From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: Jaq 1 Aug 94 21:44:32 Subject: Re: More books... UpdReq -=> Jaq sent a message to Christeos Pir on 29 Jul 94 10:22:29 <=- -=> Re: Re: More books... <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Ja> David Bersson is to the best of my knowledge leader to Society Ja> Ordo Templi Orientis and its version of the A:.A:. . Ah... I had heard the Motta A.'.A.'. reference, and was wondering if there was a SOTO connection. Thanks for the info. Ja> This is the group Ja> which lost Ja> in court in california the rights to call themselves OTO. Oh, I know who they are. [Insert emoticon of rolling eyes and grinning] Ja> I checked them out and they seem to be MORE Ja> consistent with the original A:.A:. and OTO as established by Crowley. Based on what? (By their fruits...) I understand that there's said to be no conflict between the various A.'.A.'. bodies with proper lineage. I want nothing to do with SOTO, however, based on my own and others' experiences. Love is the law, love under will. - CP ... Then let him sway the force of him to and fro like a satyr in silence, 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: Julia Phillips 1 Aug 94 21:58:12 Subject: Salutation of the moon? UpdReq -=> Julia Phillips sent a message to Christeos Pir on 22 Jul 94 18:51:48 <=- -=> Re: Leos?!? <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. JP> Does it seem to have any relevance for you? I haven't studied it. I just know what "my sign" is. JP> I didn't think I did, but apparently it is an aspect of my character JP> :-} Not so much for myself, but for those who are important to me. I JP> shrug off stuff directed against me, but can go ballistic if it's JP> against someone I care about, or who I'm responsible for. Ahhh... yeah, that fits alright! I just figgered it's a Leo thang. JP> Glad it arrived safely. I'll be interested in what you think of it. I liked it. The Jana Runnells was interesting. Always good to hear Robin Williamson -- I miss the Incredible String Band. Exzuma was cool. The Incubus/Succubus: it's good to hear pagan rock instead of the usual Kumbaya-crap; I wasn't crazy about the same old "The nasty Xians are coming to eat your babies" lyrics, though (even though I wrote our share in my day). You already know I like Yothu Yindi -- wish I could have seen them when they were here! JP> All gold gratefully received :) Settle for pyrites? Happy birthday, BTW! JP> Hmmmm.....excellent stuff deleted. Much to ponder here, thanks CP :) We live to serve. ;-) Love is the law, love under will. - CP ... then shalt thou be cast out into the abyss for ever; 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: Andrew Haigh 1 Aug 94 22:04:46 Subject: Archives & History UpdReq -=> Andrew Haigh sent a message to Christeos Pir on 30 Jul 94 11:03:12 <=- -=> Re: Archives & History <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. AH> For a better attempt at reconciling the Templars with the AH> Masons pick up `Born in Blood' by J. Robinson. He goes into the AH> history of the Lodge and tries to draw a connection between the AH> Templars and Freemasonry. IMHO he does a far better job at it AH> than HBHG. Oh yeah. The Robinson is pretty good, and is on my list of stuff to buy so I don't have to keep getting it out of the library. HBHG seems more like a joke, or Van Daaniken. AH> Hmm... it really shouldn't cost all that much. Initiation fees AH> around here for the Masons runs to @300$Cdn with yearly dues AH> of 75$. I'm sure that the first few degrees in the OTO are AH> rather affordable as well It's about US$175 + $75/yr, I was told. That's still a fair bit of cash. By contrast, my OTO fees this year were $20 init + $20 dues. (Goes up a bit in a year or so, though.) AH> Now all I need to do is find an extra 300$ :) There's no such thing as _extra_ money! Love is the law, love under will. - Christeos Pir Fr. Vitriol Io, O.T.O. ... the last attach more firmly to the higher. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: Ar Aakhu-t 1 Aug 94 22:15:14 Subject: Archives & History UpdReq -=> Ar Aakhu-t sent a message to Christeos Pir on 30 Jul 94 04:49:03 <=- -=> Re: Magical Recordplayer <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. AA> Well, I'd say print it ALL out, because in some sense you AA> can't tell exactly which parts are 'not valuable', certainly not at AA> the time, I think. I'd rather have a complete set. Point taken. AA> For some time I've been keeping my record on individual I have always used artist's blank books or the hardback day-a-page desk diaries, since about '74ev. I also have my notebooks going back to about '69 or '70. Miracle I haven't lost them, in all the madness over the years! But I've gotten to the point where I can type 1000% faster than I can write legibly. <-- important! AA> One time I prefer handwritten entires, however, is AA> when I'm taking notes while doing a magical operation of some kind, AA> providing it's appropriate to be scribing during, as it sometimes is. Interestingly, Josh was saying he does a lot of his scrying at the keyboard. AA> BOS= Book of Shadows, I get it. Yeah... but I bet most of the AA> real thing aren't gorgeous either. I mean, how about those AA> illustrations of spirits in Barrett's 'Magus'...? Yeah, but I've seen some beautiful books done by some people I know when setting down rituals for use. IOW, in a book which they'll use on the altar later. AA> Yeah... after HBHG, I STRONGLY recommend Eco's 'Foucault's AA> Pendulum'. Ack... another one that's been on my list for a while! Did you read John Crowley's _Aegypt_? Way qool stuff. Love is the law, love under will. - V - ... They shaped Ecstasy as a spear, and pierced the ancient dragon 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Tony Iannotti Area: Thelema To: Jaq 1 Aug 94 14:46:36 Subject: Re: More books... UpdReq -=> Quoting Jaq to Christeos Pir <=- Ja> lost in court in california the rights to call themselves OTO. It was Ja> lead by Marcelo Motta then. I checked them out and they seem to be MORE Ja> consistent with the original A:.A:. and OTO as established by Crowley. Ja> For instance I know that no money is involved(to the best of my Ja> knowledge). If any one wants their address leave me a message, I think Ja> the one I have is still current. Thanks, I wouldn't mind it. Though I don't see how the fact that money is not involved with their OTO makes it MORE consistent with AC's OTO. AC got money all the time from the Agape Lodge in Pasadena. The Caliphate OTO has dunning notices from the First World War. `~~~ PGPBLUE 2.0 ... I don't mind straight, but narrow bugs me. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Julia Phillips Area: Thelema To: Tony Iannotti 1 Aug 94 20:19:48 Subject: public pgp key Rec'd UpdReq Hello Tony! 28 Jul 94 12:27, Tony Iannotti wrote to Josh Norton: TI> Possibly. I'll look into it. 93! (Moving this to netmail or a TI> PGP echo might be good. The moderator might bonk us TI> otherwise....) ;-) ` ROFL ROFL ROFL - you do realise that bonk is Australian for f... um, fornicate, don't you? I hope you're of the relevant degree to do that to yourself :) :) B*B Julia 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Julia Phillips Area: Thelema To: Tony Iannotti 1 Aug 94 20:22:36 Subject: Web of Wyrd Rec'd UpdReq Hello Tony! 29 Jul 94 07:35, Tony Iannotti wrote to Julia Phillips: TI> I would love a copy! PO Box 6635, Jersey City, NJ 07306-9998. TI> Thanks! No worries - I'll be posting them this week (w/e Aug 5) TI> What do I send you? ` It's on me... the main feature wouldn't exist without this echo, so it's the least I can do :) B*B Julia 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Julia Phillips Area: Thelema To: All 1 Aug 94 21:16:24 Subject: Shameless advertising UpdReq Hello All! (Grovelling apologies to the moderaptor) Remember all those threads in here about Uncle Al and Witchcraft? About the impact of the OTO on Wicca? the influence of CM on Wicca? did GBG make it all up, or pay Uncle Al to write the BoS? Well, now there is an echo where these conversations are (gasp!) On Topic! Yes folks, Witchcraft on Nuit (hmmm, sounds like a movie....) is just waiting to take your message. There are about 25 messages in there, so mosey on over, have a look, and stay around to play a while. okay - the shameless advertising is over now :) B*B Julia ... Friends, Ferrets, countrymen, lend me your ears ___ TagDude 0.86 [Unregistered] 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kevin Bold Area: Thelema To: Jaq 1 Aug 94 11:53:46 Subject: Re: More books... UpdReq 93! J> It was lead by J> Marcelo Motta then. I checked them out and they seem to be MORE consistent J> with the original A:.A:. and OTO as established by Crowley. Could be. While Motta had never been a member of the OTO, he was an A:.A:. initiate under Karl Germer. Additionally, keep in mind that OTO and A:.A:. are two separate entities; the former is rooted in Freemasonry/Martinism, the latter a revamped Order of the Golden Dawn. The only thing they have in common is Thelema. 