-English assumption that learning and cruelty are inextricably bound together. There has been a tremendous amount of work done on self-control within a Skinnerian paradigm. The upshot is that you'll do yourself more good by simply counting breaks than by punishing them, and you'll wind up a lot less physically damaged in the bargain. Tim 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Tim Maroney Area: Thelema To: Rose Dawn 30 Mar 95 12:54:52 Subject: Re: JUGORUM UpdReq Just FYI -- pain is not a reflex. In fact, a reflex can not rely on pain, since pain travels all the way to the brain while reflexes are handled in the spinal column. You're not really hanging out with Andrew Vachss, are you? This whole "let's shoot all the child molesters" craze is the most serious danger facing the occult and pagan communities today, and Vachss is one of its most rabid advocates. Tim 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: Thelema To: Serpens 31 Mar 95 07:16:06 Subject: Re: LESSER HEX RITUAL UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Howdy again Serp, > I'm answering this first because magical foodlefump is much easier > for me to bullshit over than the much harder questions of discipline > and training in the Jugorum thread (g). LOL...Ok. ;> > Re: ABRAHADABRA vs. IAO. Well, I might preserve parity by going to > VIAOV, whether pronounced vee-ah-ohv or >oooo< (where >oo< > is the digamma, halfway between oo like look and oo like shoot). But > - again, aesthetics - IAO or VIAOV is preferable for me at the top of that > point in the ritual because of its tonal qualities. As I do it, I am oo-Eee-Ahh-Ohh-oo is the way I've pronounced it; seemed to be the indicated thang. I have to confess, I prefer personally plain ol' IAO'ing--aesthetics, as you mentioned. It seems more pleasing with long, drawn out, Eeeeee-Ahhhhh-Ohhhh's minus the little oo's. Gee, didn't *that* sound intelligent--Ha! Sheesh. A brother at Baphomet Lodge summed up much of my own feelings when making the comment that IAO just seems to 'vibrate better' than so many other Words and Names. Local brethren have discussed how difficult it is not to vibrate right along with the individual leading the ritual, with IAO and AUM both. I've read and re-read the sections pertaining to VIAOV in _MT&P_, in the _Book 4_, and anywhere else I've stumbled across em, and it's, for me, one of those matters where I see the formula, but don't really *feel* the formula, is the only way I can think of to put it at this time. I get it; I just don't like using the digamma in my IAO'ing. Besides all that, I relate so strongly on a personal level with the 'Old Aeon' Isis-Apophis-Osiris formula, it just really adds a lot of 'zing' for me. Spoze it's a matter of 'trivializing' formulae by insisting on their having strong individual resonance, as well as universal application...OTOH, maybe not! At this point, it's what I do...a lot. There's another sense that I'm sure I'd mangle completely if I tried to explain, that ABRAHADABRA is most def' the Word of the Aeon, but its place may not be in the Hex ritual. Again, I'm personalizing, going by the completely different *feel* I get when using ABRAHADABRA as compared to IAO or ARARITA. A rush of YOWZA kind of energy, compared to a sort of vibrant inner Silence. Ack! See what I mean? Maybe someday I'll be able to analyze all this disjointed shit when reading old journals and go AHA! ;> For now, I try to give different things an honest go, and then stick with what 'feels' appropriate for me at the time and place, without always knowing why they 'feel' that way. Dunno if that's a fault or a reaction proper to my initiatory status yet. Guess I'll find out! ;> > All those open vowels enhance the sense of being a conduit from the > "higher" to the "lower," whereas the stacatto syllables of > ab-ra-had-ab-ra > are more of a grounding effect - like the knocks. (Side note - one > can make a nice mantram of abrahadabra in the same rhythm as the > typical, brisk 3-5-3 knock you are familiar with. 1-2-3: A-ba-ra > 12345:HAAAD (ie. extending the HAD tone for 5 counts) 1-2-3: > A-ba-ra. yah-da-da daaah ya-da-da, as it were (this isn't easy to > get across in typescript, is it (g)). Oh, I got it, typescript comes across just fine! Maybe what you've said has something to do with the nebulous 'feelings' I was blathering on about above. > of the Abyss, doan' you cry. We aren't banishing other stuff - but > the perception of other - the duality. We "banish" by joining with > everything. Again, a reason ARARITA seems to me to be so crucial a > formula of the hexagram. Makes perfect sense to me. I've never really felt that *any* Hex rit was 'a banishing' in the way that the LBRP and SR are banishings. Agreed again on ARARITA. Hmmm...I get what you're saying...maybe you should be worried? };> > Stage Fright and Group Work: Other pitfall, on the other end, if you > are not prone to stage fright, you perform well in front of groups, > and people are kind enough to say you are good at it, you can end uphogging > the work, and it gets really hairy beary keeping your ego offstage. > Sp theatre tricks and background can prime other problems. Local tradition seems to be that everybody gets to do everything