From: Fir Area: Thelema To: Christeos Pir 9 Aug 94 18:46:02 Subject: Ra Ra Ra! UpdReq 93 CP! CP> - The Ancient Egyptian Book of the Dead, transl. & ed. by R.O. Got a publisher, publication date, and ISBN? Thanks! 93 93/93 Fir 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Grendel Grettisson Area: Thelema To: All 11 Aug 94 00:45:02 Subject: Aegypt UpdReq _Aegypt_ by John Crowley, I noticed today, has been reissued. I saw a trade paperback with a new cover down at the local Borders store today. Wassail, Grendel Grettisson Internet:mimir@io.com 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kevin Bold Area: Thelema To: Fir 10 Aug 94 09:35:24 Subject: Archives & History UpdReq 93! F> Also do you believe that Budge was in the GD, thus influencing the F> emphasis on the Egyptian pantheon? As far as I can tell, Budge was at least a nominal Christian. If he had been in the GD, it would probably have been common knowledge by now. Additionally, there were lots of people who were very interested in ancient Egypt and Egyptology long before the GD was founded (Napoleon & Champollion, for examples). F> Also (aren't I greedy) a friend has been doing a lot of research on the F> elements and the last time I discussed this with her, she couldn't find F> any reference to the placement of the elements the GD uses prior to the F> GD. i.e. Air-East, Fire-South, Water-West, and Earth-North. Have you F> seen any pre-GD material that uses this placement of the elements? I for one haven't. At least one pre-GD text (_The Tibetan Book of the Dead_) has Earth-East, Water-South, Fire-West, and Air-North, and yes, the colors are somewhat different, too. 93--93/93... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kevin Bold Area: Thelema To: Gnb 11 Aug 94 07:19:02 Subject: Sepher Yetzirah UpdReq 93! G> Sounds like it's a reworking (translation?) of the Sefer Yetzirah and G> the 32 paths of wisdom. Westcott translated from a 17th centuy Latin G> translation from Hebrew, as far as I know. the '32 Paths' aren't G> actually part of Sefer Yetzirah - but were included in the Latin and G> then propagated through the retranslations. I have two versions of _Sepher Yetzirah_. One is a very slender paperback (Wescott's translation w/ additional notes from HPB's _The Secret Doctrine_), and the other is _The Fundamentals of Jewish Mysticism: The Book of Creation and Its Commentaries_ by Leonard R. Glotzer (one of the reasons why I joined the Jewish Book Club). The first book has _The Thirty Two Paths of Wisdom_ following _SY_ Ch. 6, and credits it to Joannes Stephanus Rittangelius, stating it was originally in Hebrew and published (written?) in 1642. I have yet to find any mention of this additional text in the second book. _Sepher Yetzirah_ does, however, mention the letters as well as the sephiroth, beginning with Chapter 3. 93--93/93... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kevin Bold Area: Thelema To: Navitae 11 Aug 94 07:32:10 Subject: Re: Archives & History UpdReq 93! Gn> In any event, it is as likely that the material shares a common Gn> source - and the Golden Dawn is far from the origin. Gnb's knack for understatement is amazing ;) N> However, a lot of stuff these days has it's roots in the GD, N> though the GD has roots in older stuff. In other words; people N> may not be bothering to go back to the sources and instead they N> simply stop with the GD (technically, the GD is not the origin, N> but in a pragmatic sense it plays that role). That's one reason why I like to read what Donald Kraig calls the "Kosher" Qabalah. If there's anyone out there who'd like to know more about one of my favorite sources on it (i.e., the Jewish Book Club), write me at 4885-A McKnight Road # 247, Pittsburgh PA 15237, and I'll send you one of their catalogues. 93--93/93... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Julia Phillips Area: Thelema To: P.R. 11 Aug 94 21:56:20 Subject: Web of Wyrd Rec'd UpdReq Hello P.R.! 29 Jul 94 23:38, P.R. wrote to Julia Phillips: PR> I would like a copy PR> Ramon Negron No worries, Ramon. I'll post a copy off to you next week. PR> Let me know how to repay you. No need. This echo provided a lot of the input, so it's only fair to give something back :) B*B Julia 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Julia Phillips Area: Thelema To: Jonathon Blake 11 Aug 94 21:58:52 Subject: Leos?!? UpdReq Hello Jonathon! 