From:    The Cegorach                           Area: Thelema
To:      Rose Dawn                              28 Mar 95 04:21:04
Subject: replies...                             UpdReq 

may have to wait a bit.  I just busted my relief (at work) for sexual
harassment, so I'm now back on 7 days (daze?) a week.
Joy.
... All things considered, I'd prefer to play God.


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From:    Christeos Pir                          Area: Thelema
To:      Nilen                                  28 Mar 95 22:17:56
Subject: Speaking of books...                   UpdReq 

 -=> Nilen sent a message to Christeos Pir on 24 Mar 95  00:00:00 <=-
 -=> Re: Speaking of books... <=- 
 Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
 CP> Fi> Yep.  Turns out a local store has it in stock as well.
 Ni> What Bookstore might that be ? I can't find a decent store except for 
 Ni> Borders in Rockville. ???
 Keep your eye on the ball, bro... If you notice, that was Fir that said
 that, not me. I just quoted her. <G>
 But as far as local stores (I presume you're looking specifically for
 magick/occult stuff?), I'd try Borders, The Shaken Tree, The Turning
 Wheel, Cover to Cover Books, and Yesterday's Memories; not listed in
 any particular order.
  Love is the law, love under will.
      - V -
 ... As the bezoar-stone that is found in the belly of the cow,

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From:    Serpens                                Area: Thelema
To:      Rose Dawn                              29 Mar 95 08:09:18
Subject: Re: JUGORUM                            UpdReq 

Rose -
I will note, that while there are social and psychological prices paid when A 
uses negative reinforcement on B, there seems to be a discount when A uses it 
on him/herself. You zapping yourself does not carry the impact it would have 
on both of you if you hauled off and whacked Tam, f'rinstance.
 Negative reinforcement is subject to a lot of attack these days, but some of 
the research, frankly, seems to me to be based on political rather than 
scientific grounds. The pain reflex and its associated physical and psychic 
triggers is a survival mechanism - by using it judiciously, deep changes in 
behavior can be obtained - not because it "hurts" but because of what "hurt" 
means to the computing circuitry of the brain/nerve complex.
 It is also easy to abuse - like most other deep-programmed survival stuff 
(food/sex/pleasure/etc.) - Gods know.
 I will note that Wilson, in one of the Illuminati-related books, demonstrates 
a Jugorum-like program in which the subject, besides getting mild electric 
shocks for unwanted behavior, gets a chocolate for wanted behavior (later, 
when the stakes are higher, when she acts qin the desired manner, ie. 
manifesting Eris, her lover immediately comes in and balls her silly - 
presumably a reward (g).
 Leaving aside come things this suggests about Wilson and his view of what 
makes women happy, the principle is solid - find a positive reinforcer to 
balance the negative one. One writer (Don Kraig) carried a pocket full of 
quarters and two little boxes. If he did the unwanted thing he put a quarter 
in the box that went to a charity. If he did the wanted thing, or 
successfulyl avoided the unwanted thing, a quarter went in the box to be used 
for a nice dinner, or gum or whatever.
 A little soft-edged, but again, sound psychology.
 All that said, I used the razor a number of times for exercises, but I was
in college at the time, and while there was less do=it-yourself body sculpture 
going on in the 1960's, it still excited less comment than it would walking 
into the office at GE with bloody patches showing on my sleeves today.
 The rubber bands seems less potent to me - but that may be an impression
built from the very powerful image of its total failure in various works by 
your friend Mr. Vachss. Though in general, I have found Jugorum does NOT work 
worth a damn in extinguishing deep and ongoing appetites: I did two days 
trying to Jugorum the smoking habit many years ago - horrible mistake. You 
end up deciding to "pay" a cut for a smoke. For alerting yourself to 
unconscious mannerisms, fine. For inducing and reinforcing assumed mental 
roles, not bad. For preventing conscious decisions - lousy.
Same thing would apply to any fixed urge, including the pedophilia dealt with 
in Andrews' novels.
 Regardie once described an electric "joy-buzzer" that he used in place of the 
razor. You used to be able to get them in joke/magic trick shops.
 Paul