93--93/93... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kevin Bold Area: Thelema To: Andrew Haigh 1 Aug 94 12:06:32 Subject: Archives & History UpdReq 93! CP> Well, I've been reading "Holy Blood Holy Grail." CP> Does that count? CP> Actually, it's pretty funny... so full of swiss CP> cheese masquerading as CP> reporting, that it makes von Daaniken seem like the CP> Encylopaedia Britannica! AH> For a better attempt at reconciling the Templars with the Masons AH> pick up `Born in Blood' by J. Robinson. He goes into the history AH> of the Lodge and tries to draw a connection between the Templars AH> and Freemasonry. IMHO he does a far better job at it than HBHG. _HBHG_'s main hypothesis is interesting as far as speculation goes, but B&L's other book, _The Temple and the Lodge_ is more pertinent to the history of the Templars to Masons transition. And both B&L and Robinson miss out on a lot of good stuff found in Idries Shah's _The Sufis_. IM'O, read all three to get the fullest picture. 93--93/93... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kevin Bold Area: Thelema To: Jaq 1 Aug 94 20:39:04 Subject: Re: More books... UpdReq 93! PS--I was referring to the A:.A:., not the OTO; to claim that you are head of an organization that you never even joined is like claiming to be Pope without even being Catholic. BTW, the OTO charged dues and fees in Crowley's day; check the "Blue" _Equinox_. 93--93/93... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Ar Aakhu-t Area: Thelema To: Fir 1 Aug 94 23:34:00 Subject: William Bloom UpdReq 93- FF> Also listed in _The Sacred Magician_ are: FF> FF> Meditation in a Changing World FF> Sacred Times FF> The New Age FF> The Seeker's Guide I saw one of these (dont remember which) over at the bookstore, so at least one is print- I bet they all are. He's... what can I say, reading his stuff, I just think "he's a queer bird" - s'what comes to mind, for some reason. I really appreciate that he's writing these -not- coming from the usual occult perspective. Lends more emphasis to the idea that what he writes is based on experience and not just rehash. FF> FF> Doesn't speak to English lit. novels though. Well, he mentions a close friendship with James Baldwin, so it figures- he'd be in contact with the literary expatriate types. 93/93 ,-----. . . / H \ -Ar Aakhu-t | H | bb125@scn.org | H | \ ===^=== / `._____,' 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Ar Aakhu-t Area: Thelema To: Grendel Grettisson 1 Aug 94 23:35:00 Subject: William Bloom UpdReq 93- GG> > probably Grendel can fill in tyhe titles, since I know GG> they've got GG> > several of them down at the shop. GG> GG> We do? GG> Yep, at least one besides the Devqa book. Don't remember which section it was in, but it wasn't shelved with the others. Maybe it was in meditation. ,=====. -93/93 ===' _---_ . . ===<< () > -Ar Aakhu-t `---' /| bb125@scn.org `-' | 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Ar Aakhu-t Area: Thelema To: Matthew Sandow 2 Aug 94 01:15:00 Subject: Julia Phillips & Microsoft ;) UpdReq 93- MS> So who of you lot works in Seattle and has a warped sense of MS> humour? That covers most of us around here... Actually, there are quite a fair number of pagans of various sorts at Microsoft. I only had contact witgh a few when I was there, but they are definitely infiltrated. 93/93 /\ . . .