From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: Michelle Hass 14 Nov 94 11:18:02 Subject: Baloney about Unca' Al UpdReq -=> Michelle Hass sent a message to Christeos Pir on 12 Nov 94 12:24:02 <=- -=> Re: a place to start 1/ <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. MH> Hmm...Christeos Pir...what name were you using when I was active on MH> the Net? Nice to hear from an oldtimer. Probably still using my other "craft name" which I generally reserve for Order stuff these days, _Vitriol_. MH> I've been silent because of technical probs. The sickness I was MH> suffering in 1991 ev was my first bout with Chronic Fatigue and Immune MH> Dysfunction Syndrome, or CFIDS. I must have scared a lot of people MH> with my suspicions of worse things! I was diagnosed in April 1992 ev. Must've been about the time you dropped from sight, no? I'm sorry to hear of your troubles. MH> I am currently mostly writing on mundane matters...I am continuing my MH> work as a freelance journalist, and I am attempting to get a zine of MH> my own going about cutting-edge animation. There will be a sample issue MH> ready of this zine, called FRAME ZERO, probably around the end of MH> January. Best of luck! I'm not a animation-type, I'm afraid. I do still have some of your earlier writing, including an intro to mystery religions and that poem to Alastor. MH> However, I *did* recently do an interpretive paraphrase of the Dao Deh MH> Jing called "Of The Dao, Empowerment and The Force of Life" which you MH> can check out excerpts of if you get the echo Tao_Study. I may or may MH> not publish it wider...I am still ambivalent about its correctness as MH> a rendering of the Ancient Child's words. However, I feel it is a MH> better rendering of the Dao Deh Jing from a Thelemic perspective than MH> Crowley's Liber 157, which often times misses the spirit of Lao Tzu's MH> words and awkwardly tries to stuff them into Crowley's own mindset. MH> The Dao Deh Jing is Thelemic enough of a document without having to MH> force it into a shape it does not have. I agree, AC's version is somewhat procrustean, though I enjoy it as an interesting -if aberrant- variation. My personal fave would have to be the old coffee-table edition by Feng Gia-Fu and Jane English. I don't get that echo, but I'd love to read your piece ... hint hint ... MH> Good god, man...you _have_ been digging in obscure corners! What used MH> bookstore did you find _that_ in? ;-) Nah... just digging through the public library. It bothers me that stuff like that, and Raschke's _Painted Black_, are on the shelf, but not one mention of Uncle Al in the catalog. In some areas they don't do too badly: the material on Gnosticism, for example, is pretty good. And I was impressed to actually see tarot _cards_ on the shelf. But generally, you can write off all of section 133. Maybe if and when Wm. Blake Camp gets on its financial feet, we'll start a book-donation program! CP>and formed a homosexual partnership with Allan Bennett, known as Iohi CP>Aour, another of its members. MH> They had a close working relationship and Bennett was very much one of MH> Crowley's teachers...but I doubt seriously they were butt-buddies. I wasn't going to do the point-by-point myself, but you missed that Bennett's name was "Iehi," not "Iohi." I think my favorite was the part about the medium in a trance in Cairo teaching the ultimate mysteries of sexual magic to Al & Rose, and urging them to set up the "order of the Silver Star"! The same book claims that Christopher Cattan invented magic squares, that Dee and Kelley's wife-swapping episode was the result of the two men seeing the images of themselves and their wives appearing "spontaneously in a mirror" together, and that Paracelsus was "the Christ of Medicine." Ah well, I only borrowed it to scan the illustrations to disk! Love is the law, love under will. - Christeos Pir Fr. Vitriol Io, O.T.O. ... The Fire is not defiled by the altars of the Ghebers, 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Frater H.A.C.A. Area: Thelema To: Michelle Hass 16 Nov 94 13:33:48 Subject: Thelemic Insanity UpdReq Greetings in Thelema: Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. MH> Just chalk it up to stupidity. Pure mammailian stupidity. MH> As for myself, I have found that being a Solitary is more to my liking MH> than involvement in a formal magickal order. But MH> that doesn't mean that MH> my approach is any better than your approach necessarily, or for that MH> matter anyone elses. There should be as many MH> flavors of Thelema as there MH> are Thelemites. And if you like one flavor over another, that's yo' MH> biz-nis, not mine. Thank you!!!!! Love is the law, love under will. Peace, Frater H.A.C.A. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: To Meta Therion Area: Thelema To: Walter Five 15 Nov 94 12:18:28 Subject: Initiation UpdReq WF> Well, I bought it :-( Waited for its publication for years, and Boy! Was WF> I Disappointed! At $35 plus P&H it's criminal! Very confused, very WF> wandering, an Ode to babble on, NOT Babalon! You'd do better to Xerox WF> somebody else's copy, or something. It really sucked. His Aleister WF> Crowley and the Hidden God, on the other hand, is an excellent book, and WF> it's now in reprint for the same price...BUY IT, if you don't have it! WF> The *correct* title, BTW, is _Hecate's_Fountain_, and it's full of poorly WF> conceived Gematria, and badly disconnected circumstantial coincedence. At WF> times, it comes across like a Stream of Conciousness meander under the WF> influence of Wormwood Absinthe. Many of the dates are all wrong, he WF> claims things were done by the Isis Urania Temple after that Temple was WF> (by his own admission) closed. Other things he talks about are so wildly WF> improbable and unsubstantiated that no serious Student of Magick or WF> Thelema can take it any more seriously than the Hallucinogenic Ramblings WF> of another victim of Choronzon. Well, all I can say to this is: Everyone (used for emphasis) seems to accept that Crowley channeled a really important book. Everyone seems to accept that Crowley established a new aeon. Tell me, are Grant's claims any more radical than that? By the way, Grant is the KING of silly Gematria and coincidence. Everything from simple word play to elaborate mathematical concepts are thrown into his book. If you don't agree with it, try reading Hecate's Fountain again and laughing at everything he claims. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kevin Bold Area: Thelema To: Michelle Hass 2 Nov 94 22:01:14 Subject: a place to start UpdReq 93! MH> In my imperfect understanding, no person who is currently embodied MH> can rise beyond the level 9 = 2, that is, the grade of Magus. Be _very_ skeptical about anyone who claims to have even crossed the Abyss, let alone attained Ipsissimus, especially if they cannot handle the basic stresses of mundane life. MH> And to speak to another post, this from one who considers this to MH> be a "Restriction" and therefore a sin under the Law of Thelema... See "Saint" Paul's epistle to the Romans. MH> I ask this: is gravity a restriction? It's a law, it restricts MH> our ability to just jump up and fly, or hop around as if we were MH> on the Moon, and yet it is a reality. There are certain laws of MH> nature. Perhaps this is one of them. Nature's "laws" are no one's decrees; they are statistical observations. L8r, 93--93/93... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kevin Bold Area: Thelema To: StarChild 3 Nov 94 06:05:56 Subject: Questions? UpdReq 93! S> ...Masonry definitely has several Middle-Eastern roots. You better believe it, especially Sufism by way of the Knights Templar. And if anyone doubts this, they need only read _The Sufis_ by Idries Shah, _The Temple and The Lodge_ by Michael Baigent and Richard Leigh, and _Born in Blood: The Lost Secrets of Freemasonry_ and _Dungeon, Fire, and Sword_, both by John Robinson. 93--93/93... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Zepher Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 4 Nov 94 04:27:34 Subject: Re: Synthesis and exposition UpdReq Hello Josh, B>> Grin, Josh, your impatience is showing. You're asking someone B>> who has spent a very large portion of his life exploring these B>> questions, discussing them, refining them, and who has B>> published the results of his explorations in some very B>> marvelous documents within the Temple B>> ^^^^^^ B>> of Set, to explain it all to you in the network equivalent of B>> sound bites. JN> Note the accented word above. This has been my problem with JN> the Temple of Set all along. First, that its members are so JN> often insufferably smug about their supposed personal and JN> moral/philosophical/spiritual superiority, Your personal observation of finding Setians to be "insufferably smug" seems to be quite an issue for you. Perhaps this "smugness" is no more than a healthy ego and confidence in oneself. JN> and second, that they are not willing to expose the details of JN> their philosophy and practice to discussion in the "common JN> market" of public discussion, where the ideas would live or JN> die on their own merit. Anyone who applies to the Temple of Set demonstrating sound rationality for wanting to affiliate with it may be accepted and have an opportunity to engage in an evaluation period that will give both the Temple and the Initiate time to examine each other in more "detail". To discuss topics that involve highly personal and subjective ideas and findings in the "common market" will bring a slew of questions, and with them misunderstandings. Going over such things can be awfully time consuming and most often lead to "dead ends" seeing that many terms and understandings that Setians maintain