25 Jul 94 02:32, Jonathon Blake wrote to Julia Phillips: JP>> I bet you're a Capricorn. JB> no. Oh well. JB> i'm just tired of all the leo's on this conference. When a man is tired of Leo is tired of life (with apologies to Johnson ) JB> there is one leo here that i'm not tired of. You do realise that with the Leo ego, we will *all* assume that we are the favoured lion? B*B Julia 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Julia Phillips Area: Thelema To: Jonathon Blake 11 Aug 94 22:01:48 Subject: Web of Wyrd UpdReq Hello Jonathon! 31 Jul 94 05:28, Jonathon Blake wrote to Julia Phillips: JB> send a copy for me to Will do - I'll post it next week. B*B Julia 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Julia Phillips Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 11 Aug 94 22:03:56 Subject: Salutation of the moon? UpdReq Hello Josh! 01 Aug 94 16:57, Josh Norton wrote to Julia Phillips: JN> From my own experience, the Saturn-Binah connection is definitely JN> appropriate, and not too far off from your speculations. The JN> early stages of the Binah initiation are all Saturn-like in JN> nature, having to do with completion, endings, fitting things JN> into a single structure, etc. Also for me, the idea of limitation existing, in order that we can go beyond it. Both physically and psychically, I see Saturn as a symbol of the knowable, and therefore going beyond Saturn as reaching into the unknown. JN> The problem I have with Saturn as the ONLY planetary ruler of JN> Binah is that in the later stages (constituting roughly JN> two-thirds of my still- evolving experience of that sphere) the JN> Saturn element becomes secondary, and other factors come to the JN> fore. Saturn is still there, but simply as a shell or skin JN> surrounding the finite levels of existence. What becomes of JN> primary importance is the way in which the transcendental aspects JN> of being act upon and within the finite aspects, the way in which JN> the finite is formed out of the infinite and supported by it. I like the way you express this.. and sorry for quoting so much :-} JN> In these later views, the symbolism of the Mother is much more JN> important. The whole of finite existence becomes like a growing JN> foetus in the womb, surrounded by the amnion of the Great Sea, JN> receiving all its real support and nourishment from an infinitely JN> more complex and developed world outside itself. For me, the JN> Earth seems a more appropriate planetary symbol for these stages. I definitely click with the sea image here... hard to put this into words, but I perceive Binah as (in itself) the "sterile" mother, but containing all that which is necessary to bring forth life. The bright fertile mother aspect seems to me to come into manifestation at Malkuth, once the influences of the other spheres have come into play. But, the bright mother I believe is within Binah, just as the dark sterile mother is within Malkuth. Well, that's the best I can do to explain what I mean... I hope you're intuition is working :) JN> I wonder if this was what the G.D. was getting at with it's AMA JN> and AIMA, the dark sterile mother and the bright fertile mother? JN> Saturn seems to me to work best with the cold, abstract, JN> structural aspects of Binah, while Earth connects better with the JN> immediacy, energy, and livingness with which Binah supports the JN> lower spheres. Seems possible... JN> And why not use both? In Alice Bailey's cosmology, both Saturn JN> and Earth are supposed to be expressing different aspects of the JN> same cosmic "ray"; their essence is the same even though their JN> expressions of it are different. Switch from one to the other as JN> appropriate. I think we do use both: in fact, although I partition the universe into neat little pieces to examine and explore it, in my cosmology, none of it is really separate from the rest. Seems to me that most of us do that, even though maybe unconsciously at times. B*B Julia 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Julia Phillips Area: Thelema To: Christeos Pir 11 Aug 94 22:12:08 Subject: Salutation of the moon? UpdReq Hello Christeos! 