From: Azoth Area: Thelema To: Vitriol 29 Aug 92 20:07:00 Subject: The kybalion UpdReq 93, Vitriol! V | Az> If you ever decide to part with that 'Hammer', let me know....Not as V | Az> gnarly as Remigius, but precious in it's own quaint fashion. V | V | We might could work something out. I wish I'd known: I originally had .... V | And I'd have to check with the Ol' Lady, now that she's interested in V | Wicca, she may want to keep it. Cool. The Dover I've had for years, and it's looking pretty ratty. If your Wiccan Missus wouldn't miss it, I'd be glad to abscond with yours. Who was the publisher, and when? Another Dover I'd like to get in a nice edition is that of Scot's _Discoverie_, and one I'd like to see in _any_ edition is Wierus's original _Pseudomonarchia_. Cavendish handled the grimoires fairly well, wouldn't you say, if not as well as EM Butler? I did recently pick up the tome by Rabelais in a printing from the Franklin Mint for $20: I wish all my acquisitions were so reasonable (I'll shortly be out $175 or so for Grant's _Images_&_Oracles.) 93 93/93 ___ X JABBER v1.2 X Fnords: fnord, fnord, fnord, fnord, fnord, fnord, fnord. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vitriol Area: Thelema To: L'Amour Dujour 29 Aug 92 08:29:04 Subject: Work, will...and just wh UpdReq -=> L'amour Dujour sent a message to Vitriol on 08-28-92 23:26 <=- -=> Re: Work, will...and just wh <=- LD> I know that spiritual growth and LD> acceptance will be a founding factor. I know that this includes a LD> closer relationship to both my True Self, and my Deities. I know that LD> this will also include (in some form) people who I am in contact with. LD> Beyond that............... I know what you mean about speculating about so important a matter. And yet, without some idea of what we're doing, why do it? (Hint: AL I:44) _At this point in time_ my Great Work involves realizing my Greater Potentiality (-ies). Later, after K&C, that may not be the same. LD> be on a personal level with the people involved, as opposed to working LD> in a larger group environment.] If it weren't part of your Path, it wouldn't be _your_ path. IOW, if you find that you work best in a certain way, then that's the best way for you _to_ work! Of course, if you contemplate undertaking the Ordeal of the Abyss, you'll probably be working on balancing those strengths and weaknesses in yourSelf. ...gone beyond, gone altogether beyond, oh what an awakening, all hail! ... The eyes of fire, the nostrils of air ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vitriol Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 29 Aug 92 08:29:06 Subject: Love under will UpdReq -=> Josh Norton sent a message to Vitriol on 08-27-92 16:53 <=- -=> Re: Love under will <=- JN> CHANGE MY NAME!!!!???! NEVER! Oh well, so much for that idea. I think you missed my meaning. I'd explain it, but a certain brother of mine might raise the forces of Mars against my VDT. ... For everything that lives is holy. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vitriol Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 29 Aug 92 08:29:10 Subject: Traffic UpdReq -=> Josh Norton sent a message to Vitriol on 08-27-92 17:00 <=- -=> Re: Traffic <=- JN> That's what everybody seems to say it is, but I wonder. Doesn't that JN> view seem just a little narrow-minded, a little bit parochial? What JN> about the rest of the universe? Is it just a convenient backdrop or JN> movie set on which we play out our dramas of personal initiation? Or JN> might not the Great Work also include processes that relate to JN> everything else as well? It is clear that there is no need to bring into our equation, variables that cannot have a bearing on the equation. While we are certainly much more than our highschool science classes would have us believe, the Universe is a `vasty' place. Our spheres of influence are great, greater than we ourselves may know, yet still only reach a portion of the Universe, even in multi-dimensional space/time/ aethyr/etc. And anyway, why do you feel the two views are mutually exclusive? May not my Enlightenment, and assuming the Throne, affect "everything else as well"? ... The roaring of lions, the howling of wolves ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vitriol Area: Thelema To: Sean Mccullough 29 Aug 92 08:29:12 Subject: Re: crowley's age UpdReq -=> Sean Mccullough sent a message to Vitriol on 08-26-92 00:39 <=- -=> Re: Re: crowley's age <=- SM> <> If you like that one, there's 219 more like it in the "Book of the