From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Fir 17 Dec 94 00:00:00 Subject: Jm & Jn UpdReq Thus said Fir to Josh Norton concerning JM & JN: Fi> Hi Josh, Hello there! (Leering) Wanna buy a nice walmetto? Got your package, BTW. Much thanks. I haven't had a chance to sit down and see it through yet -- I'll save any comments for another time. Fi> Hey, what do you make out of the statement in Liber Al: Fi> There is the dove, and there is the serpent. Choose ye well! Fi> Leo/Scorpio is a common theme of yours, isn't it? Horus/Set, etc.? Fi> Went to a talk by an Ojibe (sp.?) Indian about the Dream world. Fi> He voiced that in the waking world Will is what brings things to us Fi> and in the dream world Desire is what brings things to us. Fi> Course I made the correlation of will/desire as leo/scorpio. Hmmm....I don't think that particular line is a Leo-Scorpio thing. If the signs relate at all, it's along the Scorpio-Taurus axis. But there are many ways to interpret that verse, and most of them are true in some sense. I'll forgo delving into them for the present. I dunno if I agree with your indian acquaintance; sounds to me like he has it inverted. But it may be that we mean different things when we speak of "desire" and "will". And "dream-world" and "waking world". Seems to me that, for most people, desire is what brings things to them in the waking world as well. Netzach, the sephira of Venus, is the sphere of what the buddhists call the desire-body, that complex of feelings, thoughts, and tendencies by which the average person defines their relationship to the world, and by which they determine the "rightness" of events in their lives. It is the template and filter that determines what sorts of events they attract (and are attracted to) and which they shun or filter out of their perceptions. "Victory", the name of the sephira, is the consequence of successful coordination between template and outer events. But Netzach also provides the motivating factor, the "fire" that pushes the person to work towards achieving his desires, so I guess in that sense you could say that it is a form of will. In the astral world -- which I presume is what the indian means by the dream-world -- the same thing is true. Except things happen quicker due to the absence of inertia; you don't have to work for something to happen. Unless you are careful to maintain a state of neither-desiring- nor-not-desiring, what you see there tends to be pretty much a reflection of yourself. When the person achieves solar-level consciousness, Netzach's desire- body starts to lose its hold on individual actions and perceptions. Gradually it becomes aligned with (and eventually, absorbed into) the archetypal pattern of the person's individuality, which is a function of Chesed. The magickal nature of the being takes over from the mundane nature. The "serpent" or magickal nature takes over from the "dove" of mundane desire. ... I got food poisoning today. I don't know when I'll use it. ___ X Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 X 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kevin Bold Area: Thelema To: Tony Iannotti 17 Dec 94 04:30:28 Subject: Sarcasm/Bible Copyrights UpdReq 93! TI> Question: Why do you think the authors of bibles should be denied TI> copyright protection when and if they desire it? Well, could it be 'cuz they're all dead ? 93--93/93... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: Thelema To: Will Bridewell 17 Dec 94 08:40:30 Subject: Re: MEMBERSHIP IN OTO UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Howdy Will, > Just curious. How large is the OTO now as far as members and lodges > go? Has there been a significant increase over the past decade with > a large number of Crowley's works being reprinted by Weiser and New > Falcon? Hmmm...a while back there was an accurate breakdown posted on alt.magick listing the number of associate members, Minervals, Ists, etc. etc., but I can't recall that specifically...I know it is *around* 2,000 members. Equally unsure about the number of Lodges--did you mean Lodges, Oases & Camps, or Lodges only? Ponder ponder...they are listed in the _Magical Link_, but my copies are all packed away. You'd probably be able to get more specific figures from a body Master, such as Paul Hume, or from Tony Iannotti...truth to tell, I don't tend to 'retain' that type of information, cuz it's of less interest to me personally than other 'schtuff.' ;> I know there has *definitely* been an increase since the former Caliph, Hymenaeus Alpha, became OHO, due to his opening up the initiatory 'floodgates' after their having been shut down since after Crowley's death; and an even greater increase over the last decade or so, but how much of that is attributable to the increased availability of Crowley's works, how much to technology such as these echos affording a wider audience and increased visibility, and how much may be due to several other factors, I really couldn't speculate. Love is the law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Serpens Area: Thelema To: Rose Dawn 17 Dec 94 22:43:06 Subject: Re: MEMBERSHIP IN OTO UpdReq Rose and Will - 93. I cannot for the life of me find the last membership report from our GH Frater Bill