From: L'Amour Dujour Area: Thelema To: Vitriol 2 Sep 92 01:02:04 Subject: Re: work, will...wha? UpdReq ..Gods assumed the form of Vitriol ..To L'amour Dujour they scribed "Re: work, will...wha?" Vi> "It must be love, if it's a bitch!" I know what you mean. There's Vi> still a part that says "what if everything that you think you are, is Vi> wrong?" Vi> What works for me when I feel as confoozed as you referred to Vi> yourself getting sometimes, is reminding myself of the truths that Vi> I've found in the Tao, Vedanta, and Zen/Ch'an. Have you read Watt's Vi> "The Book"? Two points here above. No I haven't read the book, nor will I in the near future. I have taken a haitus, a leave of absense. Full fledged STOP of any and all magickal work, other than philosophy. There are a few things I need to regain original state to accomplish. While doing this, I've decided to take a look at where I am getting myself.... and have basically thrown down the gauntlet at my Selves. One way or another, it's time for a cohesive answer. ... Answers at 1/2 Price, Correct Answers at Double; dumb looks are free. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: L'Amour Dujour Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 2 Sep 92 01:16:06 Subject: Re: love under will UpdReq ..Gods assumed the form of Josh Norton ..To L'amour Dujour they scribed "Re: love under will" LD> "Bind nothing! Let there be no difference made among you between any > one thing and any other thing; for thereby there cometh hurt." JN> ......... always sounded to me more like a paraphrase of the Buddha's JN> Noble Eightfold path. I.e. "desire is the cause of sorrow", etc. It works (I have found) in about 3 different arenas. I was using one of the more obvious senses - of realizing the contenuity of existance. JN> but who / what determines what "needs" to be done? Your "higher self?" JN> Some cosmic Santa Claus who totes up your "good" and "bad" actions and JN> determines your fate accordingly? God? Some unpersonalized Forces of JN> Existence? Something else? Well, when I get above the abyss, I'll answer that one. I tend to find several different influences at work. One of which is part and parcel of my own self, a non-conscious self-hood I guess. I usually phrase it as "Higher Self". Most GD people would have me believe I have a separate and distinct entity called an HGA, that is here to help me. I have seen no reason magickal or mundane, to not think that this isn't a "True Self", and part of me in the first place. Oftenten-times I will recieve messages/signals that don't seem to come from within my own system. Who? or What? would be affecting me on these occasions, I only speculate. Most likely, these are the deities that I have worked with on these occasions, and have devoted myself to. JN> You make it sound like the purpose of existence is to wipe itself out JN> in a massive horde of particle-antiparticle interactions. I can just JN> see Devo making a song out of it. Just kidding. Actually, I've got a song out about that. And two more sitting in my 4-Track waiting to be mixed down, so..... Somewhat, somehow, somewhy. That's part of why I've taken a leave of absense. I'm getting out of magickal mode entirely for a while. Sitting back and thinking these things through, without the constant barrage of belief being part of my training, etc. Until and unless I see a darn good reason to return, I may well not. Right now I'm deep in the throes of anger/hurt over some stuff, so I'm being quite predictably rebellious. JN> OK. From your viewpoint, if I am reading you correctly, "Love under JN> will" relates more to the process of "initiation", of moving back "up JN> the Tree of Life", of "withdrawal from manifestation" than it does JN> with any sort of ongoing creative process. Please correct me if I'm JN> wrong. But if not, what about your relations with the parts of JN> existence that are further down the planes than yourself? Obviously JN> you've already united with the lower parts of your own being, but what JN> about the rest of the world? What acts would you be prompted to perform JN> in relation to things/entities/beings on lower levels, under the rule JN> of "Love under will"? Then you've read me wrong entirely. "Love" being the uniting of the Lover and the Loved... so you wouldn't be 'withdrawing from manifestation' at all! You'd be becoming more and more a true, interacting piece of it as you move up. I may be wrong, but I see crossing the abyss as the step in which we fully comprehend the truth that we are not a body, a soul, but a living particle of all of existance. Being able to feel the whole. When we stop being "me" and "you" in our minds. When we become aware of the continuity of the universe at large, etc etc. ... Love is the Law, Love of the Taglines by Will. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vitriol Area: Thelema To: L'Amour Dujour 1 Sep 92 09:01:18 Subject: Love under/above will UpdReq -=> L'amour Dujour sent a message to Vitriol on 08-31-92 19:45 <=- -=> Re: Love under/above will <=- LD> Come now! I am a sadist, Vitriol. You??? HAHAHAHAHA... I know, something about judging a book by the cover...? LD> If you don't do it "to excess", you don't do it at all! Very Blakean. ;-) LD> I tend to see the Magickal Link as the physical sign of that `Physical'? LD> This would make Love under Will be the uniting of the separate LD> realities, of separate understandings, of separate physical forms I can't argue with that, it being your (present) perception. Mine is different. (Hint: what does `separate' mean, above the Abyss?) LD> Bingo. I'm not only working to bring my understanding to a higher LD> level, but to manifest that understanding into action below the Abyss. Thus, "As above, so Below" means not that rising on one is rising on the other, or I should say, means MORE than that: it also means that rising on one is descending from the other (relativity again), and, in fact, the so-called Abyss may be seen as Alice's mirror! LD> That I could come closer to a full understanding of my own self, LD> and use that knowledge to sweep the floors of desire... Interestingly put... perhaps those floors are in the Temple `Josh' describes! ;-) LD> I understand the idea that someone else may be working on something LD> COMPLETELY different, and it could fall under that. I am working on LD> bringing myself to higher.closer.fuller understanding of the forces LD> around/within me. Someone might be doing the same thing a different LD> way, or a different thing a different/same way. There is no collision, LD> there is no reason for me to be bothered by/about it. That's not what I meant, exactly. More that it might be your function to do one thing, and another's to do something in apparent opposition to that. But that in the greater scheme, -with the proviso that you are each actually doing your Will being a `given' in this example- you are each necessary to the whole. Then again, I might be full of it. LD> Well, it may just be a sign of my ignorance, but until further notice, LD> "Thou" is myself. But since I seem to be consistently drawn and LD> affected by the something with a clearer vision within me, a 'self' I LD> would call my True Self, I dedicate that idea to him/her/it. LD> If I ever come to the conclusion that I have a separate and distinct LD> HGA, that may change as well. At this point in time, I see no reason to LD> believe this, so..... "Not my will, but Thine..." ... If the fool would persist in his folly ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718