From: Phillip Barker Area: Thelema To: Tim Maroney 12 Dec 94 20:23:00 Subject: Re: 111 New Suck -- er, M UpdReq Hullo, Tim TM> > You can have a camp with only one initiated member. TM>My understanding is that three initiate signatures are required on a camp TM>application. I haven't seen the form, though. Where would you get the form to fill out? Phil SLMR 2.1 Blessed are the jackhammers. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Walter Five Area: Thelema To: All 10 Dec 94 19:56:26 Subject: C.F. Russell and Michael Bertiaux UpdReq From: walter5@brewich.com (Walter Five) Newsgroups: pod.thelema Subject: C.F. Russell and Michael Bertiaux Martin.Krogh-Poulsen@f0.n9260.z93.fidonet.org (Martin Krogh-Poulsen) writes: > > How can one get ahold of this "Logos, Mantram, and Magic" text? > > I am VERY interested :) > Make that Order a Double! What's the chance of getting an ASCII of this? Blessed Beast! Walter Five ------------------ walter5@brewich.com (Walter Five) Origin: The Brewers' Witch BBS -- Houston, TX -- +1 713 272 7350 3 lines 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Farrell McGovern Area: Thelema To: Loki 11 Dec 94 00:42:20 Subject: RE: Crowley on CDROM? UpdReq FM> I would propose that it be done in HTML, or FM> the Hyper Text Markup L> That's a very good idea. It's not hard to do and one can use Mosaic L> (public domain, I think, but you'd have to get permission (at least) to L> include it in a package), or one of the variants thereof. It is also a public domain standard in-of itself...so you never have to worry about it once it has been put in that form. And virtually all the viewers are public domain or freely copyable. L> It would work so well because, as you said, it would L> support hyper-linked L> text, sound, and graphics (including 'movies'). You could view someone L> performing signs, working with sigils & Enochian tablets, etc., or working L> with Geomancy, which is something I've never been able to grasp just from L> books and charts. You could look at Frater Achad's "3D L> Tree" by rotating it L> around. You could view someone performing various yoga L> postures. You could L> hear the pronounciation of the Greek or Enochian (or whatever) bits of some L> rituals. Well, by May I should be a HTML guru, and all I will basically need is raw text, and some indications of what should be linked where. When I have my own system on net (within a month or so) I will be able to use it as a test bed. Once I have that, I might be interested in taking something not too big, and "annotating" it with text/graphics/sound links. L> Let me know if anyone comes up with some plans. Will do! ttyl Farrell Internet: ai474@freenet.carleton.ca --- "The Information Cowpath is strewn with Meadow Muffins...even the best of us get the Meadow Muffin Blues every now and then..." -F. McGovern 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Farrell McGovern Area: Thelema To: Tim Maroney 12 Dec 94 21:33:54 Subject: RE: Crowley on CDROM? UpdReq TM> I've been looking at HTML authoring tools over the last few days. I'm not TM> impressed. It appears that if there are Greek, Hebrew, Arabic, and Coptic TM> extensions, they're not implemented by any of the readily available TM> viewers and editors, which is a rather serious deficit for Crowley TM> texts. The problem is that most of the HTML stuff is written by Americans...and thus don't write it on the idea that there will be other languages that need to be supported! TM> reference to the Tree of Life printed in blue bold underline, for TM> instance. TM> Text authored specifically for hypertext might be able to get away TM> with these constant disfigurements of the prose, but existing texts TM> would have their flow entirely disrupted. A traditional index is TM> better. Not really. If you only hyperlink the first instance of each unique word, that works much better. The other thing is...are you reading the text for information content, or prose enjoyment? TM> index entries. Ted Nelson (the inventor of hypertext) TM> is a great hand-waver, but his stuff has never panned out in the TM> real world. Then why are most help systems today hypertext? Why are most of the product support databases hypertext? There is a place for hypertext, but it won't replace every from of the printed word. TM> That said, the multimedia content you are discussing does sound like an TM> excellent idea. Certainly rituals are better presented TM> as rituals rather than as scripts. How many more people would be TM> able to do a ritual after seeing someone do it in a QuickTime movie TM> rather than reading a sparse description of the text and gestures? I don't think that complete rituals should be presented...only specifics that are of import. There is a lot of extrainiuos stuff that can be omitted. TM> Unfortunately, such content is expensive to produce, TM> and requires a good deal of talent and training to do right. Occultism in TM> generally is letting itself be watered down to fanzine TM> quality levels, and I'd hate to see amateurish home videos TM> accelerate that trend. It really doesn't take