at least a couple times, so those of us who are a bit more insecure about doing something in front of a group aren't able to duck out that easy! I suspect that's the key, right there, to 'banishing' stage fright...having to do it anyway, and more than once, and thereby getting used to it. Sigh...I was hoping there'd be an easy actors' trick I could practice...owell! ;> > So use it. If you are terrified, or jittery, or nervous, let that > impel you to work harder. Be prepared for the inevitable > slips as you overcontrol. Yeah...using nervous energy seems to work *ace* in Geburah-focused rituals, fer-instance...but with subtler stuff, self-centered worry about one's body shaking or one's voice wavering is still a *big* impediment. To me, at least. To me! To me! LOL...hasta, V.H. Dewd, I'll yakk at ya later, I'm sure. ;> Love is the law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: Thelema To: Skeeve 31 Mar 95 08:30:42 Subject: Re: JUGORUM UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Howdy Bro! > I like what you are saying. It would appear to me to bring a more > positive result than the razor blade. I am wondering though, if > the razor/rubber band is not just a more emphatic way of bringin > that lapse to your consciousness? The training by sheer force of > will is great, but I wonder how much a person who had that force of > will would get from Jugorum in the first place? I think you're right about the role of the razor/rubber band, which would make sense in light of Serp's remarks about Jugorum's efficacy involving unconscious habits, but lack of efficiency with *conscious* 'habits.' If someone was able to use their Will to immediate huge success in the mental training area, I doubt they'd need Jugorum, true...but it seems to me that starting out lousy and getting better until one achieved a fair measure of success with the practices is possible...I'm thinking about giving it a go the next time I go out interviewing people for my weekly column , and picking a word like 'the' to avoid. It should be a total hoot! Especially since it's contained in the title of the column itself... . Anyway, I don't think a great amount of success at first is likely, but with continued practice, it seems that even a modest success could well be of a more emphatic nature, than a higher success rate when you have bleeding gashes all over your arms to remind you constantly not to do the undesired thing. Seems almost like the diff between my nagging Tami "Stop biting your nails!" and her reminding herself not to do it, if you see where I'm coming from. In the first instance, she'd be 'training' herself not to bite them when Mom is around; in the second, she'd have to remind herself, and reinforce the self-reminders, and end up with long nails. If someone or some thing is training you, when that person or thing is removed, *would* you have the same kind of attention to the act built up? I, personally, doubt it, or at least doubt that the attention would be as strong and constant. > This too sounds wonderful. But, the one benefit of the razor slice > is that 'Thine arm then serveth thee both for a warning and for a > record'. My day is so busy that although I can not slice my arm > with a razor, I would also be hard pressed (if not unable) to stop > each time and record the break. And without doing that, I am much > more likely to forget all the circumstances around it. That's true, and the 'record' part would be lost if the rubber band was used, unless you found one strong enough to leave welts that would last till you had time to record the breaks. Possibly just jotting a mark down on a sheet of paper every time you note the break would work...but of course, you still wouldn't remember the circumstances surrounding all those little marks on the sheet of paper! Possibly starting the practice for very brief lengths of time, when you're at home, would work with the no-outside-stimuli-at-all method. Although with kids the ages yours are, LOL, I know even that would be way difficult! ;> > C'est la vie, Progress not perfection, right? You got that right, Brother! ;> > Much as I would like to say that I have practiced Jugorum, I must > honestly say that I have not practiced Jugorum, with any method. > Unfortunately, I am much more theoretical than practical when it > comes to most things. Something I am working on :( I haven't either...ROFT! We're just a couplea 'Armchair Jugorumites' figuring it all out, eh? ;> Actually, part of the reason I haven't given it a go is because of the concerns I mentioned in the first posts, and I think by posting about it, I'm trying to figure out if those concerns are valid. For me, the razor is *out* at this point, not only because I'm out interviewing people all the time for a living and stuff, but because I don't want to freak my daughter out by slashing my arm with a razor. To me, she takes precedence, and if my magical evolution is hampered till after she grows up, so be it. I'll let you know how the 'will alone' thang goes after my next set of interviews, and if it seems too ineffective, I'll probably try the rubber band after a while. Let's keep each other posted! ;> Love is the law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718