From: Ned Area: Thelema To: TIM MARONEY 22 Nov 94 02:28:00 Subject: dissemination UpdReq TM>Micahel Aquino was kind enough to send me a rather long TM>document from the Crystal Tablet, and I am pleased to report TM>that his interest in philosophy is not the "smoke and mirrors" TM>which you have represented it to be. In fact, I have not seen TM>any other occult or pagan attempt to systematize philosophy that TM>is as well-informed, seriously intended, or near success as this one. Sounds great. However, while I dont mean to impugn your integrity, hearsay is dubious by definition. I'd love to read it. TM>If the Temple were to make such documents more widely available, TM>I think it could only help their reputation. I think that you are probably correct. On the other hand, a self-congratulatory smugness is all the more suspect without an accompanying willingness to substantiate its basis in fact. The Temple's defenders (Balanone and Zepher) claim and insinuate (respectively) that we mere humans ain't up to the task of comprehending the Temple's glorious achievements, but I havent seen anything so dizzying yet. I have seen Mr Aquino make a number of lucid and elucidating comments in here which make his scattershot responses to my questions that much more mysterious. If he had said "Its my product, pay for it first" I would accept that. He's not under any obligation to answer, but, as you say, "hand-waving is evident". TM>(This is not to say the document is without flaws; there are TM>certainly portions where hand-waving is evident, together with TM>some apparent contradictions and assertions which greatly outstrip TM>the evidence; but compared to the bilious spewings that stand in for TM>philosophy in most of the occult and pagan worlds, it is excellent.) I am prepared to eat my own bilious spewings, and spew-wading is a requisite skill in this industry. Every once in a while one trips over an edible nugget or palatable tidbit. If you say the TOS has beef stew where I smell boiled socks, well, I'll have to take your word for it - but he offered you a meal, and he wont even show me the menu. And since I am no doubt boring ya'll, I'll stop my boorish prodding. Ned. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Michelle Hass 21 Nov 94 00:00:00 Subject: The process of initiatio UpdReq MH> 93, bro... Hi Michelle! JN>Just in case it's gotten lost in all this brouhaha, I would like to JN>point out again that the "traditional" magickal systems don't expect JN>people to jump right from an unenlighted state into a state of JN>identification with the divine. There are typically three major stages: JN>[....] MH> Wow...that's the best way of putting the process I have ever heard. MH> Forwarding a copy of this post to my teacher. I think he'll agree MH> totally with it. We aim to please. MH> Where I am at is kind of half in the first step and half in that second MH> step. I was forced back from totally identifying with the Tipareth MH> process by the fact that I still have a lot of work to do on the first MH> step. I did a botched talismanic ritual which opened up a lot of my MH> problems with panic and depression, all very basic emotional stuff. MH> [....] Sounds like you're on the right track. You really have to get rid of that garbage, or it'll keep dragging you back down. But it's the influence of Tiphereth that enables you to be "objective" enough about these inner events to overcome them, so keep looking to it, as well. MH> Do you have Internet access? If so, let's continue this conversation via MH> e-mail. If not, send me private Fido mail at 1:102/943. Sorry on both counts. Don't have the funds for either Internet or my BBS's Fido e-mail. Right now I can receive Fido email but can't send it. ___ X SPEED 1.30 [NR] X 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kevin Bold Area: Thelema To: Joseph Max 20 Nov 94 08:06:24 Subject: RE: THELEMIC MEANINGS UpdReq 93! KB> Earlier this morning I looked at your original post. Using the "log" KB> feature of my version of ProComm Plus, I was able to turn it into a KB> text file and save it on my hard disk as I read it. The original post KB> made no mention of it being the work of anyone other than yourself. JM> Look again in the messages concerning it immediately afterward. I pointed JM> out that a few of the quips were mine but the bulk came from a posting on JM> the Internet. Again I apologise for the confusion. That message is long gone at this time (and believe me, I looked for it after reading the exchange between you and Kayla Block!). I didn't see it, and had I done so, I would not have approached you as if the work were your own. But I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and accept your apology. 93--93/93... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kevin Bold Area: Thelema To: Michael Aquino 17 Nov 94 05:19:52 Subject: Re: book of coming forth 2/ UpdReq 93! KB> As long as your initiations do not include criminal activity, what you KB> do is your own business. MA> And they don't. Didn't think they did, but thanks for the reply. 