a lot to produce pro-looking video. It, like desktop publishing, has a few ground rules, and there are books on it. The most expensive part is the equipment. A high-8 camcorder, time-base corrector, and non-linear editing system can be had for about $5,000 US, if you have to buy the stuff...but a lot of times you can get access to university or collage film departments...and get students in to help with it. Another avenue is community TV stations. They usually have lots of equipement, and a mandate to use it. Add to that there are lots of people around who have experience in TV & Film. I am sure that enough talent can be put together if people get serious about this. ttyl Farrell 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Farrell McGovern Area: Thelema To: Christeos Pir 11 Dec 94 00:52:00 Subject: More Ac Bull. UpdReq AB> The only difference being that the Chick tracts purport to hand out AB> information directly, and are quite humorous. :-) I still say the best way to deal with these things is to collect a bunch, noting where they were collected from...buy a case of white-out & pens, and have a "Write your own" party where everyone whites out the existing text in the text bubles, and writes in their own...then collect them and put them back where they were originally found. Not only can this be a lot of fun...but it will discourage them from from distributing those little seeds of hate. ttyl Farrell 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Phillip Barker Area: Thelema To: Tony Iannotti 12 Dec 94 20:27:00 Subject: Stargate (2 of 4) UpdReq TI> We definitely had a mailflow problem end of Nov/first few days of Dec, but TI>think it's fixed now. Please let me know TI> of any other missing messages since last weekend. Got out the data-plunger, eh? SLMR 2.1 Blessed are the jackhammers. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Loki Area: Thelema To: Tim Maroney 10 Dec 94 19:45:24 Subject: RE: Crowley on CDROM? UpdReq TM> That said, the multimedia content you are discussing does sound like an TM> excellent idea. Certainly rituals are better presented as rituals TM> rather than TM> as scripts. How many more people would be able to do a ritual after TM> seeing someone do it in a QuickTime movie rather than reading a sparse TM> description of the text and gestures? Unfortunately, such content is TM> expensive to produce, and requires a good deal of talent and training to TM> do right. Occultism in generally is letting itself be watered down to TM> fanzine quality levels, and I'd TM> hate to see amateurish home videos accelerate that trend. One of the main TM> things that has attracted me to the tradition is the style and grace TM> evident in traditions like the Golden Dawn and Thelema, and one of the TM> things that disturbs me most is the clunky ugliness of books from TM> publishers like New Yeah, you have a good point here. I guess I was assuming that OTO or something would oversee the CD before its release. If it's gonna be done, it should be done accurately and tastefully. I must admit I didn't consider all the different character sets that would be necessary in such a venture; your comments about the shortcomings of .html are noted. Personally, I dislike seeing something like "ALEPH HE YOD HE" in place of Hebrew letters when I see it in an ASCII text or something. All the more so for Greek, Arabic, and Coptic I suppose. If .html cannot handle different character sets, I would rule it out unless some updates are on the way... And no, I don't like reading a document with all the "hypertext" links in "bold blue underline". But as you said, they could only appear when a modifier key is pressed or something. I do think they would be helpful in many cases however, such as when you wanna "vide" something in 777! :) 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: Bruce Kroeze 3 Dec 94 11:27:24 Subject: Great God Ac? UpdReq -=> Bruce Kroeze sent a message to Rose Dawn on 30 Nov 94 23:46:02 <=- -=> Re: Great God Ac? <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. BK> If you want a stupid theory for the origin of this argument/fear, BK> here's my top-of-the-head attempt: BK> *** Stupid Theory Alert *** I'll go you one better, generalizing about generalizations (and turning the topic from others to ourselves): What psychologists call _projection_ is one of the important ways that the HGA lets one know where one's shortcomings are. IOW, that which we criticize the most strenuously in others, is often precisely what we need to work on, and the very criticism we offer is often precisely what we ourselves need to hear. So tighten up. OOPS!!! Love is the law, love under will. - CP ... In the midnight I was brighter than the moon; 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Al Ohrins 4 Dec 94 13:17:00 Subject: Solar enlightenment UpdReq Thus said Al Ohrins to Josh Norton concerning Solar enlightenment: Hi Al! JN> I don't think there will be a great deal of benefit in "forcing" JN> someone beyond their natural grade, assuming that the initiators are JN> actually capable of doing so. It