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From:    Serpens                                Area: Thelema
To:      Rose Dawn                              29 Mar 95 08:19:54
Subject: Re: LESSER HEX RITUAL                  UpdReq 

Rose luv -
93.
I don't know the Thel-Hex Ritual, but think it was designed by the Master up 
at 93 Lodge, so you've got an answer close at hand (if I am correct, that is).
 The Analysis of the Key Word can be replaced, it seems to me, with any
formula which encompasses the Drawing Down of the LVX, or if one was 
determined to make the point, the reciprocating nature of LVX and NOX.
 Following an acronym, a la INRI, isn't essential. I think Ben Rowe has done 
some stuff along this line (Josh - am I misremembering?).
 I still chug along with INRI myself.
 ABRAHADABRA as the "charge word" for the Stars makes sense, qabalistically 
and theurgically, but dammit, the unifying principle contained in ARARITA
is so apt, so much connected to the way I "banish" when I do Lesser Hex, I 
would be pretty loathe to change it.
 (Side Note: Pentagram Ritual draws sharp distinction between ME and IT - I am 
over HERE, the Universe is over THERE. Hexagram then restructures that
deliberate duality, and makes all, ONE. ME and IT becomes I and THOU, and
then, when it all comes together (ha ha) the Two become One, and then None.
 While ABRHADABRA signifies the completion of this process, ie. the Great Work 
accomplished, ARARITA seems to me to be the process itself, ongoing,
in which the magician is participating at that moment - I could, come to think 
of it, END the ritual with a declarative ABRAHADABRA, the process having 
(within that bit of space and time) achieved its end and made ALL, ONE.
 I don't do a hard Enterer with the Hexagrams. I don't move hard with the 
hexes at all, actually (I don't mean weak, I mean move with maximim ki and 
minimum mechanical force - easy to show, difficult to describe if you haven't 
done it or seen it, though you probably observe similar phenomena in yoga 
work - the physically soft touch which is irresistible, the apparently off 
balance stance which is immovable.
 Gotta run -
Paul

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From:    Helrunar                               Area: Thelema
To:      Rose Dawn                              29 Mar 95 09:14:42
Subject: Re: JUGORUM                            UpdReq 

               Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
 > Specifically, it seems that the basic stuff recommended therein is 
 > eminently sound--training oneself to avoid thinking of specific 
 > things, saying specific things, doing specific things--but maybe the 
 > method is a bit counter-productive. If you 'punish' yourself for 
 > breaks, whether the method is slashing the arm with a razor, 
 > snapping the wrist with a rubber band, or anything else that causes 
 > pain or discomfort, it seems as though what you're *really* training 
 > yourself to do is to avoid pain, and that's already a hard-wired 
 > trait in most human beings. It seems to me that training oneself 
 > through sheer force of Will, without any negative stimuli to be 
 > avoided, would bring much more powerful, and *lasting* results. It'd 
 > be harder, of course, but it ain't really spozed to be 'easy'!
 Very good point! snaping a ruber band on you wrist every time you think 
of..say chocolate.. Is simply conditioning. when you have conditioned 
yourself through this meothed everytime your subcontious begins to think of 
chocolate your brain remembers *pain* and the thoughts are subdued because 
you dont want to feel pain. evrytime though you remember the pain and thats a 
negitive feeling, who wants that? 
  A good example, I stoped biting my nails which I've been doing all my life. 
I didnt condition myself to stop I just simply *stoped* mainly because I 
wanted to grow them longer so I could practise clasical style guitar picking. 
and as you know Rose darling. ;) I'm damn proude of myself for being able to 
quit a life long habbit with shear will. hehehe I'm always telling freinds 
"look I have long nails now!". Dont you think thats better than negitive 
feelings for no aperent reason (because your mind wont let you think of 
chocolate cause it hurts?). hmmm this whole idea sounds like something we all 
have desided to work twords.....Magick. ;)
  If you...*belive*...then it will be so.
                     Love is the law, love under will.
                                                Frater Helrunar