Inlaws"... Try, "You can do anything thou wilt, at Aleister's Restaurant..." SM> Also, I have a question for you. Can you get P_NEWS Haven't seen it on any of my boards. Just tell 'em I said: "Some people think that _any_ goverment is better than _no_ government. They're wrong." -Chris Feldman Or just start typing in whole pages of Prince Kropotkin's piece on Anarchy from the 1953 Encyclopaedia Britannica. That'll larn 'em! ... And wash in a river, and shine in the Sun ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vitriol Area: Thelema To: Neuro Sonic 29 Aug 92 08:29:14 Subject: Great work/true will UpdReq -=> Neuro Sonic sent a message to Virtriol on 08-29-92 02:38 <=- -=> Re: Great work/true will <=- Ya gotta watch that typing, I almost didn't get this one. NS> I'm pretty sure I know what my True Will is, now I just NS> have to develope the skills to Do it or get to that place NS> where I'm told "No you ignorant Materialist, I mean ******". I've found that while some of the details have changed along the way, my expectations of my GW are still pretty much along the same lines as when I started. NS> If it wasn't for my sluggish trance of Procrastination and I've called the second Test along the way, the Ordeal of Perseverance. (And it's a BITCH!) ;-) NS> No reason to stress to bad though, I figure I'm much further on the NS> path than the rest of this Sleepers around me. While this may or may not be true, it sounds elitist and bogus, bro. The centipede that thinks about his feet, stumbles. Don't worry about what others are doing -- just stay the course. NS> now live in a light of contentment with a feeling of purpose, Feels good, don't it! NS> If I were to die this instant I do feel I could hold my NS> Karmic Burden, "It is a good day to die!" NS> and now that I've led a much fuller, NS> happier, life then many three times my age. Still looking over your shoulder? NS> Living in the moment, (as difficult as it may be, is one of the most NS> worthy paths I've known, and the lessons of Life's Phuck-ups are NS> far more enlightening (upon reflection) then any NS> meditation. Enlightenment is here and now. [AC On the sex drive:] "Its power and its peril derive directly from the fatal fact that in itself it is the True Will in its purest form. "What then is the magical remedy? Obvious enough to the Qabalist. "Love is the law, love under will." It must be fitted at its earliest mani- festations with its proper Binah, so as to flow freely along the Path of Daleth, and restore the lost Balance. Attempts to suppress it are fatal, to sublime it are false and futile. But guided wisely from the start, by the time it becomes strong it has learnt how to use its virtues to the best advantage. -Magick Without Tears, Ch. XV So True Will = Basic Drives (Survival, Sex, Food & Drink, Mate (Love), Comfort & Happiness, -- _& Spiritual Evolution_) How then can one NOT do one's True Will? by frustrating those drives, or through Misdirection. or, "Before enlightenment, chopping wood and hauling water. After enlightenment, chopping wood and hauling water." -Zen Saying "But what wood, what water!" -Vitriol, with apologies to AC. NS> Besides I'm still physically young, (unlike you !!!!! NS> HaHaHAHAHa, [demonical Thelemic Laughter]) and NS> enlightenment is definately not something to stress about, Excuse me, did you say physically, or psychically? //Grumblegrumble...young whippersnappers...mumble...no respect...// NS> while the world of supposed Peers glare down on you and NS> scream, "What are you doing with your life" Hah! I'm still trying to figure that one out. My father still says, "So, are you still digging ditches, or whatever it is you do?" NS> My will man.... My True Will. NS> And what is that exactly? To Know, To Will, To Dare, To Be Silent.... Bingo. ... The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: L'Amour Dujour Area: Thelema To: Michael Lee 30 Aug 92 11:49:06 Subject: Re: a question to ponder UpdReq ..Gods spoke through the form Michael Lee to All They said "A question to ponder".. ML> Here's the question: Is it possible to have two _mutually ML> exclusive_ True Wills? That is, can one person's True Will ML> conflict with another's? ML> ML> As I see it, it is possible to have mutually exclusive Wills, but only ML> in the short term (i.e. One individual is put off at the expense ML> of another, but only in the current cycle of things.) Well, to take straight from Crowley's mouth, no it isn't possible. If there is a conflict of Will, then both people need to take a good