93--93/93... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kevin Bold Area: Thelema To: Frater H.A.C.A. 17 Nov 94 05:24:44 Subject: TGD UpdReq 93! TMT> With the A.'.A.'. being a macrocosmic organization aligning intself with TMT> the cosmic energies and the OTO being a "religious" order seeking to TMT> spread the law of Thelema, where does the TGD fit in? FH> This isn't meant to be a cop out, but I see it as a mixture of both. We FH> are a religious order, but unlike the OTO (OTO members please help if I'm FH> wrong!) the emphasis is placed more on the individual than the group. Well, not exactly. No individual member has to give anything up on behalf of the group unless it is their True Will to do so. Like any group endeavor, the only "right" the individual gives up is the "right" to act irresponsibly. FH> The TGD is a rosicrucian body, the OTO is a Masonic body. The OTO is indeed rooted in Masonry, and is, in a way, Freemasonry made new for the New Aeon. But OTO initiation will _not_ make one a Mason anymore than Wiccan initiation will make one a Mason. 93--93/93... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: Tony Iannotti 21 Nov 94 20:41:00 Subject: CD-ROMs Rec'd UpdReq -=> Tony Iannotti sent a message to Christeos Pir on 20 Nov 94 10:13:20 <=- -=> Re: Crowley on CDROM? <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. TI> OK, there's two! ;-) We're really rolling now! TI> Yes, I think it would be interesting. We have the CD of AC's version TI> of two or three, that would be a great start: they're already digital. Hmm... First of all, one would have to want those particular versions, and the accent might be a distraction. Second, unless you've worked some _real_ magick and cleaned them up since my cassette dubs of the old LP was made, they sound like hammered shit. Third, as you mention, he only recorded the first two. Anyway, wouldn't ANY line input be equal? IOW, wouldn't it still go through the same DAC-ADC path as, say, a microphone? Or would it actually go digital all the way? (Way beyond my level of education here.) TI> It's not very big, you could download it! I'll try to remember to TI> file attach it to Anon. Well, like I said, I haven't been able to get on the board for more than about 1/2 sec. (I'll probably have $5 in calls, none of which have gone through.) If you were to happen to file attatch that and Tau Apiryon's posts, it'd be most gratefully received. TI> Whoops, there goes my swiss cheese memory again. Which material? TI> The Mezla? I did key in Liber 66, and post it here. Should I do it TI> again? Sorry! Oh, duh. [smack!] Tell the truth, I had forgotten that that was the material you had mentioned. I did indeed capture that file. Well, if you need a hand with anything else, let me know. TI> Whoops, hold that PO, Jeeves....... I think I'll delay on that TI> $1,995 Pinnacle drive for a month or two..... Keep in mind that this is no more than industry rumour at this point. Dvorak is sometimes right on the money, sometimes full of it. A difference of that much in price might make it worth waiting just in case he's right, though. Remember the first Betamax? $1600, and that was _without_ the tuner! Love is the law, love under will. - V - ... furious lions sound the song of Joy 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: Jams 21 Nov 94 20:48:44 Subject: More AC Bull. UpdReq -=> Jams sent a message to All on 21 Nov 94 03:43:02 <=- -=> Re: More AC Bull. <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Ja> Is there anything particularly wrong with AC engaging in anal sex? I Ja> do it all the time and find it to be a wonderful thing. why is this Ja> considered to be BS? Bully for you. The BS is in saying that this is all that the OTO is about. I could care less what Crowley did with his ass, or what you do with your ass. But to write a book and then fill it with innuendoes, inaccuracies, and outright lies, while at the same time pretending to be presenting facts about a subject that has a lot of people hysterical, _is_ BS. I notice you skipped over the part about sacrificing babies. Did you actually read my whole message -which you quoted in entirety, quite needlessly, BTW- or did the reference to anal sex freeze you like a deer in the headlights? Love is the law, love under will. - Christeos Pir ... Light, Life, Love; Force, Fantasy, Fire; 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Michelle Hass Area: Thelema To: Christeos Pir 22 Nov 94 10:12:00 Subject: Baloney about Unca' Al Rec'd UpdReq CP> I can get netmail via 1:109/235.0 or E-mail via: CP> christeos_pir@f235.n109.z1.fidonet.org or snail mail via: I will continue this conversation via E-mail. Thanks for the info! 93, --.\\<-H-- michelle.hass@ledge.com * SLMR 2.1a * It's not Do what thou WHIM, it's Do What Thou Wilt!!! 