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From:    Rose Dawn                              Area: Thelema
To:      Serpens                                29 Mar 95 10:50:08
Subject: Re: JUGORUM                            UpdReq 

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
  > I will note, that while there are social and psychological prices 
 > paid when A uses negative reinforcement on B, there seems to be a 
 > discount when A uses it on him/herself. You zapping yourself does 
 > not carry the impact it would have on both of you if you hauled off 
 > and whacked Tam, f'rinstance.
 Point taken. I do slap myself from time to time, with no notable catastrophic 
effects!  ;>
  > Negative reinforcement is subject to a lot of attack these days, but 
 > some of the research, frankly, seems to me to be based on political 
 > rather than scientific grounds. The pain reflex and its associated 
 > physical and psychic triggers is a survival mechanism - by using it 
 > judiciously, deep changes in behavior can be obtained - not because 
 > it "hurts" but because of what "hurt" means to the computing 
 > circuitry of the brain/nerve complex.
 Hmmm. This sounds like one of those things that's a lot more complicated than 
first glance would indicate. My problem with it isn't the use of the pain 
reflex _per se_, but in trying to understand the 'heart' of the matter. I 
*still* seems to me, and I recognize that I may be unusually dense, that the 
object of training one's mind *should* involve something deeper than training 
oneself to avoid doing something that causes physical pain. Also, the idea of 
the razor cut being a constant reminder of what one's doing/not doing seems 
almost like 'cheating' to me! It seems that, while it would undoubtedly be 
much more difficult to train oneself to think/not think on the given subject 
without using the pain stimulus, it *would* be possible, and the extra effort 
required might make the success deeper, more lasting, and more valuable. 
Couyld simply be that I'm personally more 'hard-wired' toward dharana-style 
mental training exercises, and in the quest for balance should purchase a 
straight razor and a slew of long-sleeved shirts.
  > Leaving aside come things this suggests about Wilson and his view of 
 > what makes women happy, the principle is solid - find a positive 
 > reinforcer to balance the negative one. One writer (Don Kraig) 
 > carried a pocket full of quarters and two little boxes. If he did 
 > the unwanted thing he put a quarter in the box that went to a 
 > charity. If he did the wanted thing, or successfulyl avoided the 
 > unwanted thing, a quarter went in the box to be used for a nice 
 > dinner, or gum or whatever.
 That brings up a whole nother set of difficulties, though...wouldn't the 
recognition that one is doing the wanted thing or not doing the unwanted 
thing, be a break in itself? For me, personally, that's a trap all too easy 
to fall into!
  > All that said, I used the razor a number of times for exercises, but I was
 > in college at the time, and while there was less do=it-yourself body 
 > sculpture going on in the 1960's, it still excited less comment than 
 > it would walking into the office at GE with bloody patches showing 
 > on my sleeves today.
 Do you feel that the work you did way back when dinosaurs ruled the earth 
<LOL--sorry, j/k!!!> has had the kind of deep-seated effects that presumably 
we're working for with Jugorum and similar practices? ie, rather than simply 
learning to avoid painful stimuli, you actually learned to control your 
thoughts to the extent that it carries you through in your work today?
  > The rubber bands seems less potent to me - but that may be an impression
 > built from the very powerful image of its total failure in various 
 > works by your friend Mr. Vachss. Though in general, I have found 
 > Jugorum does NOT work worth a damn in extinguishing deep and ongoing 
 > appetites: I did two days trying to Jugorum the smoking habit many 
 > years ago - horrible mistake. You end up deciding to "pay" a cut for 
 > a smoke. For alerting yourself to unconscious mannerisms, fine. For 
 > inducing and reinforcing assumed mental roles, not bad. For 
 > preventing conscious decisions - lousy.
 > Same thing would apply to any fixed urge, including the pedophilia 
 > dealt with in Andrews' novels.
 Hmmm. Important distinction, unconscious mannerisms vs. conscious decisions. 
I've found that simple attentiveness, which I'm sure you know is anything 
*but* simple is pretty effective with unconscious stuff for me. I tried 
something very similar to Jugorum at one point--before I had ever heard of 
it--and it didn't seem to be nearly as effective. Whether I just didn't keep 
it up long enough or whether it's a case of different-strokes-for-different- 
folks, I'm not sure.
 Unless I'm fooling myself, possible but in this case I really don't think so, 
it's not the idea of pain that gives me pause about Jugorum, but the 
inability to shake the idea that it just wouldn't be as effective *for me* as 
certain other practices which, while superficially tougher and more subject 
to failure, may ultimately be more beneficial. Course, I don't sit with a cup 
on my head while in asana either, so...who knows?  ;>
 In the interests of figuring out if my suspicions are correct or not, I spoze 
I really should give *some* variant of Jugorum an honest try for a 
long-enough period to judge. Thanks for the post, you have given me some 
definite schtuff to think on. Maybe I'll even start meditating with a cup of 
coffee balanced on my head in Padmasana! Though I doubt it.  ;>  A pleasure, 
as always.
  