look at their desires. "For Pure Will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is every way perfect." Take this carefully; it seems to imply a theory that if every man and every woman did his and her will-the true will-there would be no clashing. "Every man and every woman is a Star," and each star moves in an appointed path without interference. There is plenty of room for all; it is only disorder that creates confusion. In this I have to agree with him. If two wills are colliding, then it seems that the two individuals involved are mistaken in what they think their Will might be. I would suggest that in is not in anyone's Will to collide with another, for it only brings friction and conflict. I think that it is most likely (and most probable) that the two people involved are limiting themselves in their options and their choices. They may indeed be seeing the 'goal' of their Will, but be mistaking the method of achieving. The have not seen the multitude of space around them, and the clearest path. They have chosen the path that they know and understand, as people are wont to do. In going the long route have collided with each other - have collided with themselves, no less! -- Hope this helps. ... Security, enlist Michael Lee in the Eternity Brigade. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: L'Amour Dujour Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 30 Aug 92 12:09:08 Subject: True will UpdReq ..Gods spoke through the form Josh Norton to Ian Kesser They said "Traffic".. JN> The problem I have with most definitions of the Great Work is that JN> they interpret it entirely in terms of individual personal advantage JN> (i.e. becoming "initiated", "doing one's true will", "knowing the JN> H.G.A.", etc.). While this is no doubt correct as far as it goes, it JN> seems to me to be a limited view of the matter. JN> The subject is usually spoken of as "_participation_ in the Great JN> Work". If we are participating in something, that implies that there .. .. .. JN> lot of questions, a few of which are: JN> Can we, as individuals, come to attain some understanding of the JN> larger purpose of the Great Work? JN> If so, what are these larger goals? Are there interim goals for the JN> immediate future (say, the next century or so), and other long-term JN> goals? JN> Who or what defines these goals? JN> How does our work as individuals fit into these larger aspects of the JN> Great Work? Each person needs to decide that himself, in my opinion. It's part of the stage of finding one's Will. In my own thoughts, I have already defined a lot of those goals. On a personal level, I want to make my own actions to be a living example of being free. Of living within the structure of life (unlike my own past) yet on my own terms, living as I choose to live. Being true to myself in every sense of the word. Sacrificing not a penny to the expectations of anyone (including rebellion for the sake thereof), but giving every part of myself into the ground I choose to stand on. On a larger level, I want to bring about .. well, freedom. [Yes, I'm just so original ..] I don't care if Thelema ever becomes the biggest faith alive. But I'm going to work to see that every person has the ability to choose their own faith, their own belief system. Not only the ability to do so, but the education to do so. I want to see (in my lifetime) children growing up, able to choose from a multitude of the options around them; not having to search through the dusty shelves of used book stores to find a book; not having to maintain counter-culture persona to live as they so choose; not having to break the chains of a system they didn't choose, just to find out someone of other systems. Basically, I want the term 'Religious Freedom' to mean something, and 'Freedom of Choice' to include options to choose from. Until a person can stumble across a good bookstore these days, 'Religious Freedom' means "Choose your flavor of Christianity" and 'Freedom of Choice' means "Here's the options we find acceptable". I want all the options available to all people. The 'search' is indeed an important part of our education, but it's also supportive of the groups doing their best to keep us in dark corners. ... The Sky is alight from the dark, and in flows the Fire & Light. --- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: L'Amour Dujour Area: Thelema To: Vitriol 30 Aug 92 12:43:10 Subject: Re: work, will...wha? UpdReq ..Gods spoke through the form Vitriol to L'amour Dujour They said "Work, will...and