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Michelle Hass Area: Thelema To: Michael Aquino 22 Nov 94 10:36:02 Subject: Re: Stargate (2 of 4) UpdReq MH> I thought the ventilation shaft in question was oriented to view the MH> star Sirius. MA>I gather that it lines up to Orion if you dial the sky back to 2600 BCE. R.A.W. cites the ventilation hole as being lined up to Sirius in his "Cosmic Trigger I." Then again, Sirius is so close to Orion anyhow in the Northern sky that they probably both could have been viewed through the ventilation hole in 2600 bce. MA>Thanks for the account of Chiniginish. I became fascinated with the various MA>California Indian cultures as a teenager, because of my very active MA>involvement in the Order of the Arrow, a Boy Scout activity specializing in MA>Indian dancing, regalia, pageantry, etc. My husband Richie actually made it to Eagle Scout! He was a drummer even then, so the Order of the Arrow often dragooned him to do drumming duty. MA>Of course it focused on the "nice" MA>side of things, not Buffie St. Marie. Or the A.I.M., of course! MA>But it leave me with a lasting respect MA>for California's original inhabitants. I find the legend of Chiniginish has interesting parallels to the portrait of Ra Hoor Khuit (Re Horakhti) in Liber AL. I did a ceramic version of the Stele which depicted Ra Hoor Khuit as Knifewing Man, a Zuni deity which also has aspects of Chiniginish and Ra Hoor Khuit, with Nuit depicted as Rainbow Woman, a deity of the Dineh people who is often seen in sacred paintings as arching over the scene in a very Nuit-like manner, and the serpent Quetzalcoatl coiling underneath the scene, to recall the line "O winged snake of light, Hadit." It is now my Kiblah. Funny thing, a year after I did this Stele, I was looking through the Dover "Coloring Book of North American Indian Design," when on page 18 I saw an almost identical image to the Stele I had made. If you get rid of the two bears flanking this Zuni design, it is identical. I had never seen this book before, and was flabbergasted by the synchronicity. Check it out yourself sometime...the book is cheap and has some amazing Amerind designs. I find myself always drawn back again and again to seek the energies of Place, to commune with the energies that the original inhabitants of my hometown. If I eventually move a little up the coast to Oxnard or Port Hueneme, I will probably delve more closely into Chumash rather than Tongvan lore. But I suspect Chiniginish will follow me. During my 0 = 0 in the 93 G.'.D.'., I had the very strong sensation that it was Chiniginish doing the Initiating, and David Cherubim, despite his hierophantic duties, was only there as a warm body. In the Temple where I was initiated, the Eagle Rock was to almost the immediate North-east, and there was a strong energy beaming from that sacred spot. Have you ever seen the Eagle Rock? You would find it amazing. It looks almost exactly like the Egyptian conception of the head of Horus as Falcon. I am of the strong opinion that if one really wants to live the magickal lifestyle, it is very important to understand the ways of the original inhabitants of the place you live and connect with the Energies they were in contact with. I suspect that could be problematic if you live in Mexico City but I'm sure other ways of communing even with the Aztec deities could be found other than ripping people's hearts out. Why, the practice of Brujeria has identified the fierce Kali-like Earth Goddess Tonanzin Coatlicue with the mild, beatific vision of Guadelupe. Different times mean adaptation. The old ways of the Kelts that Wicca attempts to mimic entailed animal and the occasional human sacrifice, usually of criminals. That would not have been countenanced in Great Britain and Eire. Take care...93 --.\\<-H-- michelle.hass@ledge.com * SLMR 2.1a * Do What Thou Wilt -- not just a good idea, but The Law! 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Michelle Hass Area: Thelema To: Christeos Pir 22 Nov 94 11:21:12 Subject: More AC Bull. Rec'd UpdReq CP> I'm tempted to have some business cards CP> made up and start sticking them into these books, inscribed "If you CP> want the truth about these subjects, contact ... " Do it! Do it! CP> This jerk's idea of reporting is to repeat 1000 rumours and slanders, CP> followed by a statement to the effect that although none of this has CP> been proven, where there's smoke there must be fire, therefore, Crowley CP> and all his idiot followers really DO smoke fetuses and poke each other CP> in the ass. It's just logical fallacy in action. Pay it no mind. CP> Which reminds me, Dr. Aquino... did you really say, as he attributes to CP> you, upon the occasion of the decision in the OTO/SOTO court case: CP> "While sitting in the courtroom watching Judge Legge preside sternly CP> over the slug-out, I couldn't help wondering if he had any idea he was CP> ruling on which group had legal claim to anal sex as the supreme CP> religious sacrament in the United States." If Mike _did_ say that, I would have found it very funny. It's interesting...Mike seems to have found a sense of humor recently. Which is to me a very healthy improvement. 93, Chris... --.