___/__\___. Ar Aakhu-t `./ \,' / ,><. \ bb125@scn.org /' `\ 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Julia Phillips 1 Aug 94 16:57:00 Subject: Salutation of the moon? UpdReq Thus said Julia Phillips to Josh Norton concerning Salutation of the moon?: JP> Hello Josh! Hi! JP> Interesting switch.... one of the reasons that Saturn *does* make JP> sense to me as an attribution of Binah though, is that whilst most of JP> the metaphysics of these systems were being established, JP> Saturn was furthest of the planets known to exist. So, it JP> would (I speculate ) have been seen as the gateway to JP> the super-celestial, or supernal realm. The association of JP> Saturn/Binah seems to make sense in that context, though JP> this could simply be an overlay which I have come to JP> accept. Some of the associations I have are the limitations JP> imposed by Saturn and Binah, the form/structure, life JP> evolving from the sea/life evolving via the gateway of JP> Binah, the gateway (life/death). Just a few rambling JP> thoughts, but I will ponder on the other association, and JP> see what springs out at me. From my own experience, the Saturn-Binah connection is definitely appropriate, and not too far off from your speculations. The early stages of the Binah initiation are all Saturn-like in nature, having to do with completion, endings, fitting things into a single structure, etc. The problem I have with Saturn as the ONLY planetary ruler of Binah is that in the later stages (constituting roughly two-thirds of my still- evolving experience of that sphere) the Saturn element becomes secondary, and other factors come to the fore. Saturn is still there, but simply as a shell or skin surrounding the finite levels of existence. What becomes of primary importance is the way in which the transcendental aspects of being act upon and within the finite aspects, the way in which the finite is formed out of the infinite and supported by it. In these later views, the symbolism of the Mother is much more important. The whole of finite existence becomes like a growing foetus in the womb, surrounded by the amnion of the Great Sea, receiving all its real support and nourishment from an infinitely more complex and developed world outside itself. For me, the Earth seems a more appropriate planetary symbol for these stages. I wonder if this was what the G.D. was getting at with it's AMA and AIMA, the dark sterile mother and the bright fertile mother? Saturn seems to me to work best with the cold, abstract, structural aspects of Binah, while Earth connects better with the immediacy, energy, and livingness with which Binah supports the lower spheres. And why not use both? In Alice Bailey's cosmology, both Saturn and Earth are supposed to be expressing different aspects of the same cosmic "ray"; their essence is the same even though their expressions of it are different. Switch from one to the other as appropriate. JP> Well, who are we mortals to argue with the angels? JP> Though I must admit that JP> I have had some, um, interesting debates with Metatron ;-) Heh. I've never hesitated to disagree with or ignore them. After all, if each of us is unique, it stands to reason that our own perceptions of the universe can produce connections they don't see, even as theirs are sometimes beyond our ken. ... ESCHATON.SYS Found. Immanentize? (Yes/No/Quit/Fnord)? ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Ar Aakhu-T 1 Aug 94 16:59:02 Subject: Cinti UpdReq Thus said Ar Aakhu-t to Josh Norton concerning Cinti: AA> 93- AA> You live near Cincinnatti, don't you? I'll be in AA> town near the end of August- perhaps we could meet for AA> coffee if you're able. Why in god's name would you want to come HERE???? Sure, give me a call when you're in town. Could you get my phone number from Fir? I don't want to post it on the net if I can avoid it. ... Caution: I kill for experience points. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Jonathon Blake 1 Aug 94 17:13:04 Subject: the key of it all UpdReq Thus said Jonathon Blake to Josh Norton concerning the key of it all: JN> TI> -!---BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- JN>Hey Tony! PGP signatures aren't any good without a copy of your public JN>key. How do we know it's REALLY you putting up these messages? JB> i guess i could also start signing my notes. I'm not too enamoured of the idea as a general practice, considering how much useless text it would add to folks' messages. It doesn't matter on the Internet, since transmission speeds are so high that an extra hundred chars per message isn't noticeable. But PODnet transmissions are slower and run over normal phone lines, by people usually paying for it out of their own pockets. The difference in phone costs could be a make- or-break factor for some BBSs. I can't recall anyone ever trying to send false-ID messages over PODnet anyway, so it doesn't seem to be a real problem. I suppose if someone actually became a victim of such a practice, it might be worthwhile adding in a PGP signature until the villain lost interest. JB> do you know where i can pgp 2.5? Nope, sorry! ... Kill them all--let God sort them out. --- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Navitae Area: Thelema To: Ar Aakhu-t 29 Jul 94 14:46:22 Subject: Re: Archives & History UpdReq AA> This leads, however, to pretty AA> challenging questions about just what our relationship to Freemasonry AA> is. Examining the history, it is not at all certain to me whether the AA> charter from John Yarker was all that legitimate, or whether it did AA> much good for the Order or our lineage. The AASR charter was not legit, Yarker had been kicked out fourty years previous to granting it. The MM stuff was legit though, but it had no connection with regular Masonry (except very briefly in France and well before Yarker). AA> Again with the HBL lineage, AA> which derives back to the French Rites and Cagliostro, AA> who was viewed as doubtful himself. It probably goes back no further than PB Randolph. I'd love to see some documentation to the contrary. AA> Now, all that comes from the usual sources AA> of Masonic History (Mackey, etc) and is neccesarily pretty AA> conservative. What I'm looking for is understanding of what we are in AA> Masonic terms other than some kind of 'illegitimate' splinter. It AA> seems pretty easy for a Freemason to examine our material, even the AA> public stuff, say, in III:10, and conclude that we are a 'clandestine AA> Lodge'. Irregular actually, since the OTO does not claim to offer any legit Masonic degrees. AA> Now, that may natter to some Freemasons more than others. But AA> the implication of that is some kind of illegitmacy or falseness, and AA> I for one strongly feel there is much more than that to O.T.O. Good AA> relations with the Masons is a good idea- we have much to learn from AA> each other, and more than just the fact that Masonic Temples are great AA> places for the Gnostic Mass! The OTO at one time opened it doors to regular Masons but the offer was not reciprocated. It seems unlikely that it ever would be especially since the Masons are not a magical organization. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Navitae Area: Thelema To: Christeos Pir 29 Jul 94 14:48:54 Subject: Re: Archives & History UpdReq KS> Do y'all have the Memphis and Mizraim material? We have uncovered a KS> TON... CP> Is any of this stuff still in print, or is it all privately CP> published? Yarker published them. Would Health Research have republished something like that? 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Navitae Area: Thelema To: Jaq 29 Jul 94 14:55:38 Subject: Re: More books... UpdReq CP> Just got a notice (no idea how they got my name) from someone called CP> Clerk-house Publishing: CP> CP> Gold Coins of the Master, by David Bersson (Frater Sphinx), and CP> all-new commentary of the Book of the Law, including CP> never-before released Obeah & Wanga wands, swords, and CP> rituals... plus a whole lot more. Limited Edition manuscript ... CP> $11 plus $3 s/h. Ja> David Bersson is to the best of my knowledge leader to Society Ja> Ordo Templi Orientis and its version of the A:.A:. . When Motta died, the SOTO split several ways. The David B. lineage is only one and may not be the most legit as he was one of the few who was not mentioned explicity in Motta's Will. Ja> This is the group which lost Ja> in court in california the rights to call themselves OTO. It was lead Ja> by Marcelo Motta then. I checked them out and they seem to be MORE Ja> consistent with the original A:.A:. and OTO as established by Crowley. Consistent with regards to the A.'.A.'.. less so in regards to the SOTO as the rituals (for one thing) were radically changed. Ja> For instance I know that no money is involved (to the best of my Ja> knowledge). There is no charge for memebership in the A.'.A.'