01 Aug 94 21:58, Christeos Pir wrote to Julia Phillips: The Tape... JP>> Glad it arrived safely. I'll be interested in what you think JP>> of it. CP> I liked it. The Jana Runnells was interesting. One of the members of the London coven went along to some voice/chant workshops Jana Runnells gave in London, which is how I got to hear about her in the first place. I think she has an amazing voice, and really like the Kali track. CP> Always good to CP> hear Robin Williamson -- I miss the Incredible String Band. We've used the Bloduedd tape for invocation, having previously hidden four speakers around the room, and setting it off by remote control. Hehehehehehe. CP> Exzuma was cool. Have you ever heard of them? Nearly every coven in London uses Dhambala in ritual, but no-one really seems to know anything about the group. CP> The Incubus/Succubus: it's good to hear pagan CP> rock instead of the usual Kumbaya-crap; Amen to that, brother :) CP> I wasn't crazy about the CP> same old "The nasty Xians are coming to eat your babies" lyrics, CP> though (even though I wrote our share in my day). Yup: I'm hoping it's a phase they'll grow out of, but in the meantime, I can cope with it :) Did you like Tony's artwork? CP> You already CP> know I like Yothu Yindi -- wish I could have seen them when they CP> were here! I had minor dealings with them a few years ago (before they were well-known) as a friend of mine is close friends with their manager, and asked me if I could help out with a few things. At the time, I worked for the Australian Tourist Commission, so it was all in a day's work :) The album I took the track from is called Homeland Movement, which has some tracks I really like, but others which I find a bit monotonous. What about Peter Gabriel? Are you being tactful in leaving him out? JP>> All gold gratefully received :) CP> Settle for pyrites? 'Spose. CP> Happy birthday, BTW! And many happy solar returns to you and Alma (and just about everyone else in this echo - LOL!) CP> We live to serve. ;-) That's not the rumour I heard ;-) B*B Julia 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Julia Phillips Area: Thelema To: Kayla Block 11 Aug 94 22:19:36 Subject: Eric Ericson UpdReq Hello Kayla! 03 Aug 94 16:59, Kayla Block wrote to Julia Phillips: JP>> Dunno :) I only know him as the author of a couple (at JP>> least) of novels, which are decidedly Thelemic in JP>> flavour. I've always assumed Eric Ericson to be a KB> uh, doesn't sound like the same person. though i would be KB> interested in hearing more about the person you're referring to. KB> any titles that you would specifically suggest? I have two novels: Master of the Temple and The Sorcerer. The writer is either a Thelemite, or has done some pretty extensive research. I think he is more likely to be a practising magician than researcher though. The book doesn't read like it was written by someone who is just reporting things he's read. B*B Julia 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Julia Phillips Area: Thelema To: Tony Iannotti 11 Aug 94 22:25:10 Subject: Web of Wyrd UpdReq Hello Tony! 03 Aug 94 11:07, Tony Iannotti wrote to Julia Phillips: JP>> It's on me... the main feature wouldn't exist without this JP>> echo, so it's the least I can do :) TI> Bless you madly! I look forward to it! Hope it lives up to your expectations :-} I'll post it off tomorrow (Aug 12). TI> ... Necrotelecomnicon: Book of Dead phone Numbers Love it! Stolen :) B*B Julia 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Julia Phillips Area: Thelema To: Rose Dawn 11 Aug 94 22:31:02 Subject: LIFE, THE UNIVERSE, AND... UpdReq Hello Rose! 04 Aug 94 09:17, Rose Dawn wrote to Julia Phillips: RD> Sounds like an ideal situation for group learning in a heap thang>. Do you find that the scattered people tend to RD> parallel one another in their personal work, rather than going RD> off in very diverse directions, due to the early bond, or not? To a certain extent, but the group was a bit polarised between those with a strong CM leaning, and those with a more Gardnerian Wicca leaning. That polarisation has continued, with the CM-style ones seeing each regularly even now, and teaching others their own version of what they learned from us. The Gardnerian type ones don't see the others very much, but when they do get together, they all get along really well. RD> Do *you* still feel a bond with them, like a RD> parent with adult children kinda thing? Yup, definitely a bond, though not a parent-type of thing. We always tried very hard to make the group one of equals, so even though we did most of the magical teaching, there was no hierarchy as such. It's more a brother/sister kind of relationship, I suppose. RD> Many years ago, I founded a group with a young man who had no RD> more idea what the hell he was doing than I did ;> and it's one RD> of the most successful ventures I ever undertook...they're still RD> going strong, with a whole new set of regulars, and hardly a one RD> has any idea who I or my 'co-founder' is. We've talked about this before... I think it's wonderful that it's still going so well. RD> I get the most RD> incredible sense of satisfaction from that! Much more than if RD> there was any sense of hero-worship going on-- I know exactly what you