From: Tim Maroney Area: Thelema To: Michael Aquino 27 Sep 94 08:08:10 Subject: Re: Sekhmet UpdReq Thank you for the information on Sekhet. I have also found out from other references that Sekhet/Sekhmet was often associated with Hathor in a dualistic relationship, reminiscent of the night-time relationship of Hekati and Persephone in Greek tradition. This would tend to cast the Crowleyan attribution of noon to Hathor in a better light (so to speak). It also explains the text of the adoration, as the word "triumphing" is more appropriate to the Sekhmet aspect than to Hathor. Tim Maroney 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Tim Maroney Area: Thelema To: JOSEPH MAX 27 Sep 94 08:12:28 Subject: RE: SECRET RITES OF THE O UpdReq I am a bit puzzled at your statement that chaos theory figures prominently in Carroll's work. In preparing my article on "Science Fiction and the Mythic Future" earlier this year, I read Carroll's works and found very little beyond one brief and misstated reference to the butterfly effect as the basis for magical effects. It's possible that I missed something; could you provide a citation with page numbers? Thanks! Tim Maroney 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Joseph Max Area: Thelema To: Tim Maroney 27 Sep 94 08:46:44 Subject: RE: SECRET RITES OF THE O UpdReq Re: Chaos References by Carroll My copy of _Liber Kaos_ is out on loan, so I'll get back to you with those references, but in _Liber Null & Psychonaut_ refer to the chapter "Catastrophe Theory And Magic", pages 206 to 214. And as far as "Science fiction and the mythic future" (sounds like a great article!) you could have mined a lot of material from "Principia Chaotica" chapter of _Liber Kaos_; though it contained only the oblique mention to the butterfly effect as per CM, the whole section on the "Equations of Magic" would have fit right in to an article like that, I would think. I've been working on a book on the subject myself (isn't _everyone_ you know in magick working on a book?) called _Malleus Chaosium_ (working title) in which I explore the connection between Chaos Science and Magick a bit more than even Carroll. If you get MagickNet on PODs you'll find a few of my thoughts there on the subject... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: JOSEPH MAX Area: Thelema To: JOSH NORTON 24 Sep 94 08:36:00 Subject: RE: BOOK OF COMING FORTH UpdReq -=> Quoting Josh Norton to Joseph Max <=- JM> As far as I'm concerned, a "Chaos Magic Order" is a contradiction in JM> terms. The whole idea of chaos magic (IMNSHO) is that the practice of JM> magic is not only a dynamic, ever-changing phenomenon, but is also a JM> highly experimental, maleable and personal expression of art. JN> Heh. I feel the same way about "Thelemic Magickal Order" and "Setian JN> Magickal Order" -- both are oxymorons, for different reasons. JN> But what's to distinguish a Chaosist from, say, a Discordian or a JN> Thelemic anarchist? I don't see it as a really new phenomenon. To use a metaphor, what's to distinguish a Tibetian Bhuddist from a Zen? Or an Anglican Christian from a Catholic? Was Protestantism a "new" phenomenon as regards Christainity when it arose? I can only answer for myself, of course, but let me share some of my thinking about what "Chaos" and "Magick" have in common. To me it's more than a trendy buzzword for LHP magick. Chaos is _not_ "disorder". It would be more correct to call it "turbulence" or Non-Linear Dynamics. It is a kind of "higher order" that gives rise to certain statistically predictable, evolving patterns. Though I do have a strong Discordian streak in me, Discordians seek disorder as a tool for psychic iconoclasm/devolution/warfare. This is useful, but as Ann Rice's vampires told their Queen of the Damned, "You are no healer. You cannot give life or save it. All you can do is _kill_." I don't think a real Chaos Magician can have any aspirations toward a religion of any kind, be it one of Jehovah, Set, Oviz or even Eris Discordia. My Chaos Magick is practical, personal and experimental. There is no other criteria to judge the usefulness or effectiveness of any magickal practice other than _results_. Any practice that proves to be effacious at obtaining predictable results should be incorporated, regardless of it's source. Of course, what brings results varies from individual to individual. To be a Thelemite means accepting certain metaphysical doctrines, such as the Kabbalah and the Book Of The Law. These are fine and good to study for inspirational purposes, but merely memorising Liber AL does not by itself bring about change in the world according to Will. So if I can obtain my desired results without learning the symbolism of ancient Egypt, the Tree Of Life or practicing yogic meditation