Love is the law, love under will.

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From:    Rose Dawn                              Area: Thelema
To:      Serpens                                29 Mar 95 11:08:04
Subject: Re: LESSER HEX RITUAL                  UpdReq 

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
  > I don't know the Thel-Hex Ritual, but think it was designed by the 
 > Master up at 93 Lodge, so you've got an answer close at hand (if I 
 > am correct, that is).
 Ahh, so ka! I believe you are correct. Thanks for the heads-up! I hate having 
part of a ritual and being left hanging, dont'cha know. And something kind of 
'between' the traditional Lesser Hex and the Star Sapphire appeals to me. I 
really enjoy the 'GD version' though, Aeonically Qorrect or not, and that's 
the one I practice.
  > The Analysis of the Key Word can be replaced, it seems to me, with any
 > formula which encompasses the Drawing Down of the LVX, or if one was 
 > determined to make the point, the reciprocating nature of LVX and 
 > NOX.
 Sure, makes eminent sense to me.
  > Following an acronym, a la INRI, isn't essential. I think Ben Rowe 
 > has done some stuff along this line (Josh - am I misremembering?).
 Yo, Josh! You watching? Care to elaborate?  ;>
  > ABRAHADABRA as the "charge word" for the Stars makes sense, 
 > qabalistically and theurgically, but dammit, the unifying principle 
 > contained in ARARITA
 > is so apt, so much connected to the way I "banish" when I do Lesser 
 > Hex, I would be pretty loathe to change it.
 How bout ABRAHADABRA replacing IAO, with ARARITA remaining ARARITA? Hmm...if 
I start seriously practicing this version, that'd be the way I would go, I 
think. Sex in uno per nomen septum in uno most definitely 'does it' for me. I 
would put "banish" in quotes _vis_ the Lesser Hex--and any Hexagram 
ritual--also, by the way.
  > (Side Note: Pentagram Ritual draws sharp distinction between ME and 
 > IT - I am over HERE, the Universe is over THERE. Hexagram then 
 > restructures that
 > deliberate duality, and makes all, ONE. ME and IT becomes I and THOU, and
 > then, when it all comes together (ha ha) the Two become One, and 
 > then None.
 Exactly. The duality is what's banished...the invocation-within-the-banishing 
 is what trips my trigger. Everyone's trigger, I guess!
  > While ABRHADABRA signifies the completion of this process, ie. the 
 > Great Work accomplished, ARARITA seems to me to be the process 
 > itself, ongoing,
 > in which the magician is participating at that moment - I could, 
 > come to think of it, END the ritual with a declarative ABRAHADABRA, 
 > the process having (within that bit of space and time) achieved its 
 > end and made ALL, ONE.
 Is the theory that ABRAHADABRA, being the Word of the Aeon, replaces IAO, the 
Word of the Aeon of Osiris, or something along those lines? Ok, I like the 
idea of ending with ABRAHADABRA, and find the idea of ARARITA as the process 
itself intriguing...maybe enough so to make me want to avoid a final 
declarative ABRAHADABRA, though. Hmmm...I feel myself starting to wax 
philosophical, so I best shut up now!  ;>
  > I don't do a hard Enterer with the Hexagrams. I don't move hard with 
 > the hexes at all, actually (I don't mean weak, I mean move with 
 > maximim ki and minimum mechanical force - easy to show, difficult to 
 > describe if you haven't done it or seen it, though you probably 
 > observe similar phenomena in yoga work - the physically soft touch 
 > which is irresistible, the apparently off balance stance which is 
 > immovable.
 I've been told my Lesser Hex ritual is 'feminine'...no insult implied in the 
statement. At least I don't think so! I'm pretty sure I understand what 
you're saying, and think it jibes with my own private style; though when 
doing it in public, I'm still so friggin' nervous that I doubt it comes 
through yet. Any easy 'stage fright' tips you've picked up in your acting 
practice that you'd care to share? LOL. In group situations, there's rarely 
time for extended pranayama sessions...I spoze either don't do group work or 
get used to it through doing *lots* of it eh? Ack! Being self-conscious is a 
real impediment to manifesting the energy of the Universe, neh?  ;> ttyl!
 Love is the law, love under will.

