From: Loki Area: Thelema To: Farrell Mcgovern 5 Dec 94 15:24:14 Subject: RE: Crowley on CDROM? UpdReq FM> I would propose that it be done in HTML, or the Hyper Text Markup That's a very good idea. It's not hard to do and one can use Mosaic (public domain, I think, but you'd have to get permission (at least) to include it in a package), or one of the variants thereof. It would work so well because, as you said, it would support hyper-linked text, sound, and graphics (including 'movies'). You could view someone performing signs, working with sigils & Enochian tablets, etc., or working with Geomancy, which is something I've never been able to grasp just from books and charts. You could look at Frater Achad's "3D Tree" by rotating it around. You could view someone performing various yoga postures. You could hear the pronounciation of the Greek or Enochian (or whatever) bits of some rituals. Let me know if anyone comes up with some plans. Pax, Dave 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: Thelema To: Fir 6 Dec 94 12:34:14 Subject: Re: DIS & DAT UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. > Sounds like a good idea to me. I did see something by Julia > on one of the OPEN echos about 3rd being for working couples > in some trads. I'll post something to her if I remember...or maybe you could, if you remember. ;> > I'll say something if I hear anything further about the Women > in GD book being available. Good call, thanks! > list at the moment. A quick glance thru it makes me think I'll > have some stuff to discuss with you when I get to it. Oops, I mangled that quote...King's Tantra book. Not at the top of my list either, I was just impressed by how quickly you managed to get hold of a copy after getting the title & publisher. > BTW, in looking thru _The Book of the Law for Laymen_ by > Rev. Yaj Nololos, S.P. he suggests that thick leavings of > red wine is almost-frozen red wine. Thought you might > get a tickle out of that. LOL...my favorite is still "the half-inch left in the bottom of the bottle after a celebration." ;> Love is the law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: JOSEPH MAX Area: Thelema To: BRUCE KROEZE 3 Dec 94 13:47:00 Subject: Re: CARROLL & INITIATION UpdReq -=> Quoting Bruce Kroeze to Joseph Max <=- BK> cop out. JM> Would you care to elaborate on that remark? BK> Sure. In a nutshell, I see Carroll's statement as an elaborate excuse BK> to not _bother_ to perform or design formal initiations. A point by BK> point follows: Actually, this is not the case. I did not quote the entire article (from _Liber Null_, "Initation"), but he goes on to describe an elaborate set of proposals for the design of formal initiations, and the circumstances under which they should, _and should not_, be administered. The point here is not that formal initiation ceremonies are of no value; rather that sticking with a single, unwavering formula (as is the OTO's way of doing it) is of dubious value when compared to designing an initiation specifically for a particular individual. In the group I associate with, the AutonomatriX (A:.X), each initiate designs hir _own_ initiation with the assistance of the already initiated members of the Temple they will be affiliating with. Read on for more details of this process. BK> P.Carroll> "Initiation can never be performed according to some set BK> formula." BK> Strangely dogmatic for a chaos magician. Of course, he goes on to BK> explain why he feels this way, but to really correspond with probable BK> reality, and to drop the Pope-dom, Mr. Carroll could have said, BK> "Initiation can be done according to set formulae, however, significant BK> increases in meaning and effectiveness have been found to be gained by BK> attention to the following:" C> "No two people will have the same requirements, abilites, or shortcomings." BK> A moot point. It is the job of the experimental initiator to discover BK> common ground that skeletons of initiations can be built around. BK> Carroll seems to prefer to just throw up his hands. Yet the policy of administering the exact same initiation ceremony to everyone without regard for individuality, as is the case with the OTO, is in it's own way a "throwing up of hands"! Carroll does tend to be rather laconic in his writings, 'tis true. Of course you had no way of knowing that he _does_ make such proposals further on. To quote the next paragraph in the essay: "When a student or neophyte approaches the guardians of an organised body of occult knowledge, he will generally be required to undergo some form of initiation if he survives an initial period of instruction and assessment." Carroll then goes on to describe the way he sees such initiations should be devised by Chaos Magic organizations: "An operation of this type should never be repeated at a so-called higher level. If the adepts of an Order are not able to completely satisfy themselves with the candidate and take him fully into their confidence, then they have no business initiating him in the first place. Orders within orders exist only to manufacture hierarchy for it's own sake." Clearly this is quite unlike the multi-tiered