just wh".. This the third time BW has locked up on me, and I'm gonaa have to retype this entire epilogue again. I even went out (just now) and looked to see if I could recover any temp files, etc. I think it's conflicting with my cheap EMS driver, which I don't need anymore anyway (needed it for OLX.) Vi> I know what you mean about speculating about so important a matter. Vi> And yet, without some idea of what we're doing, why do it? (Hint: AL Vi> I:44) Sheesh. Yeah, but it would be nice to have a clue once in a while. I thought it was us who were supposed to 'work unassuaged of purpose', not that our work should make us feel purposeless - rather as if anything we should earthly desire is conflicting with what we need. Not being on the higher planes, I can't see if all that I'm doing is going to make me any better, and I'm losing all the things that have made me what I am, every step I take. I don't really 'know' anything, nor do I desire anything other than a clearer sense of the self, a peace within. The things that I seem to be working towards aren't desires so much as things I recognize as development on my path. I just went through a Harvest of a lot of things that I need to leave behind, and I'm not too pleased. The changes keep coming, the work goes on, and sometimes I feel like sitting down and dying. Work a spell and go back 4 years to my chaotic, uncaring self and stay there until eternity. Vi> _At this point in time_ my Great Work involves realizing my Greater Vi> Potentiality (-ies). Later, after K&C, that may not be the same. .. .. .. Vi> way for you _to_ work! Of course, if you contemplate undertaking the Vi> Ordeal of the Abyss, you'll probably be working on balancing those Vi> strengths and weaknesses in yourSelf. Already am. Balancing those parts of myself is also the road to Tiphareth, and I've been working on that for quite a while. It hasn't been until the last season that I've seen those changes, but at least they're coming. (I've had a few people tell me of things that they see me as being strong in... things I couldn't even spell 2 years ago! ) -- Gee, when I re-wrote this thing, It came out completely different. Interesting. Wish I could find that old one, just to compare notes. ... Open mouth, insert shoe store, echo into eternity. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vitriol Area: Thelema To: L'Amour Dujour 30 Aug 92 08:30:08 Subject: Re: love under will UpdReq -=> L'amour Dujour sent a message to Josh Norton on 08-29-92 18:10 <=- -=> Re: Re: love under will <=- LD> "and just who is this Will person, anyway?" "Is he cute?" LD> Fine, I'll bite. But not _too_ hard, I hope! JN> though doing so has the flavor of the Devil quoting Scripture. Actually, that's what I feel like when I debate with my JW co-worker. LD> I would define Love as the bringing together into one essence two LD> separate and distinct concepts, in both a magickal and mundane sense. I see no difference between this and forging the `magickal link', do you? LD> This would make Love under Will be the uniting of the separate LD> realities, of separate understandings, of separate physical forms LD> under the guidance of the Will of the person, in an attempt to bring LD> the person (and the world at large) one step further in LD> understanding.. which is Love, the uniting of the concept and the LD> conceptor. Hmm... I see this as a subset of Josh's view of Love under Will. LD> This would make "Love is the Law, Love under Will" to be the Great LD> Work, the premise of the entire thing. To bring each person one step LD> farther in the comprehension of the entirety of existance. To bring LD> each person farther to "Unite by thine Art so that all disappear." Thus, viewing it from Malkuth, you are be Working on `uniting by your art', striving towards Kether, but from the POV of Kether (? well, somewhere `up there') you're Working on manifesting the Highest's Will in Malkuth. As your POV rises, your perceptions change as they are filtered by each Sphere's "lens". Heisenberg's Principle applies on all levels. (Or so it will seem to us, here below the Abyss.) But the other half of Coagula is still Solve. It may be someone else's Will to do otherwise than to unite, at least in the way that you would. And while their Work might be very different than yours, maybe even opposed to it, it would still be `doing God's work', or put another way, it would still fall under "Love under will". Put is this way: In the sentence "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law," one must