Heidrick, but its just shy of the 2000 mark. Under Grady (Hymenaeus Alpha) and the present Caliph, Hymenaeus Beta, initiations seem to me to have grown steadily each year - though I only have figures going back a couple years. I think the combination of ... - increased Crowley accessibility since the early 70's, plus... - increased visibility of the Order, and more members, bodies, contact info, etc. etc. making it possible for people to find us, plus... - OTO reaching a plateau number where the number of trained initiators, active groups, and other resources, makes it possible for the OTO to bring more people "into the fold"... all add up to an accelerating growth curve. I'd have to count through the Link to get a number on actual bodies. Wait a sec...74 or so (quick count by eye) in US, 43 in Europe, 7 in Canada, 2 in Japan, 2 in New Zealand. 25 or so are Lodges (empowered to initiate thru the Man of Earth degrees, with facilities for the IV/PI initiation, plus all the other factors that go into being a Lodge). Many and many an Oasis, required to be capable of initiation through the IIIo - but as we know, more and more Camps have chartered initiators and the resources to mount initiations, if not clear up to IIIo (my own Camp, f'rinstance (g), and Scarlet Woman to my knowledge, and I am sure, others). My experience at Blake is that more and more of the folks who come in are strongly committed to the goals of the Order - of our increasing membership (and we are at about 20 initiates in just over three years since the original bunch of us petitioned for Camp status) many eagerly press on to the Io from Minerval. Being a friendly kind of place most of the folks to visit as friends choose to form the bonds of hospitality with the Order as Honored Guests in the Minerval degree, even if their Will does not lie in the direction of the stronger bond of the higher degrees. And if not - without those same friends we wouldn't be where or what we are, and outside the obligatins of initiatory secrecy, and the need for private time for study and discussion among the initiates, even our other "private" meetings remain open to our proven friends. And a public meeting every few months to keep good contact with the rest of the community. Seems to work good so far (g). Paul 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Fir Area: Thelema To: Brian Dare 17 Dec 94 16:11:50 Subject: Re: O.A.S.I.S. UpdReq 93, > Just curious if anyone knows what happened to the O.A.S.I.S BBS in > B.C.? Well I'd be curious if you solve the mystery. Navitae had expressed an interest on this echo in having a copy of an article in Eidolon so I sent him netmail asking for a mailing address and got no response. 93 93/93, Fir 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Fir Area: Thelema To: Christeos Pir 17 Dec 94 15:23:44 Subject: Re: RANDOLPH UpdReq 93, >TC> What has PB Randolph written? > > Not much, lately. You're back on a roll I see. Thanks for the info about your Camp's newsletter. 93 93/93, Fir 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Fir Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 17 Dec 94 16:30:08 Subject: Re: SOLAR ENLIGHTENMENT UpdReq Hi Josh! > Given this, it seems to me that every person > will have a "natural" grade, which is their point of greatest progress > over the course of previous lives. Once a person reaches this point, > their forward progress will probably slow appreciably -- even appear > to stop from an another's viewpoint. Instead they will spread > "outwards" > within that particular level, learning to use its facilities in > detail. Would it be fair to draw a correlation to someone who develops a magickal system, and then proceeds to spend the rest of their life refining it? How would you suggest a person seek self initiation? Regards, Fir 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Helrunar Area: Thelema To: Serpens 17 Dec 94 16:18:30 Subject: Re: THELEMIC HOLIDAYS UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law! Thanks for the input Serp! I'll check with sis about more dates and stuff next time I talk to her. OK so far I have... The equnox's and Solstice's AC's Lesser Feast, Oct 12 AC's Greater Feast, Dec 2-7?? Beast and Bride, Aug 12 William Blake, Nov 28 Are there any other Important people who have contributed to the 93 curent or Our Lives as Thelimites that any of you think I should add to this? How about Jhon Dee? How about Date's of some of the Temples (When they were dedicated and what not.) Local and Famous Temples...camps? anything you crazy Thelimits can think of I'll take! ;) Love is the law, love under will. Fr.Helrunar 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: Fir 17 Dec 94 13:18:08 Subject: Re: DIS & DAT UpdReq -=> Fir sent a message to Christeos Pir on 09 Dec 94 06:44:51 <=- -=> Re: Re: DIS & DAT <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Fi> The What: Liber Al with commentary. Fi> The Who: I don't know what his affiliation is. There's an [...] Oh, Ok. I thought the name looked vaguely familiar. I've never actually read any of his stuff. Fi> Or I could xerox you a copy. Much obliged, ma'am. Hey, are you gonna X-post Erm's video review, or should I? Love is the law, love under will. - CP ... Myself flung