techniques, I conclude that these studies are totally unneccessary - for me. As a chaosist, I seek the metaphysical equivilent of what Chaos Mathematics calls Strange Attractors. An example of a strange attractor in chaos dynamics would be a vortex that arises out of a turbulent background. It happens in water (whirlpools), clouds (tornadoes), dust storms (dust devils), in any turbulent medium, from a galaxy to the drain in your bathtub. Totally different contexts, but with a recognizable, repeating pattern. The "advancement" that Chaos Magick makes in the world of Magick is the stripping away of the archaic symbology and useless decorative trappings that virtually every "magickal system" is saddled with to some degree and find the "strange attractors". Almost without exception there are commonalities between any given magickal systems, some examples being astral projection or the use of talismans. These are the Strange Attractors of Magick, and they always seem to consist of what actually is useful in a practical sense. So to me, Chaos Magick is taking the Strange Attractors, stripping them of their useless superstitious symbolism, and yielding a practical technique. Here's a metaphor: certain alkaloids exist in natural plants that yield a particular class of hallucinogenic effects on the mind. We find these in morning glory and Hawaiian baby wood rose seeds, and also in the ergot fungus - three completely different forms of plant life, but all containing a common chemical: lysergic acid. Research into the nature of this chemical yielded a refined form of the natural version with far greater strength: Lysergic Acid Diethylamide - LSD. The plant forms, and the "religious" and ritual trappings that arose around them in certain shamanistic cultures, are entirely superfulous if one only wishes to obtain the effect of a psychedelic experience. So the metaphor is that I wish to obtain the "trip" without having to take lessons from Don Juan on being a medicine man. JN> At the risk of waxing nostalgic, I wonder how many Chaosists are aware JN> of the bate cabal group of the 1970's and early 80's? That group JN> actually succeeded where the IOT later failed. No structure, no JN> hierarchy, no authority, recognized all claims of initiation as valid JN> within their sphere. It was basically a communications network between JN> individual magicians "doing their wills". Lasted almost fifteen years JN> before the currents moved people apart. Its central core is still JN> around, in the form of the Black Moon Archives, even though its JN> associates have gone their own ways for a while now. Sounds like what the AutonomatriX is trying to do with Chaos Magick; a confedration of peers, a "matrix" of "autonomous" magicians that come together only to share techniques and perform group workings. The way it is set up, there are only two classifications: member, or NON-member. There is no heirarchy beyond how long one has been with the group, no "inner circles" no "masters" and "neophytes". A network of magickal "lodges", each with a membership of _one_. ... ...As easy as 3.14159265358979323846264338327950.... ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: JOSEPH MAX Area: Thelema To: GRENDEL GRETTISSON 24 Sep 94 08:36:00 Subject: Re: RTOD#2 UpdReq -=> Quoting Grendel Grettisson to To Meta Thereon <=- TM> No, I was not trying to be funny, I am just upset that so many TM> people take their rituals so seriously, and do not experiment TM> with their own ideas. TM> Just trying to open some minds is all GG> I could finger paint with shit but it wouldn't make it art in my GG> opinion. Similarily, I can use Gilligan's Island characters in my LBRP GG> but that doesn't make it magic. It does if it _works_! Results are the only meaningful criteria. Mapplethorpe used _piss_ in his art! And it sells for _big bucks_! As McLuhan said, "Art is anything you can get away with..." ... "I KNOW it was a tornado, Toto, but you wizzed on my carpet." ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: To Meta Thereon Area: Thelema To: Grendel Grettisson 26 Sep 94 15:26:02 Subject: RTOD#2 UpdReq You seem to oppose a hell of a lot of what I say. What is your idea of magick? I see it as a way to achieve enlightenment and peace while having fun doing it. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: To Meta Thereon Area: Thelema To: Navitae 26 Sep 94 15:27:54 Subject: Re: organization UpdReq A Thelemite that is unfamiliar with Crowley?! I have been secluded too long! I thought that it would be impossible to even joke about being a Thelemite w/o reading as much Crowley as possible. I still buy whatever I can get my hands on and read it thouroughly. That's like the Christians not reading the Bible! the Muslims w/o the Koran and the Wiccans w/o Gardner or Buckland! i can understand the myriad interpretations of Crowley, because that is what he desired to keep Thelema from breaking into sects, but it is when these views are impenetrable that one runs into trouble. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: To Meta Thereon Area: Thelema To: Navitae 26 Sep 94 15:32:10 Subject: Re: TOPY UpdReq Sorry about not quoting the messages, but I don't have an offline reader/editor so how is it possible? 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: To Meta Thereon Area: Thelema To: Andrew Haigh 26 Sep 94 15:44:58 Subject: Chaos Magick? UpdReq My theory of chaos magick is the actual pulling down and utilizing bits and pieces of the surrounding chaos and molding it into the shapes and forms that you seek. If this is to be practiced, then the resulting creation would be highly unstable and could revert to chaos immediately. If this is so, then you are correct that Carroll has just hooked on to the chaos name to grab followers. The only problem with the Chaos Magick as I understand it is that it _is_ Highly unstable, and a mistake could lead you into oblivion. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: To Meta Thereon Area: Thelema To: All!!! 26 Sep 94 15:48:58 Subject: Star Ruby UpdReq When practicing the Star Ruby I get intense results, but there does seem to be some side effects. 1. I can feel the violent energy in me the next day.(O.K., it's just a nuisance, and can be interesting in seeing your views split on topics) 2. i keep having dreams about Tornados afterwards. To me, tornados symbolise chaos, destruction, and massive power. Does anyone else here understand or get these results? are these the results I should expect? I just started practicing it 2 wks ago and find it quite different than the LBRP, and am not sure that these results are shared or if it is my own experience with the energies of the SR that leads to them. Any info is appreciated. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: To Meta Thereon Area: Thelema To: All 26 Sep 94 17:13:48 Subject: Star Sapphire UpdReq I have the technical instructions for the Star Sapphire, but if anyone could give some sort of commentary on how it is actually done I would appreciate it. I am pretty sure of everything until after the circle is made, and if there is any vocalization that should be combined with the signs of NOX. Signs of Set triumphant and Baphomet? "Let [Set] drink of the sacrament and let him communicate the same"? making of the rosy cross. is this the Qabalistic Cross or the likeness in the Star Ruby or is it just drawing the cross with a circle? I would like to add this ritual to my dailies, but cant find enough info on the actual performing of it. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Grendel Grettisson Area: Thelema To: Fir 26 Sep 94 00:47:02 Subject: Web of Wyrd UpdReq * Replying to a message originally to Julia Phillips on 09-24-94 FF> Do you know if Robert Turner who penned _Elizabethan Magic_ FF> was/is in the Order of the Cubic Stone? I just assumed he was FF> but someone recently questioned this. He founded it, I believe. You've seen some of his work from it. Wassail, Grendel Grettisson 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Andy Bender Area: Thelema To: Grendel Grettisson 22 Sep 94 14:13:04 Subject: Dreck? UpdReq GG> > The only evil is organization, and I could go on about this, but GG> > remember mob rule and the Christian church. GG> "Mob Rule" is not usually a synonym for "Organization." Quite the opposi GG> There is no evil in organization. It is perfectly GG> functional and allows people to cooperate together. The GG> only evil that comes is if people allows themselves to be GG> controlled or coerced by other people, organized or not. Do GG> your will, man. Don't blame it on some group. Indeed. If we all swore off organization, we wouldn't even be having this conversation, as Fido and PODS &c. could certainly not exist. My, my, my... how evil. LVX ___ X RM 1.3 01655 X Be nice to your kids. They will choose your nursing home. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Fir Area: Thelema To: Grendel Grettisson 26 Sep 94 06:40:00 Subject: Turner UpdReq GG> He founded it, I believe. You've seen some of his work from it. One issue of the Monolith, yes. Still waiting to see more issues. Regards, Fir 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Fir Area: Thelema To: Michael Aquino 26 Sep 94 06:55:00 Subject: Sekhmet UpdReq MA> See pages #514-517 in Budge's _Gods of the Egyptians_, Volume MA> 1. Budge spells the name "Sekhet". From this section: Thanks for citing this reference! 