From: Andrew Haigh Area: Thelema To: Navitae 6 Aug 94 01:26:44 Subject: Re: Archives & History UpdReq -=> Quoting Navitae to Tony Iannotti <=- N> Na> Sure. I'll try to get it up soon. Hmmm, I'll have to do a unix Na> convert thing on it, hopefully it won't choke. TI> TI> What system are you on now? Maybe we can just transfer it via Fido TI> and be done with it? If your sysop is willing, he can crash the file TI> to my board, or I can freq it if he puts it in a secure place. N> Sorry, I've been busy with finals and neglecting this. The N> system I'm on is through a university in regards the internet. N> I'm not sure about the Fido thing, I'm doing that through OASIS N> BBS and I can check into it. No problem from here Navitae. I just can't afford to do it too often (budget limitations are harder to transcend than any other :( ). Just let me know when you want to upload and crashmail the file and I will be by the terminal to make sure it doesn't fall into the wrong hands :) Andrew Haigh Sysop-The OASIS BBS @:|---- 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Andrew Haigh Area: Thelema To: Navitae 6 Aug 94 08:03:50 Subject: Re: Archives & History UpdReq N> Good point. The Masonic response to this (as I'm sure you've N> already read) is that the ceremonies (etc) are not done with N> magical intent (ie not trying to cause changes in the usual N> magical sense). I have to defer to their opinion in this as it's N> their organization (even though I think you may be right). N> Cretainly the Masonic legacy has spurred a huge amount of magical N> interest over the centuries. You find as much magick in a rite as your are looking for. I find that the symbolism inherent in the 3rd degree `Raising' holds a great deal of magickal potential. There are so many different ways that one can interpret this rite and so many possible effects that can come from each interpretation. I know that a great deal of current Masons do not think this way, but it might be what it takes to revitalize the Lodge (avg. age in BC 70 and climbing ) N> Oh, they already open their doors to OTO members (I've read of N> New York Lodges allowing people to use Liber AL in the N> initiations) but as far as some kind of cross-recognition of the N> degrees...that seems real unlikely to me. Again, they argue that N> the intent of the OTO and themselves are quite different. You can use any book you like as your Holy Book of the Law provided that you find the book important enough to swear the oaths by and the Master of the Lodge you are joining agrees to your using that book. There are Lodges that are opened with the Koran, the Bible, the `Gita, all open on the alter at the same time. It depends on the Lodge and the beliefs of the members. I like the idea of using a laptop as the HBL with open windows containing each Holy Book slowly scrolling through the text of each one like a tibetan prayer drum, all over a colour-cycling background of the Mandelbrot set. This in combination with replacing the bulbs in the three lights in the Lodge with candles would make for a most impressive effect and shed a unique tone over the entire proceedings. As far as the claim that Masonry and the OTO's intent are diffeent, some may think so, but I don't. What we have are two Orders aligned along simlar paths, the ultimate destination of each being the enlightenment of the person walking the path. The main differences being the symbolism of the myth of the first three degrees, and the fact that the OTO initiates women while Masonry is a strictly male fraternity (this will probably change over time, but not for a while I think. Inertia can run deep). Andrew 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Grendel Grettisson Area: Thelema To: Ar Aakhu-t 6 Aug 94 22:47:00 Subject: Journals and books and lint and... UpdReq > CP> read > CP> John Crowley's _Aegypt_? Way qool stuff. > No- fiction? NF? No, it is fiction but quite good. It is hard to fine but I can show you my copy sometime. One of the basic premises is that there are a number of histories in the world that parallel the official one but which are different. The main character is tracking the idea of Egypt as the source of magic and home of the gypsies and trying to figure out where it came from and what it means. Aegypt is Egypt but it is not OUR Egypt. Quite an interesting book and not a typical novel at all. In some ways it is quite mainstream and in others it is decidely not. Wassail, Grendel Grettisson Internet:mimir@io.com 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kevin Bold Area: Thelema To: Tony Iannotti 7 Aug 94 04:38:04 Subject: M.O.T.O. Rec'd UpdReq 93! KB> Could be. While Motta had never been a member KB> of the OTO, he was an KB> A:.A:. initiate under Karl Germer. TI> Doesn't mean their version of OTO is any closer TI> to AC, though. I think TI> Jaq is just quoting some of their press releases. TI> Good point, frequently forgotten. Most masonic TI> orders involve money. I TI> don't think Motta ever understood the purpose of TI> OTO. (like I do?) But he TI> was involved with A.'.A.'., and so projected that TI> onto what he purported to TI> be the OTO. I believe I addressed the issue of Motta's spurious claims to head the OTO in a follow-up message to Jaq. 93--93/93... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kevin Bold Area: Thelema To: Navitae 7 Aug 94 04:41:30 Subject: Re: More books... UpdReq 93! KB> Could be. While Motta had never been a member KB> of the OTO, he was an KB> A:.A:. initiate under Karl Germer. N> Yes, he was a member of the OTO. This is very clear from N> correspondence with Germer. What was in contention was whether N> or not he had the right to run the OTO, not his membership in it. Actually, there is contention regarding both. I suggest you try to get some back issues of the Thelema Lodge Calendar. They run a column called "Primary Sources". Motta became Germer's student _after_ Germer put the kabosh on new OTO initiates. N> I don't believe they are meant to be seperate (in the full sense N> of the term), but that gets a bit complicated. One way to view N> it: what's the body without the heart? One can be an OTO initiate without being in the AA, and vice versa. And if one is both, one can be an AA probationer while being a IXo OTO member, or a Minerval while being an AA 8=3. At least in theory... 93--93/93... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kevin Bold Area: Thelema To: Ar Aakhu-t 4 Aug 94 09:52:38 Subject: An old friend UpdReq 93! AA> An old acquaintance of yours sends greetings- AA> went by the handle "moonchild" at one time... Never met him or his lady, but he used to be a co-sysop here at Wayfarer's Inn. Naturally, we all send our best. 93--93/93... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718