are not easily explained and understood. JN> If either of these things were not the case, I wouldn't keep JN> needling you at intervals. You could shut up and keep both JN> your philosophy and your opinion of yourselves to yourselves, JN> and quite rightly say that the details of the system are JN> private. There are at times dialogues that are better off not reveled in a public form. Not that they include illegal acts, but instead they are to be kept private - else they will not hold the same initial impact for ones Work. Some may however be revealed and gifted to those with whom you have developed a unique trust (which can, and often does occur between Temple Initiates). Also, at this time I am of the opinion that those who do not contribute or are not sympathetic to the TS have no right to view or withdraw from its stores of treasures. JN> Or, you could continue bragging and reveal those details, so JN> that others would have some foundation for determining whether JN> your opinion is justified or is simply a lot of hot air. Perhaps you're mistaken a confidence and straightforwardness in explaining individual initiatory experiences with that of a braggart. It is in my opinion a prerequisite that a black magician have and maintain a level of self-importance amd self-confidence that is widely considered by most if not all practitioners of the RHP to be over bearing. I would think it improbable for anyone to Work his or her true Will if that person is not ready and capable of "boastfully" resonating a declaration of his or her Will throughout the etheric and/or the ethereal plane. Some attempt to gain this confidence by pleading for the help of their god/s. Others do it by soliciting the aid of what they may consider demons while taking precautions in an effort to protect themselves from the wrath of these "evil blood thirsty fiends". In my opinion such things are unnecessary and somewhat demonstriates the difference between the RHP and LHP. It seems that few are truly capable of successfully implementing their Will by their own hand while realizing what they're doing. Such magicians are often resented and disapproved because of their ability to do this, which may be viewed and considered as nothing more then self-delusion by those who are not confident to do it themselves. This confidence can manifest in the mundane and utilized in every day life. Is it hot air? No. But this is my own personal experience and observation. Others may wish to at least *consider* and then perhaps *experience* it for themselves rather than jumping to conclusions. You can sit around and watch others riding a bicycle. It can be explained to you all day and night but until you experience it you really won't know or be able to ride for yourself. JN> But Michael chooses not to follow either of these courses. He JN> gives us "hints" by referring to other philosophies he says JN> are "similar" to his. But similarity is not identity, JN> especially when he's converting from academic philosophy into JN> an initiatory system. E.g., I could say with equal validity JN> that my own views are "similar" to the neoplatonists, but JN> reading neoplatonist writings will tell you almost nothing JN> about my own work. At no time in all the talk has he given us JN> any real idea of what _he_ has done with these things. We JN> really have no basis for deciding whether he HAS done JN> anything, or is just spouting other people's words. Would you share with us what you have done with your work? JN> It seems to me that people ought to demand that any JN> self-proclaimed (is there any other kind?) Magister, Magus, or JN> Ipsissimus at least demonstrate that he is capable of original JN> work in both the theoretical _and_ the practical side of JN> magick. I agree, everyone should be questioned, but what would you consider as a valid demonstration of ones original work (theoretical & practical)? JN> If Michael isn't willing to do so, then neither should he be JN> waving those grades in people's faces. But since he does wave JN> them -- and on talks shows, no less! -- neither he nor you JN> should be upset if the occasional impolite soul treats him JN> with something less than the awe and respect you think he JN> deserves. The degree system distinguishes the perceived State of Being of the Initiate within the Temple, not according to his or her own personal or subjective achievements or abilities but those as seen from outside observers within the Temple itself. They are not intended to be used or viewed as "proof" of ones "State of Being" or ones "magical abilities". They are symbols representing ones conferred State of Being by those Initiates who are considered apt in doing so. They are not intended to be goals or to be used to wave in anyone's face, Setian or non-Setian. In all my correspondences with Michael Aquino as well as his wife Lilith (with whom I've met a