initiation system favored by nearly every occult order in existence. The thrust of the arguement here is that the advantages inherent in a "lodge" initiation are fully realized after the first event. Further formal "grade" initiations are mere artifices that encourage nepotism and favoritism in the organisation, especially in the case of "by invitation only" initiatory levels such as are common in the OTO and TOGD. C> "Existence itself can be seen as a continuous initiation punctuated by C> periodic death and rebirth, which itself has the greatest initiatory C> potential." BK> Again, I'm in agreement with the main point, his implications BK> are another matter. It seems to be a curiously Daoist point, "Life BK> itself will initiate you." On the one hand a wonderful point, on the BK> other, another cop-out of responsibility and work. Any initiation, formal or otherwise, is empty and useless without the desire and ability to overcome the obstacles and incorporate the lessons learned into one's life. That this requires taking responsibility and doing hard work goes without saying. Cop outs are always available in abundance. One could just as easliy say that by formalising the initiatory process, it allows the initiate to "rest on his laurels" by saying, "Well, I've gone through the initiation, so I don't need to _do_ anything else! I've been automatically enlightened!" C> "Beyond a certain level, the magician must seek his own initiatory C> experiences deliberately, or may feel that something inside C> of himself is pushing him into these experiences." BK> Exactly, this is why people seek out OTO, TOGD, TOS, whatever BK> initiations. They recognize that they want to take charge of the slow BK> process of enlightenment. I don't think this sentence stands with the BK> previous three very well. It seems to be a reversal of position BK> combined with a refusal to help. As I see it, allowing someone else to "initiate" me is allowing someone _else_ to "take charge" of my process of enlightenment. Chaotes are hardy individualists, and tend not to place their trust in _any_ earthly agency to be an infallible "royal road" to enlightenment. That sentence connects very well to the one I quoted this time: that "beyond a certain level" one must seek and devise one's own highly personalized initiation processes. Carroll is clearly unopposed to an initation into an order. It is the "inner circle" initiations that he (and I, for that matter) regard as useless artifacts with no other pupose than to exert power over others. If the "higher level" initiation qualifications were such that no one could be arbitrarily denied access to them by caprice, I would have fewer objections to the idea. But this is not the case in the OTO; if I happen to rub a 4* or higher officer of my lodge the wrong way, then I will _never_ be allowed to rise beyond the "Man of Earth" level in the Order, regardless of how qualified I might actually be. Don't try to tell me that attaining the second Triad renders one immune to being corrupted by power or affected by petty personality clashes and emotional bullshit. Yeah, and maybe monkeys will fly out of my butt... C> "There is no fixed route which one can traverse and become an adept or C> master by rote. There are too many variables in existence to make a C> simple equation possible." BK> And we see the final proof of my point. "Gee, I'd like to help you, BK> but there are too many variables. Too bad, go make up your own system. BK> We wont even try." Well, this is garbage in my not-so-humble-opinion. Oh, but he has tried, and so have other Chaos Magicians. Carroll devised two self-initiatory workings, Chaos Monasticism and Chaos Jyhad. Another IOT adept devised the Eucharist of Chaos, and I myself devised the Oracle of Chaos (BTW, these relate to the four elementals - wands, swords, disks and cups respectively). Without going into too much detail (unless someone is interested), each is a self-initiatory working in which the aspirant takes a magical oath to adhere to a strict set of observences for a set period of time. I have performed all but the Eucharist myself (that's next on my list) and they have very powerful initiatory effects. This type of self-initiatory pathworking process is a vernerable old tradition that goes all the way back to the Sacred Magic of Abra-Melin. Furthermore, in the same article, Carroll outlines the "skeleton" (as you would have it) of how to devise an initiation into an Order: "It must contain all of the following elements: An Ordeal - to test the fortitude and strength of the candidate, and to test various abilities that the Order may require. Am Empowerment - with certain powers and knowledge that are the property of the Order. An Induction - which may place certain obligations of duty on the candidate. The Unexpected - the Order should be capable of engineering some event which will greatly surprise the candidate, overturn his expectations, and force him to think and act in a way which is at varience with his normal behavior." In the AutonomatriX, each candidate is required to devise their own initiation ceremony, the depth and power