first determine who "thou" is! ... The raging of the stormy sea, and the destructive sword ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vitriol Area: Thelema To: Michael Lee 30 Aug 92 08:30:10 Subject: A question to ponder UpdReq -=> Michael Lee sent a message to All on 08-28-92 14:22 <=- -=> Re: A question to ponder <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. ML> As I see it, it is possible to have mutually exclusive Wills, but only ML> in the short term (i.e. One individual is put off at the expense ML> of another, but only in the current cycle of things.) I agree, at this point anyway. (I reserve the right to eat my words down the road. ) See my post to L'amour du Jour. Love is the law, love under will. ... Some are Born to sweet delight ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vitriol Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 30 Aug 92 08:30:12 Subject: Traffic UpdReq "The Great Work is the uniting of opposites. It may mean the uniting of the soul with God, of the microcosm with the macrocosm, of the female with the male, of the ego with the non-ego -- or what not." Crowley, Magick Without Tears. Now, he rather neatly sidesteps the issue in Chapter 2 ("The Necessity of Magick for All"), by ending up saying that you're already doing it, so you might as well do it right. (You Beast, you.) ... Drive your cart & your plow over the bones of the dead. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Michael Lee Area: Thelema To: Liliani 31 Aug 92 12:31:10 Subject: Right & Wrong UpdReq ML>This personalized nature of "Right" and "Wrong" ML>seems (at least to me) to ML>disregard the collective, connected nature of the universe. L> But remember how BIG that universe is. Can you L> affect it, whatever you L> decide to do? What is the effect of Adolf Hitler on our galaxy in L> 1,000,000 of our years? The size of the universe is completely irrelevant to me when another persons actions affect me. The only thing that is relevant is whether you are doing something to "hurt" me (physically, psychologically, or psychically), or others to whom I have some special interest in. ML> For folks out there familiar with I. Asimov, the natuer of ML>the "Zeroeth Law" is not accounted for (i.e. Niether from ML>action or lack of action should one let harm come to ML>humankind). L> But Asimov's laws were for robots, please, who lacked judgement and L> therefore had to have a substitute built in. The whole point of the "zeroeth" law was to show that some _judgement_ was required. The zeroeth law was not something programmed into a robot, but was something reasoned from the other three. Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that Thelema, as it sometimes is interpreted, is incomplete. There is no concept of "Duty". (I would interpret Thelema as having "Duty" as a subset). L> Situational morality is found in every moral system. After all, the L> extreme anti abortion groups claim to follow an L> absolute morality, yet L> they think it is okay to abuse a 14 year old L> pregnant girl into staying L> that way no matter how much it harms her, and some L> think it is all right L> to throw firebombs. Absolute morality has been L> used, over the ages, to L> justify an awful lot of imoral actions. Perhaps there is an absolute L> morality, but who determines what it is? The goal L> does not justify the L> means, not the means justify the goal. If there L> is an absolute, in my L> not so humble opinion, it is to act in love. Just because we have a collective inability to tap into the universal law of right and wrong does not mean that there is no such thing. The relative nature of morality is _not_ because there is no absolute right and wrong, but is simply a result of our inability to gain clear insight into the true nature of right and wrong. Without this true nature, "morality" is nothing more than overt power. As for the "ends not justifying the means"... I believe sometimes it does. Let's take an extreme. If my true will defines a particular end,then all means are appropriate towards that end. No? ML>PEACE! (Through Superior Firepower) L> Violence is the last refuge.... Actaully, I think it's "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." Anyway, if I'm stronger than you, there is very little you can do which can affect my freedom or restrict my action. All "peace" flows from the barrel of a gun. It's just determing what sort of peace you want. Michael Drive defensively. Buy a tank. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718