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: The Pict Area: Thelema To: Julia Phillips 26 Sep 94 21:28:00 Subject: Pict In Oz - Also Last Shadowplay ForumUpdReq Would love to come and stay - p'rhaps meet you for dinner Monday 10th (spending day with my mum doing a mad shopping thang down The Rocks), stay that night and spend the next day and evening catching up on wotnot? Would then meet up with Antonia on Wednesday 13th and be there from then to the Sunday. Would that work? Otherwise I could go to B & A's new house first and then see you later in the week, say Wed/Thurs? Now I know it's a bother to pick up the phone :) but it would be dead good to know what I'm doing when (no comments from the peanut gallery - I know it's a novel concept:) :) -) The number is, as usual (206) 527 8060. If you press * you can skip our lovely message and just leave the number where you want me to call back. Soon is good. I leave in a week. By the by - part 2 of the title of this message: The last issue of the comic is being put together (and is mostly done) but I had this brainstorm about a fun article to include. There are these two questions I'd like an answer to (among the many I'd like an answer to, to be sure) - varying from one to four paragraphs for each one. 1. How has your personal magick changed in the past ten years? 2. How do you think the magickal world has changed in the past ten years? There. How's that for easy questions? Grin. Smirk. So far I have about seven solid pages of answers from diverse folk from both here and there. Would really appreciate a few words from you, and from anyone else who wants to respond - for publication in the last (for now) issue of Shadowplay. My deadline is Wednesday this week - ie 28th September. For once I'm not going to be typing Shadowplay half an hour before I leave for the airport for an international flight. I won't say I got more clever than that, because you'd doubtless make funny remarks at my expense :) but it will certainly help me have more whoopee / nookie before I go. :) Am looking forward to seeing you. Big hugs. Lots of love. Rhea 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Andrew Haigh Area: Thelema To: Joseph Max 26 Sep 94 19:27:44 Subject: RE: SECRET RITES OF THE O UpdReq -=> Quoting Andrew Haigh to Navitae <=- AH> .. I work with Chaos theory quite often and AH> have had a great deal of success with it, JM> In what way do you "work with it"? Magickally? JM> Intellectually? Artistically? JM> What kind of "successes" are you speaking of? All of the above. The success I refer to consist of perception of the raw energy matrix which is my reality, perception of the ordered attractors which shape this matrix, perception of other realities beneath, betwixt, and beyond our locality. The recognition of the non-linearality of Life and Existance, coupled with the trancendance of each. JM> Which is fine, as far as _you_ are concerned. But the JM> tone you use seems to JM> indicate that you don't think it has any value for anyone else, either. Don't read more into my posts than exists. If others find it useful, great for them. But what currently passes for Chaos Magick is, for me, mostly useless. JM> If you don't think "Chaos Magick" has anything to do JM> with Spare, Carroll, et JM> al, then what _does_ it have to do with other than JM> drawing pretty pictures JM> on a computer screen or chiming the strings on your guitar? JM> (I'm always amazed at what fascinates the simple mind...) To me it has more to do with tapping the hidden reaches of the mind, reaching a state of relative being several orders of magnitude beyond the mundane and world-walking through a sea of infinite probabilities. Fractal images, and harmonics are but keys into this hyper-reality. (And you really should keep the sarcasm in check, it is most unbecoming and instead of coming of droll, makes you appear snide) JM> Spare lived long before any theory of non-linear dynamics had been JM> developed, so in his case your making a highly unfair JM> assessment. The Chaos JM> ("Kia") of Spare was a metaphysical concept, not a scientific one. So? From what I have read of the man, even had non-linear dynamics reached the public sphere by his time ,he probably wouldn't have found it interesting or inspiring. His Chaos is not mine, `nuff said. JM> As for Carroll, I suppose this means you have not read "Fiat Nox" and JM> "Principia Chaotica" from _Liber Kaos_ or "Catastrophe Theory and Magic" JM> from _Psychonaut_". Because whether or not you agree with his JM> interpretations of Chaos Theory as it applies to Magick, Chaos Theory JM> figures prominently in these works. And since these are his only widely JM> published works, it puzzles me as to what, if anything, of his you _have_ JM> read, and how you came to your conclusions, except by JM> knee-jerking through JM> second-hand opinions. JM> I'm no stark-raving Carrollite, but