From: Jonathon Blake Area: Thelema To: Liliani 2 Sep 92 09:02:06 Subject: Love under Will UpdReq quoting LILIANI To: JOSH NORTON ___------------------------------------------------------------------------ LI}>Well, while maintaining that I do love humanity in general, I would also LI}>apply my definitions. What would be best for the human LI}>race, as a race, and the Earth, as a whole, would be the LI}>destruction of about 2/3 of us plus strong inhibitions LI}>against overpopulation. Tough Love << very tough love >> LI}>Hardly in conformity with the New Age seamless garment take no life, eh? new age seamless garment garbage. something not for people to utilize/practice/follow. i think i got sick of new age philosophy the first time somebody tried to inflict ramtha on me as the one true way. 93 jonathon * SLMR 2.1a * Common Sense Isn't So Common 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vitriol Area: Thelema To: Karl Lembke 5 Sep 92 09:05:08 Subject: Traffic UpdReq 93! What do you mean by `perfecting'? WILL LOVE ... Drive your cart & your plow over the bones of the dead. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vitriol Area: Thelema To: L'Amour Dujour 5 Sep 92 09:05:10 Subject: Re: work, will...wha? UpdReq -=> L'amour Dujour sent a message to Vitriol on 09-02-92 01:02 <=- -=> Re: Re: work, will...wha? <=- LD> Two points here above. No I haven't read the book, nor will I in the LD> near future. I have taken a haitus, a leave of absense. Full fledged LD> STOP of any and all magickal work, other than philosophy. Well, it's _not_ on magick, and it _is_ philosophy, but not boring and dusty, but living and very readable. You could finish it in a day or two. But QVIF. LD> have basically thrown down the gauntlet at my Selves. LD> One way or another, it's time for a cohesive answer. Hope it works for you. Last time I tried that, the reply was: "We'll still be here when you're done with your attitude." And they/it/I were/was. BTW, it's too bad you're not rich. I've got this TASCAM 22-4 4-track R-to-R in my basement... ... And with Labours of Ignorance fill every place. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vitriol Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 5 Sep 92 09:05:12 Subject: The great work UpdReq -=> Josh Norton sent a message to Karl Lembke on 09-02-92 23:28 <=- -=> Re: The great work <=- My problem with this discussion is that while I disagree with a number of your points, I basically agree with your final POV of the whole question! QUOTE: I don't agree that it isn't part of the equation. Just the opposite. If the Great Work is an ongoing divine creative act, as I have contended before, then attempting to comprehend that act, to "tune in" to the divine will to whatever extent we are capable, would be the most direct pipeline possible for attaining initiation. It would be the genuine "line of least resistance", whereas invoking various lesser powers adds intermediate steps to the process. I can imagine a system in which seeking to get in tune with the divine creative process was the core of the system, and much of what we consider "necessities" of magickal work would be relegated to a secondary role. Why mess around with all those lesser "Gods" and "powers" when you can go straight to the source? UNQUOTE I am, as I said above, in basic agreement with your final assesment here -- but I see that we've been talking about two approaches to the same thing: you're talking about the divine moving from Kether `down' to Malkuth, I of the human `ascending' from Malkuth to Kether. They are both the same, relativity works on all planes. Nevertheless, not everyone is, or feels they are (which can amount to the same thing), capable of connecting with the ALL, and find it more effective or even necessary at their particular stage of development to use those intermediaries. Y'know, like Jehovah, Horus, Nobodaddy, Allah, Krishna, or Set? This is perhaps why they arise: most of us need a handle with which to grasp the Ineffable. Just as we do with all the rest of the Chaos around us, we `graph the squiggles', as Alan Watts would say, and put labels on the subdivisions of shapes we see. Those labels include Mother, Father, tree, water, war, love, Nuit, etc... QUOTE Some of Alice Bailey's more esoteric works UNQUOTE I'm not familiar with Bailey's work. QUOTE Hmph. The heat from a lightbulb increases the rate of vibration of the atoms in the lampshade, but it doesn't do the lampshade any good because [...] Just look at all those mystical "masters" who attain samadhi, and may make a few disciples high on their radiated force, but can't accomplish anything significant because they can't _connect_ their enlightenment with anything else. At some point, if your attainment is going to be really useful to the world, you're going to have to hook into the divine will and start cooperating with it. Why not earlier instead of later? UNQUOTE I don't know from lampshades, except that some of my paternal ancestors recently narrowly escaped become some. I agree about the kind of enlightenment you refer to above, except that I don't call that enlightment. (OK, I'm drawing a line) I call that having a vision or experience of enlightenment, but not attaining to enlightenment. Hardly what I'd consider accomplishing the GW. There's a difference between hitting Satori, and living in Samadhi (or do I mean v/v?). As for the rest, it's not for me to say -- since I can't see the whole picture -- what their function is. Layman P'ang had very little influence in his lifetime, but has had great impact on mine. Crowley, for all his human traits, has had an immense impact on today's world. The many unknown, unremembered teachers through the ages have guarded the roots of tomorrow's blooms. JN> But we might learn something about the divine creator(s) by looking at JN> their microcosmic counterparts. One thing I've heard from JN> creative artists in a number of fields is that no creation they do is JN> ever really finished. There are always more possibilities than can be JN> put into manifestation in a particular work of art, or a series of JN> such works. There is always room for endless tinkering and variation. But -microcosmically- one usually begins another variation, rather than tinkering with the old. JN> I see the "divine" creators as being in a corresponding position, JN> except more so. The "materials" on which the divine creation is worked JN> are the "matter" which makes up all the planes of existence. And these JN> materials _change_their_nature_ as the act of creation progresses. Heh... kinda like giving birth! JN> So, IMO, the Great Work is far from being a progress towards a JN> foreseen and "perfect" goal; instead it is a constant dance of JN> adaptation between the divine and the material of the work. My feelings as well. ... Degrade first the Arts if you'd Mankind degrade ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vitriol Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 5 Sep 92 09:05:14 Subject: Karma UpdReq QUOTE Now as far as "karma" goes [...] The common understanding of this term -- even among sophisticated Hindus and Buddhists I have met -- is that there is some sort of Cosmic Santa Claus watching us and totaling up a score of "good" and "bad" actions. But instead of Christmas presents, the Karmic Claus hands out "status" in the next incarnation. UNQUOTE I'm not going to speak to the `transmigration of souls' question, since I don't have enough factual information to form an opinion - something that doesn't seem to bother most authors on the subject. I am of the "Karma means if you step in front of a car you'll probably get hit" school. IMO, Karma is another term for what Western Newtonian Science has mistakenly called cause and effect. (Is the serpent's tail the effect of its head?) As they had no concept for what Einsteinian Science calls Spacetime, they may be forgiven. QUOTE The best one can say is that as a general rule -- really a matter of simple courtesy -- it is wrong to interfere with another person's "true will", to prevent him or her from achieving their self-determined goals. And similarly it is wrong to encourage a world-situation where people's opportunities for self-exploration are artificially restricted -- especially by someone else's notion of "what's good for them." UNQUOTE Aumgn. Oh, and, put on that seatbelt! ... He who desires but acts not, breeds pestilence. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Tau Ursa Area: Thelema To: Vitriol 6 Sep 92 21:46:26 Subject: Karma Sent UpdReq Don't let your dogma piss on my Karma. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718