few times) I have never seen or felt as though they ever waved their grades in my face. Nor have I ever perceived them to do it to anyone else. They, as well as most all other Setians I correspond with are no less than caring and insightful black magicians. I maintain no awe for them or anyone else, but there is however a mutual understanding and respect for them as well as others Setians, even those with whom I strongly disagree. If I would find any Initiates in the TS "waving" their degree in the face of others I would surly question them. It would suggest to me that they are unsure of themselves or perhaps hold a view of the degree system that I am not familiar with. B>> Any attempt to do so, within the size constraints of a network B>> message, in language you would understand (devoid of the Setian B>> symbolism / jargon / shorthand we've developed to condense B>> meanings into shorter statements), would be useless; the B>> response would be so general as to be misleading and B>> unsatisfactory. JN> I've given you the solution to this many times already. Just JN> publish one of those already-existent books (now available JN> only to Setians) in which he explains it all. The public can JN> then use that as a basis for discussion. As I mentioned before, I am of the opinion that those who do not contribute or are not sympathetic to the TS have no right to view or withdraw from its stores of treasures. B>> You therefore have a choice. You can complain about not getting B>> your sound bites, or you can take the time to explore the B>> meaning of the very clear expositions you've already rejected. B>> One path gives you the puffed-up feeling (you've "shown up" the B>> Magus of the Aeon); the other leads to Initiation. JN> (loud guffaws) For the other folks reading this, the fellow JN> saying this is the same one who once accused me of advocating JN> using human babies as a food source, and other vile practices. JN> I guess I should be thankful that he's only doing his Chevy JN> Chase impersonation today -- "I'm an Initiate, and you're JN> not!" JN> Apparently what's "clear" to you isn't clear to anybody else; JN> I've received five netmail messages so far concurring with the JN> opinion that Michael's replies were deliberate dodges and JN> obfuscations of the issue. Given that I rarely receive any JN> mail at all about echo discussions, this counts as a virtual JN> avalanche of support. One wonders how many other people felt JN> the same but weren't inclined to say so. It's quite apparent that many do not agree with some, or even all of the philosophies the Temple of Set currently maintains. This is understandable and accepted by the TS. Setians don't agree upon everything as well. This is however not to imply that there is something "wrong", but to the contrary. The Temple is a medium and a tool for the study and sharing of information between black magicians who wish to hold constructive dialogue with others who have various views. Don't disavow what is shared with you merely because you have little patience for what is not easily found or understood. The fact remains that the "clear details" explored and uncovered by Initiates in the TS may never be "seen" or understood by those not inclined to pursue them further. H. J. Mowry, Jr. * Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 14 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Zepher Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 10 Nov 94 01:16:06 Subject: Re: book of coming forth 1/ UpdReq On 3 Nov 94 01:49pm, Josh Norton wrote to Zepher: Hello Josh, Z>> It seems that you want lucid information in regards to a study Z>> that is in no uncertain terms ambiguous. I find it unlikely Z>> that Michael Aquino or anyone else will be able to give a Z>> synopsis that will do justice to the magnitude of what is Z>> realized through years of Initiation. JN> This is Balanone's "sound bites" argument. The answer is that JN> Michael has already written a couple of books that he says JN> explain his view of the magickal universe. In past JN> discussions, he's referred to them without quoting them -- JN> saying, in essence "I've have an explanation, but I'm not JN> going to tell you." You have to join the Temple of Set to JN> get access to them. If you don't want to join, you're still JN> expected to believe that they have some marvelous secret. To JN> me, this smacks of smoke and mirrors, not initiation. The underlining obstacle in this thread may be unbridgeable. It involves the perception of the universe. It's evident that there exists a few obstacles here. I think linguistic forms would help to cover certain "givens". Within the ToS there exist such terms, as Balanone mentioned. IMO in order to constructively use these terms a recognition and endorsement of certain concepts are very helpful if not essential to further explore various topics. Without benefit of