From: V. H. Area: Thelema To: All 16 Aug 93 12:13:08 Subject: Mansur el-Hallaj UpdReq Anyone looked at the new four-volume biography and evaluation of Mansur el-Hallaj from Bollingen? I'd have grabbed it in a minute when I saw it, but I'm on an austerity program right now and the $120 would have haunted my Visa bill well into the future. I'd be interested in any comments... Still Eating Out Every Night, V.H. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: V. H. Area: Thelema To: V. H. 16 Aug 93 12:15:26 Subject: Mansur el-Hallaj UpdReq P.S. When I opened it randomly, the first thing I saw on the page was a statement that el-Hallaj had turned his teachings into a secret society resembling Freemasonry... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Bobby Meizer Area: Thelema To: V. H. 16 Aug 93 18:24:10 Subject: Mansur el-Hallaj UpdReq Have not seen it, but it sounds quite 'innerestin''. Maybe once you get a job you can buy it and let me make a copy... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Bobby Meizer Area: Thelema To: V. H. 16 Aug 93 18:25:48 Subject: Mansur el-Hallaj UpdReq sounds like the usual propaganda to me, but am withholding judgement till i see the context. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: V. H. Area: Thelema To: Bobby Meizer 16 Aug 93 23:13:12 Subject: Mansur el-Hallaj UpdReq I'm especially interested in the biographical details. The resemblances to the (entirely fictional) story of the death of Hiram Abiff are obvious, and I'm wondering if there's any more basis in history for the story of el-Hallaj. Not, of course, that this makes a whit of difference to the spiritual value! Nonliterally, V.H. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Captain Rock Area: Thelema To: Christeos Pir 11 Aug 93 09:01:28 Subject: Re: Sybil Leek UpdReq Christeos Pir has been charged with the crime of consorting with Captain Rock. The evidence: CP> It's never too late... that's what thrift shops and yard sales CP> are for! When you're right, you're right... I'll be on the lookout. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Rose Dawn Area: Thelema To: Donald C. Ives 11 Aug 93 05:47:58 Subject: Re: LOL UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Don > I want to thank you again for your help in thelema. I love what > I > have found in it. It has explained alot of what other people were > > calling insane. I'm not sure I can explain that one. But, Thelema > > has answered alot of questions for me. Do you know what I mean, maybe? No thanks necessary, Don, glad I was able to help you out a bit. I definitely know what you mean about answering questions. We all have places where we fit; the big deal is finding the right 'place' and pursuing it. I'm glad we had the opportunity to chat online. Give yourself credit for asking questions and actually listening to what people had to say. ;> Shameless plug time: credit also to the other Thelemites we were all chatting with. Haven't yet come across a more open and welcoming group of individuals personally. I've been very impressed with the local members since first 'meeting' them online, and more so with time. The other night in a scheduled Thelema conference, an earnest Christian man wandered in. He wasn't nasty or confrontational, but he *did* hold very firm views about divinity, life, spirituality, etc., some of which were rather incongruous to the way most of the other people in the conf. viewed the same things. No one yelled at him or told him to go away or called him names. This guy's attitude, of course, was a key--while definitely giving the impression he thought we were all pretty strange, he was respectful, and was treated with respect in turn. Nobody was 'converted' on either side, but I think a bridge was crossed in that discussion between human beings with strongly-held beliefs was able to take place without anyone resorting to name-calling. All of which is a roundabout way of saying something like if more people behaved like Thelemites the world would be a better place! ;> Love is the law, love under will. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Rose Dawn Area: Thelema To: Christeos Pir 11 Aug 93 05:54:54 Subject: Re: ADA AND THE OTO UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. > You're talking about me, aren't you? I knew it. You're spying on me > through this monitor! But you can't get me, because I'm gonna pay > you all back one day!!! Darn! You figured it out. Well, there's still Miz Jones of the Illuminati and Grampa who's trying to decide whether bay leaves or thyme would be more a more flavorful addition when he serves you for breakfast... > Love is the law, love is the law. Love under will, love under will. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Taltos Area: Thelema To: Captain Rock 11 Aug 93 19:28:44 Subject: Re: ADA AND THE O.T.O. UpdReq > Ta> I do believe that the O.T.O. would be considered a religious > Ta> entity, therefore, the ADA does not apply to us. > > Why not? I believe that legally, a church is just about anything > that calls itself one. It has to be that way in order to keep lawmakers > from defining the word "religion", which would lead to a state church, > and penalties for "criminal worship evasion" imposed on those who did > not attend. > > Hold weekly meetings, whether to discuss methods of attainment, or > to drink dark beverages and play cards. Do that and you'll be entitled > to the same legal considerations as any church. Sorry about the confusion, Cap'n. We are both on the same side, I just haven't figured out a good emoticon for being sarcastic, yet ;) Tal 