mean :) >> The Open Group in Sydney drove me nuts, because people who >> were not really committed, just sort of interested, were in >> the majority, and it became very superficial. Although there >> was a core group of about 15 regulars, there was another 5-10 >> who dropped in and out, so we could never really do anything >> long-term, or very deep. RD> No doubt most 'open groups' have similar problems. Not 'problems' RD> exactly, but I'm sure you know what I mean! Too bad, too, cuz I RD> think open groups serve a valuable purpose--I'd hate to see RD> sincere people get discouraged because they can't find anything RD> that isn't closed to non-initiates . I agree, but have come to terms with the fact that it's not my style to run an open group. Someone else can have a go ;-) >> Not that structured :) I believe a magical training should be >> gained mainly in practice, fleshed out by theory. In my >> idiosyncratic universe, real magical experiences count for >> more than other people's experiences which can be read about >> in books. I don't knock the value of books, but I think the >> actual experience teaches far more. RD> I agree for the most part--but I think that it's possible to read RD> something and 'get' it, and also to practice by rote without RD> *ever* getting it. For those who do, practice will natch deepen RD> the understanding...unfortunately, sometimes those who don't, RD> won't. If ya know what I mean--LOL! I do indeed :) By "real magical experience" though I don't mean the "do it by rote" kind of thing, but the real "wham you between the eyes" experience, which may or may not come about during cermonial ritual :) I read all the time, and I think I get a lot out of books, but even so, if push came to shove, I'd still go on intuition and experience. But I don't think we disagree on this :) >> I still make sure that members of our coven are able to >> perform a creditable lesser banishing ritual, even if they >> have no interest in ceremonial magic per se, because I hate >> sloppy ritual . RD> I'm a Wicca-dunce...how do witches without any C.M. inclination RD> banish? just a 'close the circle' kinda thang? Depends on the group, really. The traditional Gardnerian or Alexandrian style would be to banish the quarters, and then usually, just cut a gateway in the circle. Gardnerians have a blessing that always ends the circle, but that's about it. Some people would banish the quarters using banishing elemental pentagrams, some using banishing earth pentagrams, and others just point in the general direction of the quarter :) RD> The Wiccans or RD> Wiccan-flavored people I've met personally all seem to have some RD> variation on the LBRP that they use regularly--is that more a RD> 'local' thing than a semi-universal? In my experience, only Wiccans with a CM interest or background use the LBRP. I wrote a Pagan version of it for use by folks in the Open Group, which seemed to work very well for them. I prefer the original, but the Pagan one has its uses. RD> I know exactly what you mean! Should I be worried? };D Probably :) >> Erm.... I've never actually read it :-} Most >> of our rituals come from the Hermetic system, or out of my >> head :) RD> I dug the book--even if one didn't use any of D&P's Rites, RD> there's so much good info in there, it was *well* worth the RD> price, IMO. :> I'll add it to the list of things to do, then :) RD> listening to rock/metal, with nothing to eat or drink selling cups of *water* for two bucks--not allowed to bring RD> ANYthing into the grounds with you--boy, do they ever rip ya!>, WHAT! That's obscene! RD> and then three hours sitting in my car trying to get out of the RD> parking lot--Happy! Happy! Joy! Joy! ;> I remember days like that, in Britain :) One of the benefits of Oz is having its small population. I mean, Sydney is the largest, most metropolis-type city in Oz, and it just creeps over 6 million people :) Apparently in size Sydney is bigger than LA, but I don't know about that. RD> Aside: I finally remembered to ask about the Requiem and was RD> greeted with loud laughter and the remark "I know why you RD> asked--I read the Thelema echo too." :/ Talk about an RD> ego-buster, LOL! Temple of the Dog with him {louder sob!}.