\\<-H-- michelle.hass@ledge.com * SLMR 2.1a * Cartoon violence made me what I am today... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Michelle Hass Area: Thelema To: To Meta Therion 22 Nov 94 11:34:14 Subject: God AC? Goddess Forbid! UpdReq TMT>I have to admit that I ascribe myself to the Thelemic form of magic TMT>and there is one reason and one reason only for this: it TMT>works for me better than any other form that I have tried. TMT>Perhaps I am not as fluent in magickal techniques as TMT>another older and more well-read than I, but I have had my TMT>share of spirit surfing. That's the only criteria for a person on the Quest: does this practice work for me? TMT>As far as Crowley's word as the word of truth, and the only word on TMT>should believe, I don't know when this misconception TMT>started. I don't know, but it's a really HURTFUL misconception, IMNSHO. TMT>logical. Does anyone else disagree, or do they judge all TMT>things by the writings of the Deadest Man in the World. Well, for one thing, I don't. I had my period of that kind of logical fallacy when I was a Newbie Thelemite, but I have matured a little since then. TMT>It's time for something new, and I beg each and everyone of you to begin TMT>experimenting if you haven't already. Try new formulas. TMT>Avoid the Tree of Life if necessary, but don't say "Crowley TMT>wrote it, I believe it." Fundamentalism sucks, whether it's Christian Fundamentalism, Islamic Fundamentalism, Jewish Chassid Fundamentalism or Fundamentalist Crowley-anity. TMT>Just don't reestablish another Christianity like the OTO TMT>seems to be doing. Question, doubt and disbelieve. All over Crowley's writings there are challenges to the intellect, and exhortions to maintain scientific agnosticism even in the midst of intense Bhakti work like Liber Astarte. Crowley would have hated the attempts at deification with a passion. In fact, some of the rumors he spread about himself and some of the more outrageous things he did were meant to discourage such a posthumous deification. But he also saw such an alarming possibility as being almost consequence of human nature and the need for the "Low Man" to have an object of worship. As he put in his poem "The Convert (a hundred years hence)" "While this sort of thing is styled success, I shall not count failure bitterness." 93, --.\\<-H-- michelle.hass@ledge.com * SLMR 2.1a * Cartoon violence made me what I am today... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Tony Iannotti Area: Thelema To: Christeos Pir 23 Nov 94 07:10:32 Subject: CD-ROMs Rec'd UpdReq CP> Hmm... First of all, one would have to want those particular versions, CP> and the accent might be a distraction. Second, unless you've worked CP> some _real_ magick and cleaned them up since my cassette dubs of the CP> old LP was made, they sound like hammered shit. Third, as you mention, CP> he only recorded the first two. One: You're right. More apppropriate for the Crowley display at the wax museum. Two: No, they are still pretty bad, though you can do a lot with an equalizer. Three: Big problem. CP> Anyway, wouldn't ANY line input be equal? IOW, wouldn't it still go CP> through the same DAC-ADC path as, say, a microphone? Or would it CP> actually go digital all the way? (Way beyond my level of education CP> here.) No, here I am pretty sure that some sound recording equipment can be digital all the way. Not my system, but..... (I don't even have a mike......) CP> Well, like I said, I haven't been able to get on the board for more CP> than about 1/2 sec. (I'll probably have $5 in calls, none of which have CP> gone through.) Yes, a few people are having a real lot of trouble getting through, while others are having no trouble at all. I can hear the radio station WOR on the line when I pl;ug a phone in, so it may be time to completely rewire. You might try the second line, which seems to be cleaner: 201/434-5026. CP> If you were to happen to file attatch that and Tau Apiryon's posts, CP> it'd be most gratefully received. Will get on it this afternoon. CP> Well, if you need a hand with anything else, let me know. Should take you up on that, but while I am in a buying mood, I am going to get a scanner, and only ask humans to do t he really bad carbons. TI> Whoops, hold that PO, Jeeves....... I think I'll delay on that TI> $1,995 Pinnacle drive for a month or two..... CP> CP> Keep in mind that this is no more than industry CP> rumour at this point. Dvorak Yeah, but I'm between jobs this week, so easy on the pocketbook it is. CP> is sometimes right on the money, sometimes full of it. A difference of CP> that much in price might make it worth waiting just in case he's right, CP> though. Remember the first Betamax? $1600, and that was _without_ the CP> tuner! Well, that's before my time. ;-) 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Fir Area: Thelema To: Tony Iannotti 21 Nov 94 07:37:28 Subject: CLARIFICATION UpdReq 93 AnTony, >F> XI degree. Then again I've heard that there have been >F> women of XI degree. > TI> Yes, there is a parallel rite to the Rite