probably won't harm them in any way, JN> but the benefits will be transitory. OTOH, they won't know what their JN> natural grade is until they've tried to push beyond it, so it's worth JN> going forward at least until they don't get anything out of it any JN> more. AO> What do you think happened to people like Victor Neuburg, Norman Mudd, AO> and MacGregor Mathers? Were they being "forced" (or forcing AO> themselves) beyond their natural grade (and into their natural grave )? AO> And in another vein, what about Besant and Leadbeater? I'm not certain that there's any one reason for their respective problems. In any case, we don't have enough info on their lives to say for certain what all the relevant factors are. And in some cases -- like Mathers' -- the testimony we do have is largely from prejudiced witnesses. But as I pointed out in the previous message, the original Golden Dawn system is a miserable failure when it comes to teaching people how to integrate the results of their initiations into their being. There seems to have been little or no consciousness on their part that opening of the perceptions to a new level needs to be followed by a deliberate re- organization of the self to absorb the new perceptions. I suspect they thought the process was entirely automatic, which it is not. A certain core part of the personality _is_ automatically reorganized, but the parts that are farther away from the conscious self, which operate semi-consciously or unconsciously, require deliberate attention before they can be reintegrated. If this is not done, then those latter parts can give the person a lot of trouble. I see quite a bit of this in Frater Achad's case, and perhaps the same is true of Mathers; Crowley seems to have done a bit better than the average for a G.D. graduate. In Neuberg's case, I would place most of the blame on his teacher. Crowley should have been encouraging his students to become individuals capable of making their own judgments about their proper path. Instead, he seemed to prefer a position of dominance, treating them in ways that at times amounted to a sort of psychological torture. This, IMO, is the worst possible way to deal with people within the context of the Thelemic current. Given the large number of his students who ended up as "failures" in Crowley's judgment, it is pretty obvious where the blame lies. He fucked up royally, and his students paid the price. As for the others, I don't have enough information to judge. ... You can't have everything. Where would you put it? ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Al Ohrins Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 6 Dec 94 12:06:10 Subject: Ordeals and Failure UpdReq Howdy, Josh! JN> In Neuberg's case, I would place most of the blame on his teacher. JN> Crowley should have been encouraging his students to become JN> individuals capable of making their own judgments about their proper JN> path. Instead, he seemed to prefer a position of dominance, treating JN> them in ways that at times amounted to a sort of psychological JN> torture. This, IMO, is the worst possible way to deal with people JN> within the context of the Thelemic current. Given the large number of JN> his students who ended up as "failures" in Crowley's judgment, it is JN> pretty obvious where the blame lies. He fucked up royally, and his JN> students paid the price. That does appear to be the case from the "outside". But you mentioned the Thelemic current. Liber AL is pretty explicit about teaching, making ordeals severe, and eliminating the "unfit". From that viewpoint, it seems A.C. was doing just what the doctor ordered. You could argue "another meaning" to those phrases, or say that Aiwaz was just plain wrong, but that could easily be just a fuzzy bunny cop-out. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Al Ohrins 7 Dec 94 18:56:00 Subject: Ordeals and Failure UpdReq Thus said Al Ohrins to Josh Norton concerning Ordeals and Failure: AO> Howdy, Josh! Hi Al! JN> within the context of the Thelemic current. Given the large number of JN> his students who ended up as "failures" in Crowley's judgment, it is JN> pretty obvious where the blame lies. He fucked up royally, and his JN> students paid the price. AO> That does appear to be the case from the "outside". AO> But you mentioned the Thelemic current. Liber AL is pretty explicit AO> about teaching, making ordeals severe, and eliminating the "unfit". AO> From that viewpoint, it seems A.C. was doing just what the doctor AO> ordered. You could argue "another meaning" to those phrases, or AO> say that Aiwaz was just plain wrong, but that could easily be just AO> a fuzzy bunny cop-out. Oh no! NOT THE FUZZY BUNNIES!!!!!! Yes, one could indeed argue that that is the case -- certainly Crowley did so. But "success is your proof"; insofar as we can judge the "rightness" of such an interpretation, we must do so by the results it produced. And the results aren't terribly encouraging, as we both know. To me, an ordeal is a test of abilities a person has gained through the instruction of his teacher and through