this added component constructive dialogue may not be obtainable. As Michael pointed out, you are not expected to believe in anything. Ahhh.. Secret? Ahhhhhhh..... No. Smoke & mirrors... Ahhhhhhh..... No again. Yes, there are little known and/or understood concepts and conditions. They may consist of obscure and clandestine thought. It may also often include what practitioners of the RHP would consider as nefarious thought and action. Yes, this would be known by definition as a secret - but only in the eyes of the non-initiate or those not privileged to it. In our Initiatory "struggles" we discover things. More and more things/details are gathered which will include the "little known and/or understood concepts and conditions". This is the extent of any "smoke & mirrors" within the ToS. I don't think you will find any "answers" in the writings provided by ToS Initiates. In my understanding the concepts explored and expounded are not meant to be any one means to an "end", or more appropriately a beginning. There are perceptions that Initiates find to be at best profoundly inspiring and vital toward individual Initiation as well as the conception and evolution of the Aeon. At worst they are thought provoking. JN> I think that people get too hung up on the Ineffability Of It JN> All. What do you mean by "Ineffability" - inaffability (not being easy to speak to)? JN> As a Magister Templi, Would your mentioning this constitute "waving" a "supposed" grade? JN> I know perfectly well that anything I say about the JN> transcendental realms -- indeed, about any level of initiation JN> -- is going to be incomplete, and therefor a lie. And is going JN> to be misinterpreted by those not yet at that level. Despite JN> this, simply keeping silence or saying "it's beyond your JN> grade" or (like Michael) "it's a secret" is, to me, a cop-out, JN> an abandonment of our obligations in the Great Work. If you consider your own musings or remarks in regards to your own experiences as lies what then would you consider that of others? JN> In Western systems, the information available about various JN> initiations -- especially in the higher levels -- is the work JN> of a very few people, and is often reaching us at several JN> removes from its originator. This means that the descriptions JN> don't point to the essence of the experience. To gain first-hand knowledge and understanding on the essence of the experience of Initiation I would think you would have to partake in the event itself. This leads me to the following thought. If everything is revealed to the public in regards to the attainment, perception, and any other characteristic that defines a particular State of Being what then would be used as a barometer to evaluate and authenticate a State of Being? Everyone would have a "cheat sheet" and in fact "pass the test". If so, the title of Magister Templi (or any other) would hold no validity. Master-O-Matic For only $19.95 Be a Magister Templi! Call 1-800-555-1212 You will receive the answers to all the questions that verifies this State of Being. Another find product from Mr. Magicko, makers of * Devil Bane * Keep those annoying imps out of your magic circle! JN> Instead they point to its "least common denominators" -- those JN> aspects that are dramatic enough to be noticeable even after JN> the description is filtered through several peoples' minds. JN> These dramatic moments often turn out to be utterly trivial, or JN> completely deceptive, when it comes to understanding the real JN> significance of a particular grade's perceptions. I am somewhat curious, but to concern myself with the Initiation of higher perceived levels beyond a passing curiosity seems pointless. There will be time enough if and when this state is in fact perceived. There are too many other topics of concern to explore. I am of the opinion that if and when those grades are obtained that is when an understanding of that grade ensues. [continued on the next message] * Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 20 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Zepher Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 10 Nov 94 01:40:50 Subject: Re: book of coming forth 2/ UpdReq On 3 Nov 94 01:49pm, Josh Norton wrote to Zepher: [ ...Continued From Previous Message ] Hello again, JN> This being the case, I feel that those who have experience JN> have an obligation to give the best descriptions they can JN> manage of the levels they have attained, and to dispel the JN> misperceptions that have accumulated around past descriptions. Why do you so strongly feel that this is an obligation for you and insist that it's for others as well? JN> Now, in the case of Michael Aquino and the Temple of Set it is JN> even more important that they attempt to provide clear, JN> unambiguous descriptions of their initiations. This is because JN> they specifically deny