of Shiraz, called the Rite TI> of Mitylene, for it's obvious associations. Thanks for the clarification! > Check out early issues of the OTO Newsletter for notice of > it's founding. Not sure where I'd come by early issues of the OTO Newsletter? I'm not fishing for anything here but did you ever get the additional copies of Mezla issues I sent you a little while back? 93 93/93, Fir 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: Thelema To: Randolph Clayton 21 Nov 94 09:41:34 Subject: Re: SEKHMET UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Greets, RC! > I can identify with Sekhmet, because in my group, I am a Priest of Bast. What is your group, if you don't mind my asking? > I alot of times, identify with the Dark Goddesses, because as Ellen > Reed said in her book Invocations of the Gods, Bast is not a lovey-dovey > mother goddess.. she does not scold you and say "Do better next time", > she wacks you on the head and says "Fixit Dammit".. :) My daughter bought that book, and I swiped it from her...it's a neat book, I agree. ;> I also identify pretty easily with Dark Goddesses. Kali and BABALON, to be specific. ;> I identify with that type of 'Mother' image through my own experience as a parent as well...more like a mother tiger than a cookie-baking Mommy, to be sure. ;> > May you have the Power of the Pagan > and the Wisdom of the Witch! Love is the law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: Thelema To: To Meta Therion 21 Nov 94 10:41:08 Subject: Re: GREAT GOD AC? UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. > I recently read a post concerning Crowley idolatry. This caused me > to think, and I began to ponder the past messages that I have read > and received. When a man is dead, he is dead. If he leaves > writings behind, then those writings are ways to see into his > personality. Crowley was different in this respect because his > writings were the cause of a so-called new > aeon/religion/spirituality. These writings should be read by those > whom they concern, but there tends to be a lack of questioning as to > what Crowley was trying to do. I should clarify myself and say a > lack of personal questioning. The arguments posted all tend to be > circular, and end up with neither reader benefitting from the things > said. I tend not to believe in the more traditional forms of 'life after death,' including reincarnation and some sort of survival of the individual spirit; but I emphatically *do* believe that when one's life's work survives, and when there are people who remember left alive, that person's spirit does 'live on.' Crowley may be *more* alive now than he was while inhabiting his body. Any kind of inspired writing is much, much more than a way to see into the author's personality. It's as true of AC as it is of Shakespeare or William Blake or Patanjali. I haven't personally seen the lack of willingness to question, or argue, or disagree with AC among Thelemites, which I see *referred to* so often. Could you give specific examples of the circular arguments you mention above? I've seen a lot of 'agreeing to disagree,' and some instances where one of the arguing parties may even change his/her position, but not a lot of what you seem to mean. I see a lot more *discussion* than argument in the Thelema echo compared to any other message base or newsgroup; and have personally derived great benefits from those discussions a number of times. > As far as Crowley's word as the word of truth, and the only > word one should believe, I don't know when this misconception > started. The writings he produced and others produced concerning > his material were never meant to structure the lives of those that > read them as the Bible does for Christians. I have read _The Law is > for All_ and a few of crowley's other comments, and I find that I > disagree with most of his ideas because his mode of thinking was > _too_ logical. Does anyone else disagree, or do they judge all > things by the writings of the Deadest Man in the World. I don't know when this misconception started either; in fact I don't see it. Most of us, IMHO, become involved with Thelema because we agree with the basic philosophy inherent therein. This does *not* equate to agreeing with Crowley or accepting everything he had to say about any given subject. The Comments in _The Law Is For All_ are not in Class A, and as you'll note from reading it, he himself changed his interpretation on several matters from the 'Old Comment' to the 'New Comment.' He also stated explicitly toward the end of his life that much of _Liber AL_ was still somewhat unclear to *him*. The Class A Comment on _AL_ states emphatically: "All questions of the Law are to be decided only by appeal to my writings, each for himself. There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt." *Each for himself.