> Ahem...let's see, what RD> else... Cross your legs and hold your breath for ten days? >> Probably got heaps of Scorpio in her chart :) RD> I've been practicing doing charts--I really, really, REALLY need RD> the practice, I'm a complete astro-dunce--and by my calculations RD> ;> she's got Mars, Jupiter, and Uranus in Scorpio, Taurus Moon. That makes sense.... nice having a Taurus Moon. I have that (in fact, it's my only earth), and it does give strength and stability in that area. RD> Hmm, hmm, hmm! ;> I'm probably wrong though, I was never any RD> good at math, and I don't have a computer program to calculate RD> for me. :/ Well, I was taught that you should erect the chart by hand anyway, because that way, you start to get a "feel" for it, even before the interpretation begins. I must admit I thought it was teacher-bullshit, but it does seem to work that way. You could probably download an astro programme from the BBS though, if you wanted one. They're not that rare :) B*B Julia 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Julia Phillips Area: Thelema To: The Pict 11 Aug 94 22:50:00 Subject: Pict in Oz UpdReq Hello Rhea! 05 Aug 94 21:24, The Pict wrote to Julia Phillips: TP> Arrive Sydney Thursday 6 October in the evening - Depart Tuesday TP> 18th back to Seattle ... got ticket today :) Excellent! Just you, or is Raven coming over as well? I'll book some holiday from work... I think we'll need it :) TP> Family visit - and staying with B & A part of the time. You're most welcome to stay here, as well. TP> Extraplanal entities make eccentric travel consultants. Would they be Qantas planals or United planals? TP> Looking forward to seeing you both. We're looking forward to seeing you as well, and I *WILL* phone you soon: promise! It has been *frantic* here, with so much going on, I haven't had time to breath. The latest Web is on its way to you... how's the comic? B*B Julia 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Julia Phillips Area: Thelema To: Paul Hume 11 Aug 94 22:54:50 Subject: You :) UpdReq Hello Paul! Can you let me have your address, as I copied the amended pages of the Casaubon about four weeks ago, and I have your copy of Web of Wyrd to send you as well. Many thanks :) B*B Julia 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Navitae Area: Thelema To: Kevin Bold 7 Aug 94 10:52:20 Subject: Re: More books... UpdReq KB> Could be. While Motta had never been a member KB> of the OTO, he was an KB> A:.A:. initiate under Karl Germer. N> Yes, he was a member of the OTO. This is very clear from N> correspondence with Germer. What was in contention was whether N> or not he had the right to run the OTO, not his membership in it. KB> Actually, there is contention regarding both. I suggest you try to KB> get some back issues of the Thelema Lodge Calendar. They run a column KB> called "Primary Sources". Yes, I've read the TLC but I prefer the court transcripts. The case was to determine who had the rights to the OTO and the materials related to it. Motta's membership was relevent only in regards to that (though he would have lost the case regardless of his membership). KB> Motta became Germer's student _after_ KB> Germer put the kabosh on new OTO initiates. Not true. First off, Germer limited new initiations in regards to the Agape Lodge because he was unhappy with them (by their own admission), but he did allow some growth elsewhere (though slowed by his requirement that members also be A.'.A.'. students, amongst other things). Second, Motta became Germer's student in 1953, well before the Agape Lodge vs Germer problems. Third, (as I already noted) the correspondence between Germer and Motta make it very clear he was an OTO member. N> I don't believe they are meant to be seperate (in the full N> sense of the term), but that gets a bit complicated. One N> way to view it: what's the body without the heart? KB> One can be an OTO initiate without being in the AA, and vice versa. KB> And if one is both, one can be an AA probationer while being a IXo OTO KB> member, or a Minerval while being an AA 8=3. At least in theory... KB> 93--93/93... Yes, but you're missing my point. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Navitae Area: Thelema To: Tony Iannotti 7 Aug 94 11:02:10 Subject: Re: More books... UpdReq TI> Yes, I knew about the rewrite. I am not sure if I have copies of TI> them or not. Tell me about the other branches? I only knew about the TI> David B. branch, the one in Washington, and Australia, all of whom I TI> assumed were working together? No way. 8/26/1987, Marcelo Motta died. He did not nominate a successor but left a Deed of Trust for three members; William Barden, Claudia Canuto, and Ben Stone to do so. They did not. There was a vote among the remaning X degree members, Ray Earles and David Berrson were elected to run the SOTO jointly. Motta generated the following lineages; A. 9/12/1977, David Bersson was given a charter, he runs the SOTO in New Mexico. He is also a leading member of the A.'