From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: Rose Dawn 22 Nov 94 20:32:30 Subject: Re: MASS OF PHOENIX UpdReq -=> Rose Dawn sent a message to Fir on 20 Nov 94 10:14:04 <=- -=> Re: Re: MASS OF PHOENIX <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. RD> I heard about the book also, and I figured it was the same one Julia RD> referred to a while back--I *think* the author's name was the same as RD> the one she mentioned, but I ain't 100% positive. This is one that was RD> just recently published, yes? So, it's out? RD> LOL...I heard one theory lately, that 'leavings of red wine' is the RD> half-inch left in the bottom of the bottle after a celebration! Does this apply to Boone's Farm? Love is the law, love under will. - CP ... and the Poison of the Infinite hath consumed me utterly. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: Tim Maroney 23 Nov 94 17:50:28 Subject: 10 = 1 Discussion UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. TM> I find it sad, but I don't know what I can do about it except write TM> messages like this one, which I know will be ignored or demonized TM> by those who need to hear them most. Awww... Poor, poor Timmy... The voice crying in the wilderness. How awful: people not only don't think and act and believe how you think they should, they have the gall to either ignore you or -quelle horreur!- disagree. It must be so hard being you. Has it occurred to you that the reason your constant puling is ignored is that people _are_ treating you Thelemically: that is, operating from the notion that what you say may be true _for you_, and, not seeing things the same, leave you to it? At least Tyagi, with whom I _strongly_ disagree on some fundamental concepts, offers some constructive material in the form of essays, rituals, etc. that build upon his particular worldview. You used to at least be amusing in your snottiness. Nowadays your endless carping about the nasty OTO and the world's plethora of pseudo-Thelemites (of course, only someone who thinks like you do could be a _real_ Thelemite) is simply a big yawn. When's the last time you wrote something 'pro-actionary' or constructive, instead of simply reactionary and whiny? Love is the law, love under will. - Christeos Pir Fr. Vitriol Io, O.T.O. ... The priest of Isis lifted the veil of Isis, and was slain 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: All 24 Nov 94 11:06:34 Subject: Editorial Page UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. It seems like hardly a week goes by without hearing yet another horror story about the closed-minded fundie-Thelemites and their fascist old- Aeon Order. Now, I think I'm pretty fundamentalist in some ways --I do take Liber AL pretty seriously-- but I have to say that after several years of hanging around, doing magick with, and talking to, LOTS of people in the O.T.O., I have yet to meet anyone that has been in the Order long enough to make it to the Second Triad, that falls into that category. Even among my brothers and sisters in the Man of Earth, I find attitudes and posturing to be the exception by far. I don't know if I've just been lucky, or if stories about the few jerks that have rubbed people the wrong way have multiplied in the re-telling. Naturally, that's not to say that I've fallen in love with everyone I've met in the Order, or that I agree blindly with everything I've heard and read by my brothers and sisters. But by and large, it seems that the O.T.O. 'works.' That is, the Order seems to be a place where one can learn, teach and share with others who have accepted the Freedom and Responsibility of Thelema, and who share similar goals in regard to acheiving and maintaining personal Gnosis, and to establishing the Law of Thelema throughout society. As for those others, I neither know nor care who they are. - Fr. Vitriol, Io From _Heaven & Hell_, Vol. I No. 4 (Yule 1994 e.v.) Love is the law, love under will. - CP ... bear me away upon the Bosom of Nuit! 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: Michelle Hass 26 Nov 94 22:57:30 Subject: More AC Bull. UpdReq -=> Michelle Hass sent a message to Christeos Pir on 22 Nov 94 11:21:12 <=- -=> Re: More AC Bull. <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. If it ain't one thing, as Rosanne Rosanna Danna would say, it's another. I finally got through to BaphoNet, and now the Arena seems to be down. CP> I'm tempted to have some business cards CP> made up and start sticking them into these books, inscribed "If you CP> want the truth about these subjects, contact ... " MH> Do it! Do it! I know, but it's awful close to the idea of flooding the library with Chick tracts. Bad enough that they infiltrate the Book Sales and thrift shops with their Good News bibles and such. MH> It's just logical fallacy in action. Pay it no mind. If it were just a personal annoyance, it'd be one thing. The PITA is that this turns out to be the only source of (mis)information for John and Jane Q. Public. Which is why I made the remark about a book-buying campaign, when the money permits. MH> If Mike _did_ say that, I would have found it very funny. I asked for several reasons, one of which being that I wondered if this were just more of the author's garbage; another was that it bothered me that even if he really said it (which he says he did), the author used it to add fuel to the fire. Ah well; more fools, they. Love is the law, love under will. - CP ... the Heart that Thou dost encircle is an Universal Heart. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: Tony Iannotti 26 Nov 94 22:56:30 Subject: OCR Rec'd UpdReq -=> Tony Iannotti sent a message to Christeos Pir on 23 Nov 94 07:10:16 <=- -=> Re: CD-ROMs <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. TI> Should take you up on that, but while I am in a buying mood, I am TI> going to get a scanner, and only ask humans to do t he really bad TI> carbons. My experience so far (mind you, I didn't buy the top of the line) is that OCR still has a LONG way to go. Even scanning photos is a PITA. Line art, such as old woodcuts and such, works best. If you don't get the scanner, and need stuff scanned, let me know: I bought one a month or so ago so I could jazz up the Blake Camp newsletter. (That was the excuse, anyway! ) TI> Well, that's before my time. ;-) Riiiight! Love is the law, love under will. - V - ... The eyes of fire, the nostrils of air 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: Michael Aquino 26 Nov 94 22:57:20 Subject: More AC Bull UpdReq -=> Michael Aquino sent a message to Christeos Pir on 21 Nov 94 08:12:17 <=- -=> Re: Re: More AC Bull. <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. MA> Yes, I did, in a somewhat whimsical - but not unkind - account of the MA> affair that I wrote for the Temple of Set's newsletter. I was of course MA> referring to the O.T.O.'s highest degree of XI* - Oh, I figured that much. I just wasn't sure if this was more of the author's BS or not. Unfortunately, as I said, he took your ribbing and used it as more fuel for his arguments about Crowley's, Thelemites' and the OTO's depravity. Love is the law, love under will. - CP ... and for many days and nights did I love her, 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: Bruce Kroeze 26 Nov 94 22:57:54 Subject: Guru hoodoo UpdReq -=> Bruce Kroeze sent a message to Michelle Hass on 23 Nov 94 21:03:05 <=- -=> Re: chaos magick practice <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. BK> I just can't make myself disentangle magick from my life for a _year_ BK> to participate in a different sort of magickal practice (psychotherapy) BK> the effectiveness of which seems to be miniscule. Even worse, from my BK> perspective is that hearkens back to the bad-old-days of guruism. "I BK> can't get better without someone to help me." Lastly, too darn BK> expensive. BK> I would heartily appreciate thoughts from others on this. As far as the 'guruism' aspect: just because no one can do it for you but you, doesn't mean no one can assist, facilitate or guide you along the way. I've never undergone psychotherapy, and from the outside it does seem as though the vast majority simply never get quote-unquote "cured," nevertheless, it also seems that many, many people -including some Thelemites of my acquaintance- get help, insight, and self-understanding from it. There's also the problem (extrapolating from my experience of AA), that some people use "I don't need anyone else to help me" as an excuse to never get better. Love is the law, love under will. - CP ... Thus shall equilibrium become perfect. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Fir Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 27 Nov 94 16:43:26 Subject: Solar enlightenment UpdReq Hi Josh! You're a self initiatory kind of guy, right. Well in the GD when a candidate starts on an initiatory path they are sometimes given a spiel about are you sure you want to do this, what are you doing, etc. Theoretically each of the initations deals with one element and so the candidate is not considered to be put back together or whole until they've completed all the elements. In Wicca, some would say that it's not a good idea to hang out in 2nd degree indefinitely, that if one is going to take 2nd degree that one should eventually go on to take 3rd. Have you seen any correlation in your solitary work and initiations where you might say that once started on the path one should continue until they reach at least a certain station? Blessings, Fir 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Michelle Hass Area: Thelema To: Joseph Max 27 Nov 94 09:06:02 Subject: Re: Chaos Magick Practic UpdReq Fi> In all fairness, the GD's systematic approach to magick is not a bad Fi> way to approach getting into Enochian magick. JM>No, it isn't. It does reflect, however, the great amount of "moral" JM>indoctrination involved in going through the GD's grade system. This is very JM>common amongst magical orders, and the GD is hardly alone in this. Most of JM>the "vernerable" old Orders insist on