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Serpens Area: Thelema To: Captain Rock 12 Aug 93 22:53:52 Subject: Re: THE G.D. UpdReq Rock - Actually, you said: "Crowley's view is what I have, and for all I know, maybe Yeats DID hate him. If you have evidence to the contrary, I'm interested." Yeats may well have hated AC - I observe that you did not, as I first thought, express belief in Crowley's pompous claim that Yeats immediately hated him for being a better poet. However, I was not, as you seem to think, suggesting that you were incorrect in claiming AC left the Golden Dawn because it charged dues (it seems to me you are incorrect in this, based on numerous references in Crowley's writings to other, more important reasons that he left the GD, as well as the fact that the OTO under Crowley charged dues that make the GD look like chump change, as well as the fact that the GD habitually excused dues for productive members who were broke, viz. Allan Bennett, with deficits made up by well-to-do members like Annie Horniman, etc.). I was suggesting that you are incorrect in ascribing unbiassed accuracy to Crowley's statemements about other members of the GD, specifically Yeats, though he is likewise viciously biassed in his statements about Mathers, Farr, Webb nee Horniman, and of course Waite (not perhaps quite so far off base about Waite as far as literary style (g)). 93. Paul 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Captain Rock Area: Thelema To: Taltos 14 Aug 93 05:58:22 Subject: Re: ADA AND THE O.T.O. UpdReq Taltos has been charged with the crime of consorting with Captain Rock. The evidence: Ta> Sorry about the confusion, Cap'n. We are both on the same side, Ta> I just haven't figured out a good emoticon for being sarcastic, Ta> yet ;) Not at all. By the way, I was just playing with my Ouija board and Sammy Davis, Jr. says "hi". .> Rock 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Captain Rock Area: Thelema To: Serpens 14 Aug 93 06:20:30 Subject: Re: THE G.D. UpdReq Serpens has been charged with the crime of consorting with Captain Rock. The evidence: Se> Actually, you said: "Crowley's view is what I have, and for all I Se> know, maybe Yeats DID Se> hate him. If you have evidence to the contrary, I'm interested." Those are my words. Se> Yeats may well have hated AC - I observe that you did not, as I Se> first thought, express belief in Crowley's pompous claim that Se> Yeats immediately hated him for being a better poet. I can't make much of a judgement on that. I've never read Yeats, so I'm in no position to know who was better. As a sidenote, I find most of Crowley's poetry almost as much of a bore as his plays. Se> I was suggesting that you are incorrect in ascribing unbiassed Se> accuracy to Crowley's statemements about other members of the GD, Se> specifically Yeats, though he is likewise viciously biassed in Se> his statements about Mathers, Farr, Webb nee Horniman, and of Se> course Waite (not perhaps quite so far off base about Waite as far Se> as literary style (g)). When did I do that? ALL I originally said was that Crowley left the Golden Dawn because they were too interested in money, and I don't see what's wrong with accepting a man's personal views as a basis for that same man's actions. I *did not* judge the Golden Dawn in any way, nor did I back up any of Crowley's other statements, although I reserve the right to do so if certain ones ever come up. I'm going to rephrase this just ONE MORE TIME for the home audience because I'm getting sick and tired of the subject: Crowley left the Golden Dawn because he felt that they only cared about money and if anybody wants to know why I say this, I suggest reading The History Lection, found in _Gems_From_The_Equinox_ and a few other places. Rock 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Captain Rock Area: Thelema To: Grendel Grettisson 14 Aug 93 09:33:28 Subject: Re: THE G.D. UpdReq Grendel Grettisson has been charged with the crime of consorting with Captain Rock. The evidence: GG> Oh, there is no doubt that Yeats hated Crowley. I really doubt GG> if Yeats (one of the best poets of the late 19th century and GG> early 20th) hated Crowley because of Crowley's greater skill in GG> poetry. I never said anything like that. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Captain Rock Area: Thelema To: Grendel Grettisson 14 Aug 93 09:34:34 Subject: Re: ADA AND THE O.T.O. UpdReq Grendel Grettisson has been charged with the crime of consorting with Captain Rock. The evidence: GG> Groups incorporate as non-profit religious organizations with GG> the IRS. That is how the government recognizes Churches when it GG> does so at all. That's what I meant. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Rose Dawn Area: Thelema To: Christeos Pir 16 Aug 93 08:23:34 Subject: KIDS/RELIGION UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. CP I'm picking your name out of the crowd because I remember from the Kids/Mass thread that you actually *have* child(ren?) around the same age as my daughter. Of course, anyone else is more than welcome to respond, should it be their Will. The stage of parenting vis religion has moved in my personal life from Theory to Practice over the last couple days. Personally, having a daughter who seems to have an 'inborn' interest in things spiritual, and not having been 'religious' myself, I always let her go her own way and explore any spiritual or religious organizations she came into contact with, and there have been many. She informed me recently that she wants to be baptised in a local Christian church. If I'm really going to walk