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From:    Rose Dawn                              Area: Thelema
To:      Helrunar                               29 Mar 95 11:15:44
Subject: Re: JUGORUM                            UpdReq 

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
  >  Very good point! snaping a ruber band on you wrist every time you 
 > think of..say chocolate.. Is simply conditioning. when you have 
 > conditioned yourself through this meothed everytime your subcontious 
 > begins to think of chocolate your brain remembers *pain* and the 
 > thoughts are subdued because you dont want to feel pain. evrytime 
 > though you remember the pain and thats a negitive feeling, who wants 
 > that? 
 Maybe that's what I'm having a problem with...the idea of 'training the mind' 
seems that it *should* encompass so much *more* than conditioning! My 
objection isn't so much that a negative feeling is involved, because I know 
from personal experience, that negative feelings can be a *powerful* shove in 
the right direction, toward change. Anyone who's experienced initiation gets 
that lesson real quick, on a pretty profound level, I suspect!
 If we turned the tables and the individual rewarded him/herself for doing the 
desired thing, that would be positive conditioning, and my objection would 
still be as strong. The method in general seems a bit 'off' to me, in terms 
of lasting internal effects. It does seem to work for a lot of people though, 
and 'success is thy proof'...I'm probably being an 'armchair Jugorumist' or 
something!  ;>
  >   A good example, I stoped biting my nails which I've been doing all 
 > my life. I didnt condition myself to stop I just simply *stoped* 
 > mainly because I wanted to grow them longer so I could practise 
 > clasical style guitar picking. and as you know Rose darling. ;) I'm 
 > damn proude of myself for being able to quit a life long habbit with 
 > shear will. hehehe I'm always telling freinds "look I have long 
 Did you read Serp's post? This could be the distinction he was talking about; 
how Jugorum didn't work for his attempt to quit smoking, but worked very well 
for attentiveness to unconscious habits. Although nail biting *is* an 
unconscious habit! I did it the same way, although having long nails is a 
reward in itself, which *you* know Hel darling...hehehe. Ok, I'll stop before 
I get *too* disgusting...LOL.
 I can see value in the razor cuts/buzzer/rubber band as a sort of kick-start 
to a stubborn mind, and then follow-up with other practices for a more 
lasting effect. It's possible that my entire frame of objection is based on 
seeing Jugorum as the end, rather than the beginning, of mental training. 
There have been plenty of times when I was sure that something wouldn't 
'work' and found, in practice, that it does. This may, or may not, be one of 
those times. ttyl!  :>
 Love is the law, love under will.

