From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: All 28 Aug 94 15:32:18 Subject: Blake Camp News UpdReq * A N N O U N C E M E N T * Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. William Blake Camp O.T.O. proudly announces the debut of our monthly newsletter! (Be afraid... Be very afraid...) Charter Subscriptions are $12 per year. Sample copies are only $1. (Please make checks payable to "Cash".) Reciprocal subscriptions available for other O.T.O. bodies. Foreign Subscriptions will be the same rate plus postage. William Blake Camp Ordo Templi Orientis P.O. Box 404 Ashburn VA 22011-0404 Love is the law, love under will. - Christeos Pir Fr. Vitriol Io, Secretary William Blake Camp, O.T.O. ... There is a deep taint beneath the ineffable bliss; 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Grendel Grettisson Area: Thelema To: Fra:. Michael 111 28 Aug 94 00:45:00 Subject: Secret Rites of the O.T.O. UpdReq FM> What condition is it in? As I said, it is in "good" condition. There is a small tear on the back of the dustcover but it is fine otherwise. FM> What are you looking for in the way of monetary compensation? The market rate. I'm not quoting prices over the echoes. Netmail me an offer if you are interested. None of the other offers have shown up yet. If you are interested in what others sell it for, Weiser maintains a sections for used books and they generally have a copy for sale. You could call them and ask them what they want for theirs. Wassail, Grendel Grettisson 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Navitae Area: Thelema To: Kevin Bold 22 Aug 94 11:44:08 Subject: Re: Will the Real O.T.O. Please Stand Up?UpdReq Na> I don't share the court's view at all (they are not in a position Na> to be able to judge Thelemic matters), but I look at it from the Na> viewpoint that the Caliphate OTO has thrived (while to other OTO Na> groups are pretty decimated) and have therefore proven Na> themsevles. KB> They weren't trying to judge a "thelemic" matter. They were trying to KB> prove who had the better _legal_ claim to the name Ordo Templi KB> Orientis, not who was the more sincere Thelemite, nor the rights of KB> non-O.T.O. members to start their own Thelemic organizations. KB> Suppose a group of friends decided to call themselves "The Roman KB> Catholic Church" and elected a leader whom they call "The Pope". As KB> long as they do this as a joke, no one will care much, but if they KB> decide to publish material that regularly libels John Paul II, KB> disputes his claim to the papacy, etc, and caused some real damage to KB> the Church or confusion within the Catholic community, then the "real" KB> Catholic Church would have every right to sue them. This would be a KB> _legal_ matter, not a "spiritual" one. KB> I hope this cleared things up. Er, umm. Well, I think you missed my point though in an odd way we're saying the same thing. I didn't say the court was trying to judge a Thelemic matter, but that they are not "able" to do so. It's outside of their domain. The point I'm making is that the court's approval don't mean squat in Thelemic terms. Even if the court had gone against the Caliphate OTO I'd still support them and their authority to the Order as well as to publish (oddly enough, this is the position that the SOTO and others are taking since they continue to publish regardless of the law). 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Navitae Area: Thelema To: Paul Hume 22 Aug 94 11:56:30 Subject: Re: Archives & History UpdReq N> I don't remember the name of the temple, but it met N> in the British Museum. KB> I believe it was Isis-Urania. PH> Nope, whether there was a Budge branch or not, it wasn't Isis-Urania, PH> which was the "main" London temple, and whose peregrinations are PH> pretty thoroughly documented in things like Gilbert's Golden Dawn PH> Companion. PH> (Isis-Urania was under the direction of Annie Horniman and, later I PH> think,Florence Farr, before the revolt of the adepts in 1900). PH> Paul This is what I've got on Florence Farr and Annie Horniman: 1897, Florence Farr (D. 4/29/1917) established the Sphere in London (based on the G.'.D.'.). 3/13/1900, Florence Farr was expelled by Mathers. 3/29/1900, The original G.'.D.'. went through a period of severe dissent when a revolt was led by Ms. Annie Horniman against Mathers. Several different groups were started. One Group remained under Mathers authority. When he died, Moina Mathers took over and established the Alpha et Omega 3 Temple in 1919. J.W. Brodie-Innes formed a second temple (Alpha et Omega 2), which eventually reconciled with Mathers. I don't have info stating explicity that she ran the Isis-Urania temple before the split, but it makes sense considering she led the revolt. I don't recall seeing anything on Budge but I'm following this thread with avid interest. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Navitae Area: Thelema To: Kevin Bold 22 Aug 94 11:44:08 Subject: Re: Will the Real O.T.O. Please Stand Up?UpdReq Na> I don't share the court's view at all (they are not in a position Na> to be able to judge Thelemic matters), but I look at it from the Na> viewpoint that the Caliphate OTO has thrived (while to other OTO Na> groups are pretty decimated) and have therefore proven Na> themsevles. KB> They weren't trying to judge a "thelemic" matter. They were trying to KB> prove who had the better _legal_ claim to the name Ordo Templi KB> Orientis, not who was the more sincere Thelemite, nor the rights of KB> non-O.T.O. members to start their own Thelemic organizations. KB> Suppose a group of friends decided to call themselves "The Roman KB> Catholic Church" and elected a leader whom they call "The Pope". As KB> long as they do this as a joke, no one will care much, but if they KB> decide to publish material that regularly libels John Paul II, KB> disputes his claim to the papacy, etc, and caused some real damage to KB> the Church or confusion within the Catholic community, then the "real" KB> Catholic Church would have every right to sue them. This would be a KB> _legal_ matter, not a "spiritual" one. KB> I hope this cleared things up. Er, umm. Well, I think you missed my point though in an odd way we're saying the same thing. I didn't say the court was trying to judge a Thelemic matter, but that they are not "able" to do so. It's outside of their domain. The point I'm making is that the court's approval don't mean squat in Thelemic terms. Even if the court had gone against the Caliphate OTO I'd still support them and their authority to the Order as well as to publish (oddly enough, this is the position that the SOTO and others are taking since they continue to publish regardless of the law). 