I give the man his due... I have actually read most of these works and have come to my conclusions through comparison with what I know of chaos theory, non-linear dynamics, fractal geometry. I have not dismissed their material by knee-jerking through others opinions, I would not discount anyone's work without giving it a fair shot, but there is little in this body of work that I find of use. and regardless of you're opinion, if I cannot use something, I cast it aside and reach for something that I can. If you cannot understand this (and by the tone of your posts you can't) that is not my problem. @~ 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Ralf Loeffler Area: Thelema To: All 25 Sep 94 13:41:18 Subject: Equinox Vol. III UpdReq Hi All, I'm looking for ascii-versions of Crowley's Equinox Vol. III No. 1-10. Can anybody tell me an address for download? thanks, Ralf. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Julia Phillips Area: Thelema To: To Meta Thereon 27 Sep 94 19:06:30 Subject: organization UpdReq Hello To Meta Thereon! 23 Sep 94 14:20, To Meta Thereon wrote to Grendel Grettisson: TMT> see the ignorance in many organized followers? The freemasons TMT> seem to know less of what they are doing than most magickians TMT> familiar with their rituals, and Christians have lost the TMT> independence it requires to interpret the Bible usefully. I do TMT> not despise these groups or any groups that would come up, I am TMT> just saying that it is sad that this is what a large organization TMT> can do. Eventually, the larger the organization grows, the more TMT> of an institution it becomes, and have you ever tried to argue TMT> with an institution? It is useless. I think you've raised some really interesting points here; probably because much of what you're saying agrees with my own opinions . I don't think smaller groups or organisations are necessarily afflicted with this lack of individuality, but the larger it gets, the more institutionalised it becomes. TMT> Again forgive me if you took it as a personal attack, I was just TMT> stating what I have observed over my short time on this earth. Receiving a message from Grendel is a rite of passage in PODS He's cute really (just said that to wind up Grendel hehehehehe) B*B Julia 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Julia Phillips Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 27 Sep 94 19:15:28 Subject: Liber al prophecy UpdReq Hello Josh! 23 Sep 94 19:47, Josh Norton wrote to Julia Phillips: JP>> Warrior Lord.... the Eighties cower before me and are JP>> abased", was a direct reference to Margaret Thatcher, and JN> What? Maggie an incarnation of Horus???? The mind boggles! I JN> always associated her with the Vulture-goddess. I can see the resemblance :) But, having lived under her imperious rule, and seen many a poor mortal tremble under her hawk-like gaze, I'd say Horus was getting closer :) There was a lot of cowering and abasing going on in Britain in the 1980s, most of under Maggie's iron fist. JP>> erroneously, but there you go. Soooooo.... does Liber AL JP>> have a global message, or is it more localised? I dunno... JN> Hmmm. Good thought. Ans: I dunno. Well, that makes it unanimous - a pair of dunnos JN> I suspect that it's sphere of JN> influence is primarily in the "white" cultures, i.e., Europe, JN> North America, Aus-NZ, with little _direct_ effect elsewhere. I'd agree with the Europe/North Am bit, but I'm not so sure about Aus-NZ influence. It's difficult to describe, but in Oz at any rate (and I guess the same would apply to NZ), things that happen elsewhere in the world (particularly Europe/USA/Can) seem very remote. It's not that they aren't reported here, or given lots of air-time, just that there seems to be no real impact. Course, that could just be my subjective opinion :) However, given the relative isolation of Oz/NZ until fairly recent times, I doubt if Crowley would have included the antipodes in his prophecies. But I'm always open to contrary opinions :) B*B Julia 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Julia Phillips Area: Thelema To: Fir 27 Sep 94 19:46:46 Subject: Web of Wyrd UpdReq Hello Fir! 24 Sep 94 16:34, Fir wrote to Julia Phillips: F> Welcome back Julia! Thanks Fir... nice to be back :) F> I hear you're about to get a visitor from Seattle soon. So rumour has it... F> I should warn you she's asking people to answer a couple of questions for F> her last issue of Shadowplay. She only gave me one day to come F> up with my answers! Thanks for the warning! I promise not to dob you in :) F> Do you know if Robert Turner who penned _Elizabethan Magic_ F> was/is in the Order of the Cubic Stone? I just assumed he was F> but someone recently questioned this. Well, I don't think I have any