From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Christeos Pir 18 Sep 94 12:10:00 Subject: Liber al prophecy UpdReq Thus said Christeos Pir to Josh Norton concerning Liber al prophecy: CP> My question is, and has been all along, If the Aeon is to last CP> approximately two millenia, then _what_ 40's and 80's are we talking CP> about? 1940's? 2040's? 2980's? 3880's? As the Christians learned -- and the Nostradamans SHOULD have learned, a prophecy that's too far out from real-time isn't worth a great deal. Think how many different versions of the "beast with ten horns" have been offered since Revelations was written. Ideally, a prophecy should at least begin its fulfillment within the lifetimes of people who were alive at the time it was made. That way there is someone around who is able to understand both the context of its original statement, and the context of its fulfillment, and so is able to say "Aha! So THAT'S what it meant!" Once you lose that contextual connection, everyone starts interpreting it in terms of events during their own lifetime, or in terms of events they know only through the lies we call "history". The range of possible meanings opens up beyond the point where meaningful selection can take place. CP> My favorite unserious explanation of the verse goes like this: CP> 40 & 80 ... Mem & Peh ... M & P ... Ma & Pa ... ergo, "I am the CP> warrior Lord of the women; the men bow down -oops, cower- before me CP> and are abased." Heh. The old Alpha Male raises his head again, eh? In re "bow down" -- that's one of the meanings of "abase". Maybe that's where you got it. ... Remember, god works in meaningless ways. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Joseph Max 18 Sep 94 14:42:00 Subject: Book of coming forth UpdReq Thus said Joseph Max to Josh Norton concerning Re: book of coming forth: Hi Joseph! JM> As I said before, there were more than enough _practical_ reasons for JM> Dr. A to go ahead with the split from CoS -- I know Anton personally, JM> having been the technician who installed his electronic music studio at JM> the Black House and spent a number of evenings in conversation with the JM> man. He's not a bad fellow, actually, but I can see how up against JM> another Mage with an equally high-intensity ego there would be sparks JM> a-flying... Heh. My thought is that any organization that is influenced by a magickal current is inevitably going to suffer the agonies of schism. And the stronger the current, the more often it happens. Consider the multitude of children of the Golden Dawn that have come and gone, or the several O.T.O.s and A.A.s. (I understand that even the Chaosists (Chaoticists?) haven't managed to stay completely free of the phenomenon -- didn't the IOT have some problems a short while ago?) Reasonable enough, since the natural trend of any human organization is towards structure, limitation, regulation, and definition; while the natural trend of a magickal current is towards change. Sooner or later the creative necessities of a current cease to be completely met by its adherent organizations; it causes new groups to split off or arise separately to meet those needs. The human conflicts involved are just a reflection of this process. About the only solution is to make the organization _completely_ subordinate to the individual wills of the "units of action" (i.e. human beings) who are the true effectuators of any magickal current. Even then you can have problems, since any group produces collective unconscious- level pressures on its members even when it has no consciously defined organization or rules. JM> I like Peter Carroll's comment: "I don't consider a work of invocation JM> a success unless I'm surprised by the result!" Most of the time Pete's sloppy thinking annoys me, but he sure got that right. What's the point of exploring if you only end up where you've already been? ... Oxymoron #1: Rational Man ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: To Meta Thereon 18 Sep 94 15:33:02 Subject: Liber al prophecy UpdReq Thus said To Meta Thereon to Josh Norton concerning Liber al prophecy: TMT> There does seem to be a lot of people claiming spritual TMT> enlightenment in these times, but I have only met a few TMT> whose claims I would trust. Well, there's enlightenment and there's enlightenment. The "solar" level I was speaking of is a definite improvement over mundane consciousness, but it's still a long way from what a Buddha would consider an enlightened state. ... Oxymoron #1609: Unified Libertarians. --- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: To Meta Thereon Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 19 Sep 94 15:07:12 Subject: Solar enlightenment UpdReq What do you mean when you use the term "solar enlightenment"? I am not familiar with this term, but the enlightenment I was speaking of was a more Buddha-like type. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Grendel Grettisson Area: Thelema To: JOSEPH MAX 17 Sep 94 08:59:02 Subject: 'ELLO UpdReq > The point of my exercise was to free myself from the _need_ to > understand > what it was I was doing and (as the saying goes) JUST DO IT! Finding a > Master Mage as a teacher is real hard these days, so I used a written > course (the G:.D:.'s) as my "master" and just _did what I was told_, > without trying > to analyse it in advance. Having completed it, the reasons for doing it > became clear in ways that I could not have imagined intellectually > beforehand. This was the lesson I learned: There is absolute value in > the work itself, beyond the obvious results. A martial artist who practices > Tai Chi will become a far better martial artist for it, even though the Tai > Chi is not strictly a fighting style itself. A runner who takes dance > lessons > will become a better runner. A magician who learns a discipline will > become a better magician. In this, we find agreement. Wassail, Grendel Grettisson Internet:mimir@io.com 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Grendel Grettisson Area: Thelema To: To Meta Thereon 17 Sep 94 09:02:02 Subject: dreck? UpdReq > It was just a suggestion because everyone seems so serious about their > magickal life, and the more serious you get, the more you resemble a > member of an organized religion. Oh No!!!! > The only evil is organization, and I could go on about this, but > remember mob rule and the Christian church. "Mob Rule" is not usually a synonym for "Organization." Quite the opposite. There is no evil in organization. It is perfectly functional and allows people to cooperate together. The only evil that comes is if people allows themselves to be controlled or coerced by other people, organized or not. Do your will, man. Don't blame it on some group. Wassail, Grendel Grettisson Internet:mimir@io.com 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Fir Area: Thelema To: Tony Iannotti 17 Sep 94 10:44:00 Subject: Mezla Rec'd UpdReq TI> I used to have the complete set from the Brocken Mountain TI> Lodge Library, TI> through the 11th one, but now I seem to only have 1, 2, 5, 6, TI> 10 & 11. Nuts! Balls! My aquaintance lent me his copies yesterday. He's got 1 thru 8, 11, and 12. The Black Moon packet has 2, 4 thru 8, 10 thru 12, and one I can't figure out the number for, possibly 7? Do you see the issue numbers burried in the text somewhere? Would you like me to make you copies of the ones you're missing? TI> I had some of the later, more recent ones from Fla, but don't TI> see them around TI> here either. Moved a ove year ago, and am still not completely TI> unpacked, though. From Fla. also entitled Mezla? I've got some issues of Sothis and one issue of Starfire but they're all from London I think. TI> ... Ezz beeg troble for moose and squirrel. Hunting season? Regards, Fir 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Fir Area: Thelema To: Tony Iannotti 17 Sep 94 17:01:00 Subject: Mezla Rec'd UpdReq What I meant to say is maybe the mystery issue is #9. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Michael Aquino Area: Thelema To: Joseph Max 18 Sep 94 09:51:20 Subject: Re: BOOK OF COMING FORTH UpdReq JN> By published accounts, Aquino had concluded prior to his invocation JN> that the CoS had failed in its mission, and that it's leaders were not JN> living up to their promises. He says he did the invocation to find JN> guidance and a solution to the matter. The result of the invocation JN> confirmed his feelings, declared him the magus of a new aeon, and JN> directed him to set up a new organization. JM> As I said before, there were more than enough _practical_ reasons for JM> Dr. A to go ahead with the split from CoS -- I know Anton personally, JM> having been the technician who installed his electronic music studio at JM> the Black House and spent a number of evenings in conversation with the JM> man. He's not a bad fellow, actually, but I can see how up against JM> another Mage with an equally high-intensity ego there would be sparks JM> a-flying... In fact there was no ego-conflict between Anton and myself either before or after his decision to sell the Church of Satan's Priesthood