it like I talk it, I can't bring myself to flatly refuse to allow it, but I'm, let's say, a bit concerned. It's the same church her father (my ex, a not-always-nice person) attends & practically the only times they've had together which approached serene have been the 2 or 3 times they've gone to this church together. I suspect that becoming closer to her father is the real reason she wants to be baptised, as he seems to be pleased with her only when she does *his* thing. What I've done is talk with her. At first she was quite insistent that she liked the church, believed in Jesus, etc., but still wanted to 'learn about other religions.' I dropped the subject and later that evening she came back and told me she'd changed her mind and wanted to hold off on actually being baptised, but also wanted to begin attending this church regularly. I pointed out that being baptised into a particular church was a fairly big step and that she should explore in more depth what they really believe and see if she could swallow it along with the Youth Group beach trips and Sunday School propaganda. She agreed. I find myself unsure what to do next! Possibly (probably?) time will take care of the situation by itself (when she discovers that MTV is frowned upon, for instance ;> ), but the dilemma is along the lines of--if I don't push her NOT to like this church, her father without a doubt will be pushing her TO like it. If she insists she actually wants to be baptised and agrees with this church's teachings, etc., what then? I realize, obviously, it's something we have to work out for ourselves, but am interested in the thoughts of other parents of early adolescents around the topic. Anything less than complete enthusiasm is bound to enrage the illustrious ex, who is prone to leaving dead animals on my doorstep already, but who has court-enforced visitation rights and exercises them on Sunday evenings between 5:30-7 p.m. (church time). We've already clashed over matters spiritual vis our daughter before and so far I've been able to handle it, though it's distressing and I don't want to have her hurt if things get uglier (I mean emotionally). Right now, I'm leaning toward some sort of compromise in the form of allowing her to attend church, but putting a time-limit down before she makes a decision about whether to become a member, i.e., OK, you have to go for {6 months? a year?} before you can make up your mind, and continuing to talk seriously to her about what she hears at the church, etc. There are ramifications to the "religious issue" that go into fairly deep and nasty territory vis the ex, but those are mine to endure; I'm interested in your thoughts as a parent on the topic of trusting the kid's decision, even if it's on the distasteful side personally. I realize that sprinkling the kid with water and saying a few prayers doesn't bind her for life, but I don't want to underestimate the importance either! So...whaddya think? Love is the law, love under will. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Richard Kaczynski Area: Thelema To: Captain Rock 11 Aug 93 10:40:54 Subject: THE G.D. UpdReq > Grendel Grettisson has been charged with the crime of > consorting with Captain Rock. The evidence: > GG> Go for it but Crowley's own view is far short of historically > GG> accurate or unbiased. This is, after all, the man that thought > GG> Yeats hated him because of his ability as a poet. > Crowley's view is what I have, and for all I know, maybe Yeats DID > hate him. If you have evidence to the contrary, I'm interested. Yeats DID hate Crowley, but I doubt the reason was professional jealousy. After all, they were on opposite sides of a bitter political/magical war [not to mention they may have been competing for the attentions of the same woman]. See also the posting by Serpens. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Richard Kaczynski Area: Thelema To: V. H. 11 Aug 93 10:47:52 Subject: Equinox Question UpdReq > I seem to be missing a number of the Equinox. Here is a list of volume > III, minus one number. Can one of you tell me what the missing number > is? Thanks! > II: The Gospel According to St. Bernard Shaw Number II survives in page proofs (in a private collection, I believe), and contains much more than the above. > VII: ??? This is the Shih Yi, published in 1971 by Thelema Publications 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Bruce Kroeze 15 Aug 93 15:39:02 Subject: multiple truths UpdReq Thus said Bruce Kroeze to Josh Norton concerning multiple truths: BK> Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law Hiya, Bruce! BK> here comes my fallacy of condemnation by association. BK> Take it with a smile, or not. JN> hyper-anarchistic bate cabal > testosterone-induced compulsion > play King of the Mountain > biologically-based compulsion > inherently ego-inflating > sublimated Naked Ape behavior > No-Good Shit BK> Wow, could you use _more_ R.A.Wilsonesque buzz-words? Hey, man! I _said_ it was a rant. What did you expect, an Alfred North Whitehead essay?? I reserve the right to be moody and irrational whenever I damn well please. And did you note my quote from Frank Herbert in the follow-up message? There's more real wisdom in his last three novels than in all of Crowley's writings. Incidentally, for all those who got heated up over my comments, especially Frater Almost: I have read the entire OTO bylaws since posting those rants, and see nothing in them that would change my basic position: I.e., that there is an inherent contradiction between "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" and the structure of the