down the precipice of being 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: Rose Dawn 17 Dec 94 13:22:26 Subject: Re: GREAT GOD AC? UpdReq -=> Rose Dawn sent a message to Christeos Pir on 09 Dec 94 09:48:50 <=- -=> Re: Re: GREAT GOD AC? <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. RD> I sent you a post on the Oasis echo...have you received it? Just I think so... which one was it? BTW, did you get my e-mail from AOL? RD> C'mon CP, let's be fair...I've seen several people post about the RD> Crowleyites and AC-worshippers and nasty fundies setting up Thelema as RD> the New Dogmatic Religion, during the couple years I've been reading RD> the echos. I've seen a couple, usually teenaged nosepickers calling themselves King or Lord something, repeating some story they heard from a friend of a friend. If these situations were that common, I think we'd hear them from someone we've come to consider reliable. Tim, on the other hand, is obviously not a teenaged nosepicker; however, he does have a history of 1. deliberately trying to get people stirred up, and 2. ranting about the OTO and its hordes of brainless feudalistically-minded Crowleyites. Like TV-preachers or street-ranters, it's amusing for a while. Then, according to one's mood and temperament, it's either boring or irritating (or a mixture of both). When the ranter begins to rail at people for not arguing back, it's time to change the channel, for me. RD> It seems as though some of them have actually encountered such people; RD> we're probably lucky to have found the local groups that we're RD> affiliated with. Possibly. Odds are that they're out there. But when only people calling themselves Exidor can see the aliens or whatever, I wonder if they're as common as they seem to think. RD> Part of being a Thelemite, to me, means being able to say "I disagree" RD> no matter how loudly any one individual is yelling to the contrary. Or no matter HOW MANY others are yelling to contrary! Love is the law, love under will. - CP, who's been playing Wolfenstein, and is in a Martial mood... ... I have descended, O my darling, into the black shining waters, 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Paul Hume Area: Thelema To: Will Bridewell 18 Dec 94 11:41:24 Subject: Queries for OTO Members. UpdReq Will - 93. WB> have on a person. Is it an opening to new strains WB> of thought, is it an aid in increasing magickal WB> power? The former, it seems to me. It augments the second in a formal sense if magical power is the initiate's Will, or part of it. In the broader sense of magick ("Every willed act is a magical act," etc.) then yes, posolutely. A wise elder brother once remarked to me that the initiations in the Man Of Earth (Minerval - IVo) degrees, the initiations are about power - conferring it and learning to use and recognize it. Power over oneself, whereby power in the world comes into play naturally and without "forcing". Though there can be uncomfortable errors coming to terms with this empowerement and what it entails. It rang a cognate bell with an premise suggested by my aikido sensei one day: that in aikido we learn to control ourselves, so that, in a potential conflict, we can control the situation with minimum harm to ourselves or others. WB> I have always held in my mind that it was a way to open one to the WB> influences of Kundalini, but I am not the WB> experienced one in this. The initiations are certainly designed to activate the energy of different chakras - the "floor plan" of this work is published in Equinox III,10. WB> Who decides when you are to be initiated? Does it ever occur or is WB> it possible for someone to be initiated before the WB> "right" time? Are periods between initiations In the Man Of Earth degrees, the candidate makes the primary decision, subject to several considerations. When the candidate feels its time to go for it, she fills out the paperwork (hey, its an organization, so it has paperwork - like dandruff, it is something to fiddle with and keep to a minimum (g)) and sends it in to one of several entry points to the process (usually, to the body that will do the initiation). The first external feedback kicks in here, since the application of the Nth degree requires two sponsoring signatures from initiates of that degree. Minerval (the entry degree) is an exception, since the sponsors must be Io or higher. This fits the meaning of Minerval - honored guest, not family member. A guest cannot invite anoter guest to the party without (in courtesy) checking with the hosts first. If someone cannot find two sponsors, this suggests a reality check is needed. It may simply be that Frater X is unpopular with the bretheren who know him. The dynamics of group work, especially in a self-selecting community, would seem to trigger a warning alarm if two of your chosen colleagues cannot see their way to recommending you for advancement. The possible diversity of groups is a healthy outgrowth of this - Frter X may not get along with CamP Y - may even be on bad report for behavior that Camp Y finds disruptive (ie. he isn't welcome on their premises), but have no problem at Camp Z. ANYWAY, two sponsors sign off on the form, and it goes into the approval mill - Grand Lodge approval means