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Navitae Area: Thelema To: Paul Hume 22 Aug 94 11:56:30 Subject: Re: Archives & History UpdReq N> I don't remember the name of the temple, but it met N> in the British Museum. KB> I believe it was Isis-Urania. PH> Nope, whether there was a Budge branch or not, it wasn't Isis-Urania, PH> which was the "main" London temple, and whose peregrinations are PH> pretty thoroughly documented in things like Gilbert's Golden Dawn PH> Companion. PH> (Isis-Urania was under the direction of Annie Horniman and, later I PH> think,Florence Farr, before the revolt of the adepts in 1900). PH> Paul This is what I've got on Florence Farr and Annie Horniman: 1897, Florence Farr (D. 4/29/1917) established the Sphere in London (based on the G.'.D.'.). 3/13/1900, Florence Farr was expelled by Mathers. 3/29/1900, The original G.'.D.'. went through a period of severe dissent when a revolt was led by Ms. Annie Horniman against Mathers. Several different groups were started. One Group remained under Mathers authority. When he died, Moina Mathers took over and established the Alpha et Omega 3 Temple in 1919. J.W. Brodie-Innes formed a second temple (Alpha et Omega 2), which eventually reconciled with Mathers. I don't have info stating explicity that she ran the Isis-Urania temple before the split, but it makes sense considering she led the revolt. I don't recall seeing anything on Budge but I'm following this thread with avid interest. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Navitae Area: Thelema To: Kevin Bold 22 Aug 94 10:18:04 Subject: Re: More books... UpdReq N> The court transcripts are digitized and undoubtedly floating N> around the nets somewhere. KB> Well, how about some file names to help me track them down? Or, if KB> you already have them, how about a maildrop/PO box where I can send a KB> blank disk and SASE? I had them, I lost them. Tony's putting them back up I guess. Actually, I didn't get the 1980 (Motta vs Weiser) trials, only the 1985 ones but the 1980 ones were apparently a load of crap anyways since Motta lied through his teeth. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Navitae Area: Thelema To: Christeos Pir 22 Aug 94 10:23:00 Subject: Re: More books... UpdReq CP> I'm going to go a step further into heresy (oh, no, it'll earn me an CP> honorary Tyagihood!) and say that based on the evidence I've seen so CP> far (and granted it's not a lot), Crowley himself probably lied about CP> being named as successor. Given the relations between Reuss and him CP> before Reuss' death, and given the last known letter from Reuss to AC CP> was pretty vicious, and given the fact that it seems reasonable to CP> think that if there had been a letter naming him as successor AC CP> would have taken some care to preserve it instead of offhandedly CP> mentioning that it existed but had somehow gotten lost, and finally, CP> given that truth was merely a tool to be used when needed as far as he CP> was concerned, it's my _opinion_ that he most likely usurped the CP> position. CP> NOT THAT IT MATTERS. Without Crowley, the OTO would have just been CP> another shortlived curiousity. Excellent stuff! Just the sort of heresy I thrive on. Thanx for the pointer, I'm going to look into it. Na> The Caliphate OTO has earned the right to run the organization Na> and distribute the materials by virtue of it's work. CP> I agree. Without Grady, the OTO would have been just a slightly less CP> shortlived curiosity! Furthermore, the whole question of CP> succession and lineage is vastly overrated in my opinion. "By their CP> fruits..." one might say, or "Let success be thy proof" or as I've CP> been known to say, "The proof of the pudding is in whether it puts CP> pounds on your waistline." I couldn't have said it better. You should do publicity work ;) CP> It think it's pretty clear (it is to me, anyway) that the Caliphate CP> is the heir to the Crowley-era OTO. This doesn't mean that other CP> versions aren't valid for their adherents, but that they are CP> _different_ orders. Whether they have a lineage going back to Hugues CP> de Payens is, IMO, a silly question. If we took that view, there CP> hasn't been a proper monarch in England since the First Millenium CE. Yeah, the pre-Crowley stuff is really fascinating to me but I'm not sure that too many hard-core OTO types much care considering it's a New Aeon and all... One of my teachers told me to toss all the pre-1904 stuff I've accumulated and this does seem to be the direction A.C. was going in (rewriting the rituals etc). 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Richard Waddington Area: Thelema To: All 28 Aug 94 19:04:40 Subject: Aiwass Oasis UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. Greetings to all Thelemites! This is to inform you that the Oasis of Aiwass has just moved into your area. We are seeking earnest initiates and aspirants to communicate and be a part of a local OTO body. Please feel free to contact us at: (209) 668-0910 and leave a message. We will reply as soon as possible. Love is the law, Love under Will. Frater Arania & Soror Enchantra. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Navitae Area: Thelema To: Jaq 24 Aug 94 08:10:24 Subject: Re: More books... UpdReq N> however I do think there are other branches which have a (lesser) N> degree of legitimacy such as Bertiaux's OTOA. I'm not sure how N> they should be qualified though. In the case of the OTOA it Ja> I think Bertiaux is garbage. I once had his Voudon Gnostic Workbook Ja> and it was totally useless. Personally, I found it to be one of the most profound and powerful magick books I've ever read. It's a bit like graduate level math though: it takes work. Ja> Besides most references I can remember were Ja> putting down Crowley. Not that I recall. Bertiaux has complaints about A.C. as does just about anyone with brains, but he also incorporates a lot of Thelema in his stuff. Ja> Of course this is all ny opinion.... Granted. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718