* That doesn't seem to imply One True Wayism to me, at ALL. > Just don't reestablish another Christianity like the OTO seems to be > doing. Question, doubt and disbelieve. What leads you to the conclusion that the O.T.O. seems to be doing this? Doesn't seem that way to me...or I would not be an initiate. Question, doubt and disbelieve...I agree. So did Crowley. Love is the law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Fir Area: Thelema To: Rose Dawn 22 Nov 94 07:27:00 Subject: LIBER AL UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Morning Rose. > say about any given subject. The Comments in _The Law Is For All_ > are not in Class A, and as you'll note from reading it, he himself > changed his interpretation on several matters from the 'Old Comment' > to the 'New Comment.' He also stated explicitly toward the end of > his life that much of _Liber AL_ was still somewhat unclear to > *him*. The Class A Comment on _AL_ states emphatically: "All > questions of the Law are to be decided only by appeal to my > writings, each for himself. There is no law beyond Do what thou > wilt." *Each for himself.* That doesn't seem to imply One True > Wayism to me, at ALL. Someone told me that one should not consider O.T.O. initiations unless that person is willing to embrace everything that is in the Book of the Law, to accept it as truth, or something like that. What do you think about this? Is this thought commonly held, do you know? Love is the law, love under will. Fir 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Serpens Area: Thelema To: Fir 22 Nov 94 09:31:22 Subject: Re: LIBER AL UpdReq Fir - 93. While embracing any one interpretation of Liber AL is not essential to pursuing an OTO career, it seems pretty pointless to pursue initiation without a commitment to the principles of Liber AL. The only requirement into the Io, as stated on the application form (and hence public domain (g)) is that one accepts Liber AL without wishing to change it. I take "wishing" to mean "intending" as there are certainly times I *wish* things had been stated differently, but since I have no intention of putting that sometime wistful notion into practice and correcting AL ("just a little") I think I am within the meaning of the act. And the Short Comment seems an excellent safeguard against imposing universal interpretations on the Book. Within OTO, there are certain passages interpreted/implemented in specific ways for specific purposes - the calendar of feasts, for example. I have my own thoughts on, f'rinstance, the First Night of the Prophet and his Bride, that don't fit with a celebration in honor of Al's first wedding night (Aug. 12), but commemorating the principles by which each man and woman can embody Babalon and the Beast, which event IS a cause for joy, sure, I can dig using Aug 12 for that purpose. Paul 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 22 Nov 94 09:33:00 Subject: Re: THE ABYSS 1/ UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Greets Josh! > Hi Rose! Almost missed this one -- it didn't show up on the Cincy BBS. > Lots of very perceptive stuff, most of which needs no direct comment, > save to say I agree. Heh...I have my moments. Unfortunately, I don't think this is one of em! ;> > This is more or less what I was saying in the "four stages" post -- the > "official" abyss experience is just an apotheosis of the "death" stage, > which happens in every initiation to a greater or lesser degree. Understood, and I thought the 'four stages' post was incredible. I think I was sensing something more, or maybe just something different though--I guess there's no such thing as a 'mini apotheosis.' ;> I think it was the idea of a 'choice' or a fork in the road, at every step along the way, rather than breaking up/integrating, then coming up on a big chasm, which is kinda my idea of the 'official abyss experience.' Still sounds pretty much like your 'stage 2,' maybe just that I 'feel' it as a bit more active, or requiring action from each individual. > (musing...) > You're right, in some sense the abyss is always with us. Or maybe there > is more than one kind of "abyss": There is the gap between the divine > and the human, between the Self and the Selfless, which is only seems to > exist because of the limitations of our perceptions. This is the one > Crowley, et.al. are talking about when discussing "crossing the Abyss". And this is the one I, and probably most people, think of when thinking about the Abyss. More than one kind sounds right on to me. > But then there is the abyss between what we are capable of knowing of > the universe and everything that is actually going on there; this one > isn't "crossable" -- all you can do is push back the edge a bit. > Sometimes the unknowable intrudes unasked on our nicely-ordered world, > throwing things into chaos. > And then there is the "abyss below", the sea of preconscious processes > out of which our awareness arose in the first place. The seeming > solidity of our individual selves is really only a thin layer of ice > covering this sea. When the ice cracks we see for a while into those > terrifying depths; or if the pressure is too great, the ice breaks up > entirely and dissolves back into