verifying that the candidate is dues current, and hasn't been placed on suspension, or expelled, for shooting at the Caliph, or spray painting OTO slogans on the paintings at the National Gallery, etc. Seriously, the reasons for Order-wide bad report, suspension, and expulsion that I've seen (from a distance, thankfully) run to things like decking a fellow initiate in open lodge, inviting non-initiates to sit in on, and even participate in conferring, an initiation,actual crimes reflecting badly on the Order (extortion, sexual assault, embezzlement), writing to Order leaders saying things like "So I am rewriting all the initiations, publishing the ones I swore to keep secret, and what are YOU going to do about it?", flagrant violation of drug policy (would it have been so hard to do the deal after the meeting on neutral turf, instead of exposing the local body, the bretheren present, and the Order as a whole to the draconian penalties our presently paranoid culture imposes), etc. WB> Who decides when you are to be initiated? Does it ever occur or is WB> it possible for someone to be initiated before the WB> "right" time? Are periods between initiations Sure. It is an imperfect world and mistakes are part of the process. oops - something's come up - more opinionated stuff later. Paul 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Paul Hume Area: Thelema To: Will Bridewell 18 Dec 94 13:22:20 Subject: Queries for OTO Members. UpdReq Will - 93 - back with more opinions (g). OK, yes, it seems to me that it is possible to rush oneself - but my experience in doing so myself is that having declared to the universe that you will now do X, the universe takes note, and you gonna get all the X you can handle. If you keep adding Y before you have your shit straight on X, then life becomes exceedingly interesting until you bring the energies you have DEMANDED from life back into balance. Liber Librae, despite being almost completely copped from the Golden Dawn Zelator ritual, is a crucial text, for balance is in many ways the task of the initiate as he or she confronts the power which has been invoked by the initiations. WB> "right" time? Are periods between initiations WB> excessively long (in your experience), because I WB> hear from and meet quite a few people involved in WB> the first 4 degrees(including minerval), but have WB> not met anyone higher. What is your opinion for The statutory times between degrees aren't all that long. A Minerval is recommended to let 9 months go by before taking Io, but not only can the Minerval apply for Io at any time, the present rulings allow an individual to take Minerval and Io on the same occasion. Some initiators have had poor success rates with folks who take this option (I call it the "double jump"). IE. in their experience, more of the folks who do it end up leaving the Order, often with a good deal of acerbity. On the other hand, I initiated this way, and look at me. Hmmm - maybe they have a point (g). Seriously, I know lots of estimable kinfolk in the Order who did 0o and Io on the same day and are prospering. But it is not to be lightly undertaken, and I myself encourage candidates to take some time in Minerval before doing Io. (Not least by not scheduling sets of both initiations on the same date) Nine months is the statutory wait between Io and IIo. One year from IIo to IIIo. One year from IIIo to IVo (sudden look at calendar - yikes, I need to pay my dues, as my anniversary of taking the IVo just passed). After IVo, and this is the reason you've not met members of the Lovers Triad, I suspect, the initiations are by invitation. KEW, and then Vo and up, are at the invitation of initiates of those degrees. I believe Vo and up requires confirmation by the Senate. (That would be Vo to VIIo? VIIIo and up is Hermit Triad, and outside the scope of the Senate - but the VIo-VIIo may also lie in different jurisdictions - dunno, as it "pertaineth not to my grade.") Looking at the membership figures, you are getting into about 10-15% of the membership by the time you reach even IVo. The percentage shrinks even more at Vo and up. Why do you realize that barely one member in 2000 is a Xo (g). I don't know the criteria that are considered for invitation to KEW and the Vo. I have some clues (g). Dedication to the goals of OTO as a group, and doing something organizatinally to support those: working as an initiator, being a do-er in keeping local groups functioning, etc. Work in the EGC, working as a Mass officer, and ideally as a priest or priestess (in training under an ordained priest/ess, as ordination is connected to the KEW degree). Walking one's talk as a Thelemite - and demonstrating the virtues suitable to a "knight" of Thelema -the chivalric principles of honor and honesty, courage, etc. that OTO includes in its legend. I dunno that being a hot magician per se is part of the criteria. There, it seems to me, we are getting into the "OTO or AA" question, wherein many a mug of beer has been consumed to lubricate friendly debate. Well, I've ranted enough on the subject - it might help if I shut up and let someone (possibly even a member of one of th higher degrees (g)) get a word in. 93. Paul 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718