. through them, but the SOTO memebership will cost you plenty. I don't recommend this lineage at any rate because (although David B. certianly knows his stuff) they are a rather hostile branch of Thelema. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Navitae Area: Thelema To: Julia Phillips 29 Jul 94 14:57:52 Subject: Re: Salutation of the moon? UpdReq N> Of course, the Jewish mainstream denounced Qabalism on the N> grounds that it's of Gnostic derivation (back in 1400's I think). JP> Of course! It's all dangerously metaphysical, after all ;-) I believe the denunciation came about because they are trying to keep Judaism as pure as possible. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Tony Iannotti Area: Thelema To: Julia Phillips 3 Aug 94 11:05:38 Subject: Re: public pgp key UpdReq -=> Quoting Julia Phillips to Tony Iannotti <=- JP> ROFL ROFL ROFL - you do realise that bonk is Australian for I did think that boink was slang-for, but did not know about bonking too. JP> f... um, fornicate, don't you? I hope you're of the relevant degree to JP> do that to yourself :) :) For years, dear.... ;-) ... Freya, Goddess of Love and War: If ya can't lay 'em, slay 'em! 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Tony Iannotti Area: Thelema To: Julia Phillips 3 Aug 94 11:07:56 Subject: Re: Web of Wyrd UpdReq -=> Quoting Julia Phillips to Tony Iannotti <=- TI> What do I send you? ` JP> It's on me... the main feature wouldn't exist without this echo, so JP> it's the least I can do :) Bless you madly! I look forward to it! ... Necrotelecomnicon: Book of Dead phone Numbers 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Tony Iannotti Area: Thelema To: Kevin Bold 3 Aug 94 11:28:12 Subject: Re: More books... UpdReq -=> Quoting Kevin Bold to Jaq <=- J> Marcelo Motta then. I checked them out and they seem to be MORE consistent J> with the original A:.A:. and OTO as established by Crowley. KB> Could be. While Motta had never been a member of the OTO, he was an KB> A:.A:. initiate under Karl Germer. Doesn't mean their version of OTO is any closer to AC, though. I think Jaq is just quoting some of their press releases. KB> Additionally, keep in mind that OTO and A:.A:. are two separate KB> entities; the former is rooted in Freemasonry/Martinism, the latter a KB> revamped Order of the Golden Dawn. The only thing they have in common KB> is Thelema. Good point, frequently forgotten. Most masonic orders involve money. I don't think Motta ever understood the purpose of OTO. (like I do?) But he was involved with A.'.A.'., and so projected that onto what he purported to be the OTO. ... Sacred cows make great hamburger. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Tony Iannotti Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 3 Aug 94 11:32:32 Subject: Re: the key of it all UpdReq -=> Quoting Josh Norton to Jonathon Blake <=- JN> I can't recall anyone ever trying to send false-ID messages over JN> PODnet anyway, so it doesn't seem to be a real problem. I suppose if JN> someone actually became a victim of such a practice, it might be JN> worthwhile adding in a PGP signature until the villain lost interest. There is a bit of an uproar over a Fidonews article purporting to be from someone who denies authorship. It affects PODS because the article is a diatribe against Pagan BBSs, exhorting people to bomb them and such. If the Fidonews required such signatures we could have saved mucho bandwidth. But I agree that it is mostly of no real use here. JB> do you know where i can pgp 2.5? JN> Nope, sorry! I don't know about 2.5, but I just got 2.6ui from the UK. It'll be freq'able from BNet soon. ... Don't hit me, Mr. Moderator... I'll go back on topic... I swear! 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Tony Iannotti Area: Thelema To: Navitae 3 Aug 94 11:35:50 Subject: Re: More books... UpdReq -=> Quoting Navitae to Jaq <=- Na> I don't recommend this lineage at any rate because (although Na> David B. certianly knows his stuff) they are a rather hostile Na> branch of Thelema. Only a few years ago they petitioned the Caliphate OTO for a set of initiation rituals. (0-XI) Seems Motta never gave them to them....... Needless to say, I declined to provide them. Guess that makes me hostile too! ... "I'm a moderator, not a role model." - Albertus Magnus 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718