OTO. I think the bylaws confirm my opinion perfectly. If the new, post- judicial-recognition OTO hasn't yet suffered seriously from it, it will; it just takes a little time for ossification to set in. Moreover, I think the bylaws would make wonderful fodder for paranoid conspiracy theorists; I'm surprised there hasn't been more flak about it in that quarter. Returning to your comments, Bruce, Wilsonian buzz-words generally contain a truth, usually a truth that people would rather minimize and ignore. And having been declared a No-Good Shit on numerous occasions -- including having _real_ shit thrown at me by members of the offended primate band -- I feel I can speak with some authority in this matter. ;-) Wilson was hardly the first to point out the instinctual, biological basis for most human behavior, and the way that unconscious instinctual influences screw up our consciously-created organizational structures. No evidence since has contradicted his contention -- in fact, it tends to support it. As an example, some recent research found that in older male humans, witnessing or instigating acts of violence between other people produces a significant increase in testosterone levels. Think this might be the underlying reason why our Revered Leaders are so willing to start wars? It helps them get it up! And the behavior of Congressmen is hardly different from that of the leaders in a band of chimpanzees -- they take the best helpings for themselves and pass the remainder on to their followers. Everybody else has to grab what they're able out of the leftovers. My favorite example of naked-ape behavior comes from South America's macho cultures, where fucking your enemy in the butt is an accepted way of demonstrating your triumph over him/her, exactly as it is in chimpanzee bands. And the person taking the male role in a homosexual encounter there is not considered a homosexual -- he's considered more "manly" for having done so. But the examples are endless, and I'm sure you can find many in your own experience if you bother to think about it. ... Bureaucracy - transforming energy into solid waste. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: V. H. 15 Aug 93 12:45:04 Subject: Equinox question UpdReq Thus said V. H. to Christeos Pir concerning Equinox question: VH> Thanks very much. That Yi King is pretty slender to be an VH> Equinox! My copy doesn't have any Equinox markings. (Or VH> much in the way of a publisher's imprint.) "The Gospel VH> According to St. Bernard Shaw" seems to exist only in VH> typescript, not in galley proofs, so perhaps it's not the VH> III:2 after all, despite my usually reliable and well- VH> informed source. It may have been thought to have Equinox VH> status because it was circulated (though not really VH> "published") by the Germer O.T.O. In case you're interested, "The Gospel According to St. Bernard Shaw" has been published in book form, under the title "Crowley on Christ", by Samuel Weiser. I've got an old hardback copy, but I've seen paperback editions in the last couple of years. According to the Regardie intro, it was never intended by Crowley to be part of the Equinox volumes. ... Existential vacuum? Does it come with attachments? ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Donald C. Ives Area: Thelema To: Kayla Block 15 Aug 93 16:46:32 Subject: Re: LOL ;) UpdReq -=> Quoting Kayla Block to Donald C. Ives <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. KB> well, since i rarely call modem magick and never pick up mail there, KB> it wouldn't have really got to me most likely anyway. i just recently KB> found where i had copied your address down a while ago. KB> unfortunately, now i need to find THAT again. (as you may have KB> noticed, sometimes i can be REALLY, REALLY disorganized! anyway, the KB> next step after that is for me to find my 5 1/4 floppies, then the KB> next step is for me to go copy the disks. (IOW, it might take me a KB> bit of time). I have posted my address again in another post. Don't worry about the time it takes I'll not move without telling you. ;) KB> anyway, if you don't mind being a "center of pestilence", what did you KB> like about The Book of the Law? for myself, although i am a KB> thelemite, i had a hard time with all but chapter 1 for a long, long KB> time. (now, when something bothers me in any of crowley's holy books, KB> i just figure that i don't understand it yet.) KB> also, how did you feel burning the book? I don't think I could be anymore the "Center Of Pestilence" than I already am. I'll tell you if you really want to know. First off it put pieces of the puzzle togeather for me. It's like I've said in another post I've been doing my will all my life anyway. Now I'm told that it's Ok that's as it should be. I thought so anyway. I love god, but not the one others seemed to believe in. "The Book Of Law" is written in code. I think in code, and I have been accused of talking in code as well. Some people are afraid of me because of the way I think. I see it in their eyes when I'm talking to them. I'm not comfortable with that still. I've made it a practice to make jokes, and be a funny guy, because I can't find many people who'll talk to me about what is on my mind. I feel like an enigma even unto myself. Kayla I'm not sure I can put what I got from "The Book Of The Law" into words. I guess basically "The Book Of The Law" tells me there is place for people like myself here on earth. Does any of this make sense? We'll talk more about it later if you like..... LOL Love is the law, love under will. Don 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718