practice and experience. For an ordeal to be a valid test, it must be concerned with the specifics of what was taught, and must come only after the teacher has made his best efforts to prepare the individual. In initiatory organizations, ordeals were normally the test for passage into the next highest grade of initiation. A "severe" test in this context would be one that ensured that only a few of the very best candidates passed from one level to another. An "unfit" person would be one who couldn't pass the test. Few, if any, of Crowley's "tests" had anything at all to do with skills and knowledge necessary to practice magick, or with the acquisition of specific traits of character appropriate to a given magickal grade. They seemed to have more in common with the English public-school philosophy that the way to turn a kid into a "real man" is to beat him at every opportunity. As generations of Englishmen demonstrate, it doesn't do this; rather it produces emotionally-stunted perverts, mostly sadists and masochists. He justified his behavior towards his students as a means of pointing out "character weaknesses"; but I can't think of a single instance where he made any _positive_ contributions towards overcoming them. This being the case, his tests aren't true ordeals, but simply abuse. ... A child of 5 could understand this! Bring me a child of 5! ___ X Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 X 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: Andy Bender 9 Dec 94 10:52:32 Subject: Clash Of The Aeons UpdReq -=> To Meta Therion sent a message to Andy Bender on 02 Dec 94 17:20:44 <=- -=> Re: Clash Of The Aeons <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. TMT> Personally, I don't care what aeon it is. People seem to get irate TMT> when I tell them that their magick isn't as affective as mine, and TMT> deep down inside it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. <<< TWIT FILTER ENGAGED >>> Love is the law, love under will. - CP ... the Sea of Time & Space thunder'd aloud 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: Martin Krogh-Poulsen 9 Dec 94 10:56:50 Subject: More AC Bull. UpdReq -=> Martin Krogh-Poulsen sent a message to Christeos Pir on 01 Dec 94 03:37:06 <=- -=> Re: More AC Bull. <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. MK> Have you read P.R.Knig's "Thelema, repressed homosexuality and MK> Paranoia"? MK> Now THATs one big collection of AC and Thelemic Bull! No, haven't had the, uh ... well, I haven't read it. Never even heard of it, in fact. Love is the law, love under will. - CP ... Excess of sorrow laughs: excess of joy weeps. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: Tony Iannotti 9 Dec 94 10:53:46 Subject: OCR UpdReq -=> Tony Iannotti sent a message to Christeos Pir on 05 Dec 94 18:43:18 <=- -=> Re: OCR <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. TI> M:\WINDOWS\LIBER_AL.HLP 1329852 6-02-94 11:01p "File not found." Love is the law, love under will. - V - ... I was alone in a great park, and by a certain hillock was a ring 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: The Cegorach 9 Dec 94 10:54:28 Subject: Randolph UpdReq -=> The Cegorach sent a message to All on 05 Dec 94 06:06:47 <=- -=> Re: Randolph <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. TC> What has PB Randolph written? Not much, lately. Love is the law, love under will. - CP ... in the midst of the primal forest of Eternity. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Brother Podex Area: Thelema To: Tony Iannotti 11 Dec 94 21:18:54 Subject: OCR UpdReq If you need any other voluenteers to type in the carbons, I'll help. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: Fir 11 Dec 94 16:51:42 Subject: WM. BLAKE CAMP NEWSLETTER UpdReq -=> Fir sent a message to Christeos Pir on 07 Dec 94 07:25:30 <=- -=> Re: WM. BLAKE CAMP NEWSLETTER <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Fi> I'm finally getting around to sending some money for your Fi> newsletter and want to make sure to include enough for Fi> back issues. Fi> Fi> How many issues have you published so far? Fi> Fi> Thanks for that first issue you sent in case I haven't Fi> thanked you yet! I've got good news and bad news. The bad news is that due to rising costs subscriptions are going up to $18/year -- the good news is that each issue is now 20 pages in a magazine-style format. They've also gone from being done in PFS: First Publisher, to being composed in MS Publisher, a BIG improvement in appearance, particularly with the addition of artwork. Also, back issues are still only a buck each. I've just finished printing issue #5 (Jan. 1995 ev), so a subscription plus a complete set of back issues (not counting the sample of #1 that you already have) would be $21, which would take you to the end of '95. You can make a check out to me, or to "Cash." To me would be safer. Uh... that is, to Chris Feldman, not Christeos Pir! Love is the law, love under will. - CP ... It is easy to tell the live force from the dead matter. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718