.A.'.. Ray Earles runs the A.'.A.'. and SOTO in Tennessee. B. Paul Manini runs a Brazialian SOTO. C. William Barden runs an Austrailian SOTO. There may very well be other groups I don't know of, any info you have would be most appreciated. TI> Is it one of the others you know to TI> have the copies of the originals? (strange phrase, TI> copies of the originals, seems a bit redundant..... Bersson's group. I know a little about Barden, but only from a bunch of stuff he sent me in the mail which was essentially advertisements. I don't have a clue about Manini except that he doesn't seem to want anything to do with anyone but his own lodge. Na> Hmm, their claim to the OTO is arguably not legit from a number Na> of viewpoints, but I think the most important is Thelemic. "As Na> brothers fight ye"...they fought, they lost. 'Nuff said. TI> I don't know about that. I don't always share consensual reality TI> with U.S. Courts. I happen to agree with it in this case, TI> however...... ;-) Strange how the shoe keeps moving to the other foot. I don't share the court's view at all (they are not in a position to be able to judge Thelemic matters), but I look at it from the viewpoint that the Caliphate OTO has thrived (while to other OTO groups are pretty decimated) and have therefore proven themsevles. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Navitae Area: Thelema To: Tony Iannotti 7 Aug 94 10:49:46 Subject: Re: More books... UpdReq Na> Yes, he was a member of the OTO. This is very clear from Na> correspondence with Germer. What was in contention was whether Na> or not he had the right to run the OTO, not his membership in it. TI> I think you are mistaken. What in Motta's correspondance with TI> Germer indicates that he was a member of OTO? I've certainly missed TI> it. 1. Germer offered a Charter for a Lodge to Motta (first three degrees). Only a member of the OTO can run an OTO Lodge. 2. Germer stated that he'd given Motta most of the rituals and asked what he was missing. 3. Germer and Motta exchanged correspondence about the 9th, indicating that Motta must have had it already. 4. Sasha Germer stated that Karl Germer was grooming Motta to take over the OTO in about ten years (this was just before he died). Could a non-OTO member have run the order? Na> I don't believe they are meant to be seperate (in the full sense Na> of the term), but that gets a bit complicated. One way to view Na> it: what's the body without the heart? TI> What are the muscles without the heart might be more accurate. They TI> are interelated, but not identical, although the heart is made of TI> muscle. Er, umm. OK, I think I understand you. My analogy is that the OTO functions as the vehicle for Thelema to expand in the world, while the A.'.A.'. is the spirtual heart. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Navitae Area: Thelema To: Ar Aakhu-t 7 Aug 94 11:07:26 Subject: Re: More books... UpdReq NN> Yes, he was a member of the OTO. This is very clear from NN> correspondence with Germer. What was in contention was whether NN> or not he had the right to run the OTO, not his membership in NN> it. AA> I've never heard this before. I doesn't surprise me. You have to have you're feet planted pretty far apart to get the whole story. AA> Do we have evidence of the date of his initiation, etc? Motta refused to give his documents to the courts as it would break his oaths to the Order. I don't know the date of his initition off-hand. AA> As far as the correspondence, did Germer say AA> he was O.T.O., or did Motta say it? Germer and Motta. AA> I know that Germer thought Motta AA> was at times as nuts as Crowley thought Germer sometimes was. They all were. AA> Perhaps Tony can provide us with details here from his experience of AA> the records. But it seem to me I've heard (from Bill Heidrick, maybe) AA> that the extent of Motta's O.T.O. connection was that as Germer's A.A. AA> student and successor, he felt he should run O.T.O. as well, but the AA> lineage never officially passed to him. It didn't officially pass to anyone. Except perhaps Metzger (Sasha said it did, Metzger claimed that it did though it's not been proven, and Metzger had the only legit functional Lodge going when Germer died). McMurtry re-started the OTO using documents from A.C. as entitlement to do so in case of an emergency. AA> If any O.T.O. connection with Motta -had- existed, it AA> certainly would have come out in the course of the trial, It did, it's in the transcripts. Although the courts concluded (amongst other things) that Motta was not a member, they