documents here which would back it up, but FWIW, when I met Robin Cousins (who was the author of the Liber Scientiae bit published in Elizabethan Magic), I'm sure I remember him saying that both he and Turner were members of the OCS at the time. Sorry not to be more definite; if I can find anything which confirms it, I'll let you know. B*B Julia 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Fir 26 Sep 94 20:08:02 Subject: Solar enlightenment UpdReq Thus said Fir to Josh Norton concerning Solar enlightenment: Fi> Hi Josh! Howdy! How're things going? JN> And awareness of new aspects of one's own being also JN> produces an awareness of the corresponding aspects of the universe at JN> large, so that one's relationship to the world constantly JN> evolves as well. Fi> Would you give an example of this? Arrggh. How can such a simple question be so difficult to answer? The problem isn't a lack of examples; I've got a plethora of 'em, if not a surfeit. Translating from the personal to the general mode is much more difficult. (Dives into his navel for a few minutes...) You'll recall my method for working backwards from transits to discover the "essence" of various astrological forces. Once I'd used this method long enough that I could understand the forces actions on myself -- "seeing" them with an "inner eye" -- I began to perceive when these same forces were affecting things and people around me. Knowing when someone else was under an astrological pressure tended to change my reactions to their behavior, and therefor my relationship with them. Similarly, being able to perceive their action in events on the social and political levels was very educational; I was linked into those events in a new way and no longer perceived them as entirely the results of individual's actions; they became dynamic manifestations of astrological archetypes as well. Another example: The Neptunian aspect of myself has taken on differing expressions depending on how aware I was of its activity. Back when I was totally unaware of it, it produced a tendency to drift off into daydreams -- or simply into nowhere -- without being aware that I had done so. Sometimes I would be driving my car and suddenly realize that I couldn't remember anything I'd done for several minutes; my conscious self had simply been non-existent during that period. Later on, when I began to see it as a specific function of my mind, it began to serve as a means by which entities could send me things. They'd touch it and send me a prepared image of some sort that served as the basis for an instructional session, or as the grounding point for some new energy to which they wanted to expose me. This was a passive mode; I couldn't ask for anything specific, or even for a general area of knowledge. I had to take whatever was offered. Later yet, I learned to master its activity consciously, and to go out looking for information through the sort of scrying I now do. It no longer serves as a passive receiver; I always have to go looking, now. But I still space out occasionally, as I'm sure you've noticed. But note that you can lose things as new levels open up, as well. I'm nowhere near as good at sensing "outside" astrological activity as I was ten years ago; my attention got drawn to other aspects of existence and it lost its importance. Suppose I could recover it if I wanted to, but it would take some effort. ... Is that quark strange? ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Navitae 26 Sep 94 16:50:04 Subject: Re: liber al prophecy UpdReq Thus said Navitae to Josh Norton concerning Re: liber al prophecy: JN> A world war for the first part of the prophecy, and a squabble between JN> two tiny, obscure magickal organizations for the second part? Somehow JN> that doesn't seem quite balanced to me. Na> I'm not going to try and argue the Motta position, but I would Na> point out that a Thelemite might view it otherwise. If you Na> believe that a New Aeon started in 1904, that Liber AL is the Na> book of the Aeon and A.C. was the prophet, then you might Na> conclude that whatever happens to one of the flagships of Thelema Na> is of vital importance to the planet. I agree that it's probably not worth arguing about. My personal feeling is that Thelema would still get along quite well if all its "official" organizations were to suddenly vanish. The current was never under their control, and isn't dependent upon them for spreading itself. ... Is God dead, or is he just swapped out? ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Joseph Max 26 Sep 94 20:11:06 Subject: Re: peter carroll UpdReq Thus said Joseph Max to Mars Gunn concerning Re: peter carroll: -=> Quoting Mars Gunn to Josh Norton, Joseph Max <=- MG> While I have my own critisisms of Carroll (irresponsible to an MG> extent, a little heavy on the 'black' side of things) I've never MG> considered his thinking sloppy. It's been a couple of years since MG> I've read to any depth, his stuff. I'd like to hear where you both MG> feel he's sloppy and laconic. JM> Josh said "sloppy", so I'll let him answer to that. Heh. I did a little of that in another message to you. But maybe "sloppy" isn't entirely the right word. (Pulls _Liber Kaos_ off the shelf.) Here's a few of my problems with his work: My reaction to Pete's "Mathematics of Magic" is much the same as my reaction to Gerry Schueler's "Enochian Physics". I.e., extreme annoyance. My primary objection is: How the hell is he measuring and quantifying these factors -- such as "gnosis", "magickal link", "conscious awareness" and "unconscious resistance"??? It's one thing to say that the "higher" a state the magician attains in his ceremony, and the clearer his symbolic connection to the thing desired, the more likely the work is to succeed. Or to say that meddling by the conscious or unconscious mind tends to reduce the likelihood of success. Both of those statements are more or less true. But it's an entirely different bag of worms to claim that you can apply a numerical value to each of these factors and come up with an absolute mathematical probability of the success of a working. If he's actually managed to create a reliable objective measure of complex subjective states, he certainly ought to publish -- a century's worth of psychological research hasn't come close to doing so! As things stand, he's giving "ideal" numerical values for the various factors, but not providing any means of determining whether a specific effort by some person meets that ideal. It also seems to me that the range of measurement is shifting over time, so you can't use a person's individual maximum effort at a given moment as a realistic measure. For instance, a person's "gnosis" in a particular ceremony might be .8 of whatever his potential maximum is at that point in time, but only .4 of the maximum level he achieves a few years later. Which number do you use? Similarly, is .8 of a novice's "gnosis" as effective as .8 of an experienced practitioners? There's no standard of measurement, so his math is nonsense. Even on the objective side there are problems. As an example, for a "blue" magick working to bring money, how is he calculating the "probability" of money falling into the person's hands "by chance"? And what does he mean by "chance" in this context? Practically any concatenation of events that will bring money is going to involve human beings at some point -- buried treasures and dragon's hoards being in short supply these days. Which means that individual self-wills are involved and "chance" in any remotely scientific sense is effectively impossible. Until he can come up with such objective measures, and explains them in details, a reasonably intelligent person ought to assume that he's just trying to impress the yokels. Maybe including himself, hmmm? I'll leave a critique of his "Aeonics" for another time. (Though I'll remark that that "psychohistory" figure looks suspiciously like a biorhythm chart.) The rest of Liber Kaos annoys me because it seems to be just a matter of applying a new set of labels to things that magicians have known all along. What's the point of calling something "Blue" magick instead of "Jupiter" or "Chesed" magick? Or "Orange" magick instead of "Mercurial" or "Hod" magick? It doesn't contribute anything new to our thinking about the subject, just makes a different column in the Table of Correspondences the primary. It would make just as much (and as little) sense to use the "Princess" scale of color and call "Blue" magick "Deep azure, flecked yellow" magick instead. (Think I'll indulge in some "citrine, flecked azure" magick tonight. ) I think I'd be less annoyed with Pete if he didn't have a lot of good things to say amongst all the flummery. He does his subject a disservice by dressing it up in pseudo-science and yet another useless jargon. Why not try to say it as plainly and clearly as he can, instead? ... Eva, can I stab bats in a cave? ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Michael Aquino 27 Sep 94 11:45:08 Subject: Re: book of coming forth UpdReq Thus said Michael Aquino to Joseph Max concerning Re: book of coming forth: MA> I experienced Set as an intelligent entity distinct from myself. MA> Having said this, please note the words "experienced" and "distinct" MA> in the previous sentence. To experience something is not MA> necessarily to know or prove MA> it definitively or objectively, and the apprehension of Set as someone MA> or something distinct from Michael Aquino [or any other Setian] is not MA> quite the same thing as "separate". How do you reconcile this statement with certain assertions made by Setians during our discussion earlier this year, and not contradicted by yourself? I.e. that at the core of a human being is a "self" completely separate from, and uninfluenced by, the rest of the universe? Is the Set you experienced simply a part of that "self" which is not under conscious control? It seems to me that, if any part of this experience of Set has its origins in the universe outside that "self", then we must either conclude that the experiencing entity is not that core self, or the core self is not free from outside influence. Which? Or do you offer a third alternative? ... It's an exorcism for you, young man! No two ways about it! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Ned Area: Thelema To: JOSH NORTON 28 Sep 94 02:20:00 Subject: Liber al prophecy UpdReq Ne> .... "Cower" and "abased" are fairly unequivocal terms whose Ne> contextual meaning one may expect to be plainly manifest, Ne> particularly if we take the first clause ("Warrior Lord of the Ne> Forties") as referring to WWII. ... JN>Heh. I think we're getting to the point of arguing symbolic aesthetics. Nod. "Nitpicking" might be a more appropriate term, though less charitable . As usual, I quibble over trivialities. JN>Possibly I'm missing your point. That doesn't seem likely sir. JN>At the _political_ level, the U.S./Soviet rivalry was fairly universal JN>-- think of how often they each supported opposing sides in the JN>brushfire wars of the 60's, 70's, and 80's. And potential nuclear JN>annihilation makes a fairly "overarching" theme, since -- had it JN>happened -- it would have made every other argument on the globe moot. Though, by your own statement, both situations spanned several decades and hence dont apply uniquely to the 80's. JN>Well, I didn't intend it as a definitive interp. Just a thought to get JN>some conversations started; things were pretty dead here for a while. Understood. It provoked me because I've been rolling it around for a while myself. I cannot make the verse fit history as I know it without force - but then, perhaps I am the warped component. Ned. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: JOSEPH MAX Area: Thelema To: MICHAEL AQUINO 25 Sep 94 08:25:00 Subject: RE: BOOK OF COMING FORTH UpdReq -=> Quoting Michael Aquino to Joseph Max <=- JM> In your opinion, where does the manifestation of Set as you experienced JM> him fit in? Do you hold one or the other of these interpretation, or JM> another interpretation entirely? I'm curious about your own experience JM> of the reception of TBOCFBN, more than any "offical" Setian policy on JM> the process of Knowledge and Conversation. MA> I experienced Set as an intelligent entity distinct from myself. MA> Having said this, please note the words "experienced" and "distinct" MA> in the previous sentence. To experience something is not necessarily to MA> know or prove it definitively or objectively, and the apprehension of MA> Set as someone or something distinct from Michael Aquino [or any other MA> Setian] is not quite the same thing as "separate". I understand that superrational events do not offer themselves to the methods of scientific proof (to say the least!) But since you have had several years to ponder, and perhaps to analyse the event in your own mind, do you feel that it qualifies as a manifestation of your Augoedies, or H.G.A. as defined by Crowley? IOW, was Set as you experienced him _your_ "personal Set", or a being so totally independent of your existence that another person would be capable of recieving a manifestation of exactly the same entity. I do realise that this would be a personal opinion only, and I'm not trying to maneuver some kind of logic trap or anything of the sort. I raise this question due to the fact that I too have had experiences of "seperate" intelligences communicating with me during magical trance states. I have never "seen" these "beings", the experience is one of claraudience (I "hear a voice" speaking quite clearly.) All the messages I've recieved have not been any earthshaking revelations, but simple statements pretaning to my life only. This has led me to believe that this "being" (it's always been the same one) is my "own" H.G.A. and has led me to speculate over the years (from one side to the other, paralleling Crowley's confusion) whether or not this being is "truly" a seperate entity or my own inner Self speaking, as it were. So I have a habit of gathering opinions and wisdom from those who have had similar experiences. Thank you for your forthright answers on this subject. I appreciate your time. - J:.M:.555 ... Try something less risky - like recording Enochian rap... ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718