the water... Fortunately for us, the > ice usually re-forms itself without any intervention. I've had a vague sense of the second type of abyss; I think the last one's the one that's been doggin me lately. This might be what I'm grasping for with the mini-abysses...I'm not so sure that the ice reforms without active intervention on the part of the individual...at least not to the extent that it can be counted on to do so. > Damn, I'm waxing poetic again. And you do it so well! ;> > I really wonder how much choice is involved in most instances, however. > Methinks that by the time the disruption becomes noticeable, it's > probably too late; one can "choose" to ride it out, or one can resist, > and have it happen to you anyway. I agree that 'resistance is futile' ;> as far as the disruption itself goes. It's the integration part...or maybe the part between 'death' and the 'solar stage'...that needs work; the choice could be between 'soaring' or *plunging*, and I think it's just as important--maybe even more so--to reach for this at the beginning of one's initiation, as at its apex where the 'gap' between human and divine is closed, or crossed, or recognized as non-existent. Strictly by the bye, it doesn't seem much easier whether one is resisting or riding it out, while it's going on--for me NEwayz. > Beautifully said. ::blush:: Thank you. Encouragement is nice when one is feeling particularly stupid! ;> > I enjoyed it immensely. A pleasure, as always. Love is the law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 22 Nov 94 09:41:24 Subject: Re: THE ABYSS 2/ UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. ReHi! > I've encountered that despair many times along the way. A couple of > times I got to the point of putting the gun in my mouth and clicking off > the safety... but that last little pull of the finger always seemed like > a copout. The thought always came to me how annoyed I would be with > myself, assuming some spirit-part survived the experience. Well, I've never gotten *quite* that far . I'm sure it sounds silly, but I always remember _grihastha dharma_ somewhere in there--my duties as a parent, head of household, working lady, etc. It'd be downright immoral for me to try to ditch those duties! > Later I realized that the pain can be as exalting in its own way as the > more pleasurable kinds. That made it somewhat easier to keep going, > though even now I still don't appreciate that exaltation till after it's > over. No pain, no AIN? Hehehe. Love is the law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: Thelema To: Fir 22 Nov 94 10:03:58 Subject: Re: LIBER AL UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. > Morning Rose. Howdy Fir! > Someone told me that one should not consider O.T.O. initiations > unless that person is willing to embrace everything that is in > the Book of the Law, to accept it as truth, or something like that. 'Accept' it as not attempting to re-write it, or change it around, yes. 'Accept' it as literal truth, in the way that a fundie would? No way! The philosophy of Thelema is pretty much epitomized by the Book of the Law, so I would tend to doubt that someone who thought it was a bunch of crap would be attracted to Thelema or be seeking O.T.O. initiations at all NEwayz. I personally think the Class A Short Comment is perfectly designed to *prevent* the 'embrace everything' idea...*each to himself*. No, I don't want to re-write the Book of the Law; but I most definnitely am free to, and do, interpret the messages therein in a way that's personally meaningful and valuable. > What do you think about this? Is this thought commonly held, > do you know? My personal feelings are as above...and from my personal experience, it's not at all common for other O.T.O. members to view _Liber AL_ the way a fundie Christian would view the Bible. Prob closer to the way a gnostic Christian would view 'Revealed Scripture.' Love is the law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Michael Aquino Area: Thelema To: Tim Maroney 20 Nov 94 13:19:16 Subject: Re: Synthesis UpdReq TM> Michael Aquino was kind enough to send me a rather long document from the TM> Crystal Tablet, and I am pleased to report that his interest in TM> philosophy is not the "smoke and mirrors" which you have represented it TM> to be. In fact, I have not seen any other occult or pagan attempt to TM> systematize philosophy that TM> is as well-informed, seriously intended, or near success as this one. TM> If the Temple were to make such documents more widely available, I think TM> it could only help their reputation. TM> (This is not to say the document is without flaws; there are certainly TM> portions where hand-waving is evident, together with some apparent TM> contradictions and assertions which greatly outstrip the evidence; but TM> compared to the bilious spewings that stand in for philosophy in most of TM> the occult and pagan worlds, it is excellent.) Thanks. Glad you enjoyed it. FYI I know that it has some rough edges, and mean to keep wrestling with them towards, if not necessarily attaining "perfect wisdom" :). In fact the Temple of Set keeps almost all of its publications in "working document", loose-leaf format, because they are all being revised, updated, and re-thought incrementally. Parkinson's Law or some variation thereof; when you see a fancy-bound "final" _Crystal Tablet_, you can consider the Temple to have started to stagnate! Right now we're still in the Indiana Jones "figuring this out as we go" stage - and very pleasant it is too. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Michael Aquino Area: Thelema To: Christeos Pir 21 Nov 94 08:12:16 Subject: Re: More AC Bull. Rec'd UpdReq CP> Which reminds me, Dr. Aquino... did you really say, as he attributes to CP> you, upon the occasion of the decision in the OTO/SOTO court case: CP> "While sitting in the courtroom watching Judge Legge preside sternly CP> over the slug-out, I couldn't help wondering if he had any idea he was CP> ruling on which group had legal claim to anal sex as the supreme CP> religious sacrament in the United States." Yes, I did, in a somewhat whimsical - but not unkind - account of the affair that I wrote for the Temple of Set's newsletter. I was of course referring to the O.T.O.'s highest degree of XI* - the right to authorize which was being considered _de facto_ by Judge Legge without his being explicitly aware of it at the time. [In court, the arguments offered by attorneys for the O.T.O. and Motta made the O.T.O. sound delightfully "ordinary"!] 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Bruce Kroeze Area: Thelema To: Tim Maroney 23 Nov 94 20:15:04 Subject: Thelemic Insanity I agree with the main point of the earlier posts in this thread. It is silly for OTO, TOT, whatever groups to put down other groups that are legitimately trying to advance the 93 current. In that respect, I fully support the T.O.G.D. However, I also have to agree with Mr. Maroney about David Cherubim. He just puts my objections so well. TM> David Cherubim has made an extremely bad impression on me. His writing > style is that of a bargain-basement Crowley imitator, drained of the poetry > and insight and with extra heaping scoops of pretension and pomposity. If he > could grow beyond his desire to be the next Crowley and his addiction to > styles of which he has no literary grasp, then I might take another look at > his work, but for now it seems laughable (in a queasy sort of way). I have no problem with the Thelemic G.D. as a group, but I have to agree with Tim as to its founder. I've read a couple of his flying rolls that seemed to be pure drivel. Even worse for Cherubim, I have a problem with people who are apologists for the Book of the Law. "Oh, you are just not interpreting the third chapter right. Its not really violent. Let me explain what that part about pecking out Jesus' eyes means..." The worst kind of center of pestilence. -- SPEED 1.4g #1295: A squished bug is not the Star. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Bruce Kroeze Area: Thelema To: Joseph Max 23 Nov 94 20:46:06 Subject: Chaos Magick Practices JM> And even Pope Pete devoted an entire chapter in _Psychonaut_ to initiation - > titled, strangely enough, "Initiation". His thoughts on the subject closely > parallel my own: JM> "Initiation can never be performed according to some set formula. No two > people will have the same requirements, abilites, or shortcomings... > Existence itself can be seen as a continuous initiation punctuated by > periodic death and rebirth, which itself has the greatest initiatory > potential. Beyond a certain level, the magician must seek his own > initiatory experiences deliberately, or may feel that something inside > of himself is pushing him into these experiences. There is no fixed > route which one can traverse and become an adept or master by rote. > There are too many variables in existence to make a simple equation > possible." cop out. -- SPEED 1.4g #1295: Cerebus can destroy ANYTHING. Cerebus is the POPE. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Bruce Kroeze Area: Thelema To: Michelle Hass 23 Nov 94 21:03:10 Subject: chaos magick practice MH> I think that Israel Regardie exhibited a great deal of wisdom about this > in insisting that potential magickal students of his would go through at > least a year of psychotherapy as a prerequisite. > [...] > I'd rather put magick down for awhile and clean up my psychological > garbage than risk being really high...and totally nutso. I just can't make myself disentangle magick from my life for a _year_ to participate in a different sort of magickal practice (psychotherapy) the effectiveness of which seems to be miniscule. Even worse, from my perspective is that hearkens back to the bad-old-days of guruism. "I can't get better without someone to help me." Lastly, too darn expensive. I would heartily appreciate thoughts from others on this. -- SPEED 1.4g #1295: "If there is a universal mind, must it be sane?" -Fort 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718