and other degrees in 1975. The LaVeys and I were as close as family, as correspondence from that time easily proves. Our 1975 estrangement was purely and simply an issue of ethics, on a very specific and instant issue. Should the _Book of Coming Forth by Night_ have been a "surprise" [to be authentic]? Well, it *was* a surprise as such, but it also coalesced information that, in other forms and contexts, I [and other Satanists] had known previously. [You could say the same of the _Book of the Law_, which restated many themes and interests from Crowley's earlier writings.] Giving it the most skeptical and secular interpretation, one might describe the _Book of Coming Forth by Night_ as "an evaluation of the current situation and a prescription for a constructive solution to it" - and, to the extent that the solution was a good one, why should we who founded the Temple of Set have delayed? We tested the concept, and it worked - very well. What *was* delayed was extensive reflection on the magical & philosophical issues raised and treated in the _Book of Coming Forth by Night_. Over the successive years I and others have written many commentaries concerning the document as a whole and various individual statements within it. This too has been an interesting exploration, revealing subtle shades of meaning not originally apparent. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: JOSEPH MAX Area: Thelema To: TO META THEREON 17 Sep 94 08:50:00 Subject: RE: 'ELLO UpdReq -=> Quoting To Meta Thereon to Joseph Max <=- TMT> I thank you for the info. I had forgotten that simple saying about TMT> work. Yes, any work IS good work. If I had not heard that from TMT> Crowley, I heard it from David Carradine in Kung Fu. I understand now TMT> what is meant, but I still can not force myself to create the weapons. TMT> Perhaps, though, I should begin commiting Liber 777 to memory, and TMT> other of Crowley's writings If you have any help concerning such a TMT> great task please relay it to me. Commiting Liber 777 to memory? Ye gods, you're a braver man than I... Remember that 777 is basically a encyclopedia of the Kabbala anyway, so you would be getting Kabbala "through the back door", as it were. One of the tasks the |0|=(0) Neophyte in the Golden Dawn must do is memorise the Hebrew alphabet and each symbol's meanings. This would be the first step in memorising Liber 777 anyway, so it you'd have strong tradition backing you up in this! I might also suggest the exercise that is required of the OTO initiate - commit _The Book of the Law_ to memory, especially the first chapter. Good luck on your path, - J:.M:.555 ... Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Tony Iannotti Area: Thelema To: Fir 20 Sep 94 07:12:40 Subject: Mezla UpdReq TI> through the 11th one, but now I seem to only have 1, 2, 5, 6,TI> 10 & 11. Nuts! F> Balls! My aquaintance lent me his copies yesterday. He's got F> 1 thru 8, 11, and 12. The Black Moon packet has 2, 4 thru 8, F> 10 thru 12, and one I can't figure out the number for, possibly 7? F> Do you see the issue numbers burried in the text somewhere? Is that the Earth Religion News one, with the funky border? I think it would be #5, since #6 continues the Cefalu Working. If not, it would be one I don't have in front of me. That was the only one I have or remember as being problematical. F> Would you like me to make you copies of the ones you're missing? I certainly would. And I will copy for you 9, etc. as soon as I retrieve it. (I hope to see my friend Jerry in SF this Fall. He has a complete set, I think.) TI> I had some of the later, more recent ones from Fla, but don't F> From Fla. also entitled Mezla? I've got some issues of Sothis F> and one issue of Starfire but they're all from London I think. Yes, I forget his name at the moment, but someone put out a few glossy 4 pagers entitled Mezla, continuing the numbering from 13, I think. Again, I may have to rely on Jerry to fill me in again, but they were from the '80s. TI> ... Ezz beeg troble for moose and squirrel. F> Hunting season? Boris & Natasha. Are you so young? ;-) 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Tony Iannotti Area: Thelema To: Fir 20 Sep 94 07:22:44 Subject: Mezla UpdReq F> What I meant to say is maybe the mystery issue is #9. Dunno. I thought they got better about numbering as they went. What's in it? Sometimes they have the year in copyright mundanely, or the equinox/solstice and era nova noted on the masthead. That could put it in sequence, if there. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718