indoctrinating the beginner into a JM>strict moral system before imparting any of the actual techniques of magical JM>work. As I see it, this is the main divergence between practitoners of Chaos JM>Magic (especially within such groups as the Pact and the AutonomatriX) and JM>the traditional orders: Chaos Magic is morally "neutral". This is not to say JM>that Chaotes have no ethics - not at all. But they must find their ethical JM>doctrines elsewhere; it is not attached to the study of magic itself. JM>Well, a lot of what I was referring to was not the mechanics of ritual work JM>itself - as I pointed out later, I _love_ a good ritual! I was referring JM>rather to what I mentioned above - the "moral indoctrination" that goes JM>along with the technique. About 90% of the Neophyte Ritual is preaching JM>about codes of morality, and pounding these precepts into the applicants JM>brain with threats of painful, gooey death! I took my Neophyte in the Thelemic Order of the Golden Dawn, and let me say, without revealing too much, that outside from pledging my upholding and promotion of the Law of Thelema, there was absolutely no moral indoctrination whatsoever in the Neophyte ritual. It had more to do with internal attitudes and hidden feelings than anything else. It had a lot to do with the psychological, as would be expected in an order founded by an active psychotherapist, Dr. Christopher Hyatt. I am no longer associated with them, and have decided to continue my work without affiliating with any magickal order. But that does not mean their approach might not have value to other people according to their personal temperment and Will. --.\\<-H-- * SLMR 2.1a * It's not Do what thou WHIM, it's Do What Thou Wilt!!! 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Michelle Hass Area: Thelema To: Doug Plexico 27 Nov 94 09:11:04 Subject: Copy-rights... UpdReq DP>In the US, a book is supposed to only have a 25 year DP>copyright and after that it becomes public domain. At DP>least this is from my understanding. I get confused how DP>books older than 25 years have a new copyright, I think if DP>it is modified, then a new copyright can be gotton. I. DP>too, would like to know the truth of this. It's actually 50 years or 50 after the death of the author, whichever comes first. Since the US is now a signatory to the Berne Convention, and this is a clause in said Convention, this is how the law works now. Since Crowley died in 1947, if it weren't for the actions of the OTO all of Crowley's writings would either be in the public domain or on their way to the public domain. I believe survivors or heirs of a writer can renew copyright for 50 years under the Berne Convention. A corporation can also do this if it still exists. --.\\<-H-- * SLMR 2.1a * It's not Do what thou WHIM, it's Do What Thou Wilt!!! 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Vere Chappell Area: Thelema To: All 27 Nov 94 16:37:32 Subject: TOT Public Solstice Ritual UpdReq TEMPLE OF THELEMA presents Ritual of the RETURN OF THE LIGHT Come join us for a Winter Solstice celebration All Welcome! Wednesday, December 28, 1994 Arrival Time: 7:00 - 7:30 PM Ceremony begins at 7:30 PM Refreshments & Social Hour to follow LOCATION: Odd Fellows Hall 4215 N. Tyler Avenue El Monte, California Parking at rear of building Donations Welcome For more information call (213) 466-1058 Sponsored by TEMPLE OF THELEMA 222 N. Manhattan Place, Los Angeles, CA 90004 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: To Meta Therion Area: Thelema To: The Cegorach 27 Nov 94 23:47:20 Subject: OTO UpdReq TC> Re: the ninth. You should be able to figure out the 'secret' of the TC> ninth degree from publically available material. TC> Re: holders of the IXth...well, there must be at least *one*. TC> Hymenaeus Beta holds the Xth, which rather presupposes the IXth, does TC> it not? Bill Heidrick is also a IXth, is he not? Again, publically TC> available info.... I am not familiar with Heidrick. Hymanaeus Beta is assumed which is probably a fault of mine. I have personally never met an initiate over the 3rd degree. I'm not really certain that this is a bad thing either. Perhaps the reason that i am turned off by the OTO right now is the same reason that the people that I met were not advanced members? I think that I have figured out what I was wanting to know anyway now. Books do tell alot...even fiction. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: Thelema To: Fir 27 Nov 94 08:01:10 Subject: Re: WOMEN OF GD UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. > Well it's mentioned in print as _Magical Women of the Golden > Dawn: Rebels and Priestesses_ by Mary K. Greer (Wingbow Press > 1994) but when I called Serpents Occult this past week they > thought it wasn't in print yet. Kinda like _Magick_? Bummer! Let us know if/when you get hold of a copy or have more definite news...I'm definitely interested in picking up a copy! Thanks for the update. :> Love is the law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718