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From:    Serpens                                Area: Thelema
To:      Rose Dawn                              29 Mar 95 13:55:34
Subject: Re: LESSER HEX RITUAL                  UpdReq 

Rose -
93.
I'm answering this first because magical foodlefump is much easier for me to 
bullshit over than the much harder questions of discipline and training in 
the Jugorum thread (g).
 Re: ABRAHADABRA vs. IAO. Well, I might preserve parity by going to VIAOV, 
whether pronounced vee-ah-ohv or >oo<ee-ah-oh>oo< (where >oo< is the digamma, 
halfway between oo like look and oo like shoot). But - again,
aesthetics - IAO or VIAOV is preferable for me at the top of that point
in the ritual because of its tonal qualities. As I do it, I am reaching 
upwards, starting in Osiris Slain, arms rising towards Kether, until I am
elongnated, in this column of light down the middle pillar, moving from the 
one position to the other as I intone Isis-Apophis-Osiris...then as the Light 
crashes down through me letting it spread out to the limits of the space 
(working or just the Universe) as the IAO tones zing through me.
All those open vowels enhance the sense of being a conduit from the "higher" 
to the "lower," whereas the stacatto syllables of ab-ra-had-ab-ra
are more of a grounding effect - like the knocks. (Side note - one can make a 
nice mantram of abrahadabra in the same rhythm as the typical, brisk 3-5-3 
knock you are familiar with. 1-2-3: A-ba-ra 12345:HAAAD (ie. extending the 
HAD tone for 5 counts) 1-2-3: A-ba-ra. yah-da-da daaah ya-da-da, as it were 
(this isn't easy to get across in typescript, is it (g)).
 Banish in quotes: For me, pentagrams banish by saying: you are over there, 
and STAY there! Hexagrams "banish" the way aikido "fights." WHen you unite
with the Universe, ain't nothing can harm you, so hush little Babe of the 
Abyss, doan' you cry. We aren't banishing other stuff - but the perception of 
other - the duality. We "banish" by joining with everything. Again, a reason 
ARARITA seems to me to be so crucial a formula of the hexagram.
 Stage Fright and Group Work: Other pitfall, on the other end, if you are not 
prone to stage fright, you perform well in front of groups, and people are 
kind enough to say you are good at it, you can end up hogging
the work, and it gets really hairy beary keeping your ego offstage.
Sp theatre tricks and background can prime other problems.
 That said: I've never known an easy solution to stage fright. Even
experienced actors can get paralyzing anxiety attacks out of "nowhere."
The trick is to realize that this is simply energy. Nervous energy, adrenalin 
energy.
 So use it. If you are terrified, or jittery, or nervous, let that impel you 
to work harder. Be prepared for the inevitable
slips as you overcontrol.
 Gotta run - mo' later.
 93.
Paul

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From:    Grey                                   Area: Thelema
To:      Fir                                    28 Mar 95 23:00:50
Subject: Re: SOLAR ENLIGHTENMENT                UpdReq 

Actually, from what I've been able to gather from various people who've had
The Experience, it's not the actual ritual that's important. The eighth Aethyr 
is so far the very best instruction I've seen for obtaining Knowledge and
Conversation. Keep your eye on the Big Picture...
Grey



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From:    Grey                                   Area: Thelema
To:      Christeos Pir                          28 Mar 95 23:05:42
Subject: Re: Unicursal Hexagram & The Abyss!    UpdReq 

As a matter of fact, I have not a word on Enochiana, except for some wild
theories which I'm dying to try out. My main field of study has been Goetica,
but I'm studying Enochian Magic now, and trying to discover correlations, no
doubt to the dismay of Enochianists everywhere. So far, I only know of one
person who has mixed Enochian with Goetic magic without going insane, and some 
will yet contend that that person surely was mad.
So if I vanish, look for my diary...
Grey



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