of which is part of the candidate's "test" of magickal ability. It must be approved in advance by the initiating Temple's membership by majority vote in the presense of the candidate, that the candidate might know if there is a reason why it is not approved so it can be revised and thence accepted. However, the Temple initiators must devise an unexpected element into the candidate's ceremony, tailored to each candidate personally. The candidate must be affiliated with the Temple for a minimum of three months before the initiation ceremony can be held. This gives the both the Temple members and the candidate time to work with each other and therefore be able to tailor the initiation to the individual's needs and abilities. The operant theory is that a candidate who does not understand hir own self well enough to be able to "push their own buttons" to produce a profound psychological effect on themselves is not ready for _any_ initation in the first place. The details of an initiation in the A:.X are not oath-bound - there is no need; for every initation, especially the "unexpected" part, is different. Initiation experiences may be (and usually are) discussed openly and freely with candidates so that they may cull ideas for their own initiations. For that matter, all Temple functions are open to all members. In the A:.X scheme of things, there are _truly_ only "three grades": full member, candidate and NON-member! (Hermit, Lover and Man of Earth in a much more real sense than the OTO's strange kludging together of their old 9-plus grade system with Liber AL's requirement of "three Grades"!) When one is initiated, one recieves the Corpus Fecundi of the A:.X : a compendium of ALL magical knowledge in the Guild's pocession. There are no hoarded "inner order secrets" to be used as blackmail fodder to ensure the loyal ass-kissing of the newer members. It is attendent on the new Guild member to research, experiment and attain _new_ knowledge to be added to the Corpus, rather than waste time playing toady to the upper echelons so they can be tossed scraps of knowledge if and when the high mucky-mucks deign to bless them with it. In this manner, both the value of the "formal" initiation experience _and_ the value of self-initiation are preserved and encouraged. It works. BK> Yes, people are different. Yes, there is no one path. Yes, to cross BK> the abyss (or whatever you want to call it), you probably will need to BK> forge your own path. But, I don't think it does anyone any service to BK> say that nothing can be learned from formal initiation or study. The BK> K&C (which is a decent step for most people I hazard to say) can be BK> reached by pretty well mapped out paths. If you don't like the paths, BK> fine, build others, but don't just throw up your hands and try to BK> intellectually justify your refusal to help. But I hope you see now that no one is proposing that, but rather trying to work out new methods of enacting the initiatory process that are not hopelessly stuck in the antiquated manners and mores of 19th century anachronisms. BK> Maybe the reason everything seems so hard and individual to Chaos BK> Magicians is their stubborn refusal to learn the Qabalah. It must be BK> difficult to build on the works of others if you don't agree on a BK> language. I think that Austin Spare's Alphabet of Desire, with it's use of Planetary and Astrological symbolism (which has the distinct advantage of being steeped into our culture already) is a quite useful and effective language. It's easy to learn, can be tailored to the individual and used for sigil work with a high degree of effectivenes. And it doesn't require learning not only another spoken language, but another system of _writing_ as well; it's not hopelessly mired in hundreds-of-years-old, antiquated, sexist, outmoded thinking, and avoids the Qabalah's ridiculous, locked in dualism of good/evil-light/dark-male/female-devil/angel dichotomies. Perhaps an equal impediment the Hermetic Magician's stubborn insistence that the Qabalah is the do-all and end-all of magical philosophy. I find it to be more akin to Classical Physics, in the sense that humanity has reached a point in magical development that calls for a radical updating of the methodology of magic itself, as Quantum Mechanics superceded Classical Physics when it became clear that there were many, many cases in which Classical Physics was woefully inadequate. More than enough anachronisms have been culled from mouldering Hebrew scrolls and dusty tomes in the British Museum. It is high time that we concentrate on efficiently putting the techniques of magic to work, and elevate magic from being solely an _antique_ art and make it a _living_ art again! ... "Truth, sir, is a White Elephant." -- Samuel Johnson ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Tony Iannotti Area: Thelema To: Martin Krogh-Poulsen 7 Dec 94 10:38:24 Subject: C.F. Russell and Michael Bertiaux UpdReq MK> How can one get ahold of this "Logos, Mantram, and Magic" text? I would guess you would ask Keith for a copy. That's what I intend to do. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718