the validity and necessity of certain JN> events that appear in practically every other major initiation JN> system in the world, east and west. (Most notably, they deny JN> the loss of identification with the individualized self that JN> precedes the grade of Master of the Temple.) How can you gain mastery over the Universe when you previously relinquished your intellect and merged your consciousness with it? You in effect detract into an undistinguishable ingredient intermixed in a quagmire of non-consciousness. The very pith of what made you distinct from everything else is dissolved. JN> In respect to these things, they are effectively saying that JN> every past and present initiatory system _except_ theirs is JN> wrong, and based on delusions. Given the import of this JN> discovery, if true, and the weight of evidence against them, JN> I don't see it as at all unreasonable to demand that they JN> justify this in detail, both from a theoretical view _and_ JN> from the view of documented practical experimentation. If in the process of attainment of Master of the Temple one loses intellect & consciousness to the Universe and then claims a State of Being which now declares mastery over the Universe a contradiction of that State of Being exists. If I wish to honor my total Being, to maintain, nourish, strengthen, and cultivate it how would forfeiting my intellect, my soul, my very essence aid in this endeavor? Forfeiting such things contradicts my very Will to evolve as a distinct Being. JN> It may be that they actually have something going for them. JN> But how can anybody know? And why should we bother to believe JN> them, or their claims of superiority, without such evidence? JN> In the absence of such information, we are equally justified JN> in believing that they have concocted some self-serving belief JN> system no better than any other common religion. Or -- my own JN> opinion -- that they have simply reached the limits of the JN> individualized mind, and have chosen to turn their backs on JN> what lies beyond that stage. Here you imply that a "merging of the minds" must take place for further initiation. Indeed, my back is to you. Nevertheless I appreciate your thoughts. H. J. Mowry, Jr. * Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 20 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kevin Bold Area: Thelema To: Joseph Max 13 Nov 94 07:49:32 Subject: Re: THELEMIC MEANINGS UpdReq 93! JM> Hey, he asked me "if it was okay with me". Well, yes, it is okay with me. JM> I never claimed to be the original author or "copyright holder". In case JM> you missed it, I even said so when posting it, and elaborated later by JM> saying "I got this off UUCP's alt.magick echo, and added 2 items of my JM> own." I had no idea where the original list came from, as it was not JM> credited. Often those kind of things have no other source than the net, JM> having been original postings. And quite often they are "added to" as JM> they go along, the way I did. Since it had no other attribution, I JM> assumed that was the case here. I apologise for any misunderstanding on JM> the part of those who missed my disclaimer. If I'd noticed a disclaimer, I wouldn't have asked for your permission to publish it (OTOH, I don't recall reading it in anything where Soror Timshel, who I've known since 1987, submitted it for publication). Keep in mind that when I asked you if you'd mind my publishing it, you refrained from pointing out that you were not the original author. At any rate, I'm going to have to apologize to Soror Timshel, both privately and in an "Errata" section in the next issue. 93--93/93... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kevin Bold Area: Thelema To: Kayla Block 13 Nov 94 08:01:22 Subject: Re: THELEMIC MEANINGS UpdReq 93! Please see my post to Joseph Max on this. In the meantime, I'm going to see if I still have his original posting and see if he did indeed disclaim original authorship. 93--93/93... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Michelle Hass Area: Thelema To: To Meta Therion 15 Nov 94 08:18:54 Subject: Past Life? UpdReq TMT> So, what kind of meditation were you practicing TMT> when you had your large vision? Have you worked TMT> with AC's prescribed methods for achieving the TMT> magickal memory? TMT> --- Maximus 2.02 TMT> * Origin: Access! Information Services --> PODNet (93:9000/2) I have done some variants on Liber Thisarb...however, my visualizations are kind of different. I visualize myself looking at a videotape of my entire history of "past lives" and scanning in reverse until I find an interesting or significant moments. The Tibetan "past life" however came to me in a meditation where I was trying to just still my mind and sit there. It came completely unbidden, and was a total shock. --.\\<-H-- michelle.hass@ledge.com 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718