did so in blantant disregard to the evidense presented in the case. I suspect it was because Motta had perjured himself in order to win the first court case as well as making something of a fool of himself in the second one. He also had a hell of a lot of ammo aimed against him (McMurtry, Regardie etc). AA> because Motta would have been the first to bring it up. AA> Anyone know the details of the trial? Yup. KB> Additionally, keep in mind that OTO and A:.A:. are two KB> separate entities; the former is rooted in KB> Freemasonry/Martinism, the latter a revamped Order of the KB> Golden Dawn. The only thing they have in common is Thelema. I strongly disagree. NN> I don't believe they are meant to be seperate (in the full NN> sense NN> of the term), but that gets a bit complicated. One way to view NN> it: what's the body without the heart? AA> I think this is a very crucial point; certainly one Crowley AA> insisted upon: A.'.A.'. and O.T.O. have -no- formal connection, though AA> they are in close alliance. Even if all the administrating officers of AA> O.T.O. were A.'.A.'. members (I'm not saying one way or another here) AA> that's not the same as having it explicitly run by A.'.A.'. authority. If they haven't (at the least) found their True Will... AA> By the same token, if all the bankers in town are Freemasons, that's AA> not the same as saying Freemasonry is in charge of the banks. AA> Magically speaking, the consequences of publicly announcing that your AA> Order is an A.'.A.'. outer college are pretty strong. For better or AA> worse, it puts quite a spin on the situation. This is one major AA> difference between O.T.O. and C.O.T. & T.O.T., I can feel the AA> difference pretty strongly, aside from all the other differences. Here's a start: most of A.C.'s work is under the A.'.A.'., but it's the responsibility of the OTO to publish them. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Frater H.A.C.A. Area: Thelema To: Ar Aakhu-t 12 Aug 94 16:23:38 Subject: More books... UpdReq Hi, Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. If you don't mind me butting in: AA> Magically speaking, the consequences of publicly announcing AA> that your Order is an A.'.A.'. outer college are AA> pretty strong. For better or worse, it puts quite AA> a spin on the situation. This is one major AA> difference between O.T.O. and C.O.T. & T.O.T., I AA> can feel the difference pretty strongly, aside AA> from all the other differences. You quote "I can feel the difference pretty strongly" is pretty interesting. I'm not a C.O.T. or T.O.T. member but I'm curious what you are referring to. Later! Love is the law, love under will. In Thelema, Frater H.A.C.A. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: Navitae 11 Aug 94 11:39:20 Subject: Re: Archives & History UpdReq -=> Navitae sent a message to Christeos Pir on 04 Aug 94 20:29:20 <=- -=> Re: Re: Archives & History <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Na> Er, well I've been in Canada for a few years now Sorry to hear that! So, IOW, you don't know offhand of any published versions of the M&M material, correct? BTW, if you posted the Motta/Germer material relating to Motta's being in the OTO, it never made it down here. I'd be interested in seeing it. Also, do you know anything about Regardie being an initiate of the IXo? Sir David claims, apparently solely on the basis of one postcard from AC in which he greets IR with the "T.'.I.'.T.'.H.'.T.'.I.'.", that IR must ergo have been a IXo -- this despite a complete lack of any paperwork, according to Bro. Tony. Not an issue, just curious. ("Inquiring minds," and all that.) Love is the law, love under will. - V - ... Babalon the Mother of Abominations, the bride of Chaos, 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: Kevin Bold 11 Aug 94 11:41:32 Subject: Re: More books... UpdReq -=> Kevin Bold sent a message to Navitae on 08 Aug 94 10:40:52 <=- -=> Re: Re: More books... <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. KB> One minute he'd be explaining beautifully an obscure (at least for me) KB> passage, and then suddenly he'd start ripping on Kenneth Grant or KB> Israel Regardie. I reached the point where I didn't care if he had KB> the best claim -- I wanted him to lose just for being a jerk! Rilly. Have you read "The Commentaries of AL"? Sometimes his insights are valuable, sometimes they amount to an assinine swipe at one of AC's commentaries. Love is the law, love under will. - V - ... They have said, "Stoop down unto the darkly splendid world, & be wed." 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718