From: Azoth Area: Thelema To: Kreizenski 26 Jun 92 21:12:00 Subject: Does anyone know UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. K > Where a copy of "Magick", currently out of print, is available??? K > Crowley, Magick in T and P, and Book 4 together.... If you can stand to wait, Weiser will be reprinting _Magick_ this Fall, reportedly including some previously unpublished corrections and revisions by Crowley. The paperback printing which was advertised in their last catalog has been changed to one in hardback, as well. Price is expected to be around $40. (BTW, they're also reprinting the Equinox I and Blue starting about August, $400+$75, hardbound, and I've heard rumours about a soft one from JD Holmes, $200 or so, 'soon'). Hmmm. Serpent's will shortly be listing an original 1929 MTP (subscriber's booklets rebound in hard covers about 1931) for about $700, if you're interested in such, or your local Crown might have the $10 reprint. I've got a soft _Book_4_, if you just need that, or all of it for download. Love is the law, love under will. ___ X BABBLE v1.0 X Use the Force, Luke...Trust your feelings...Let go... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Azoth Area: Thelema To: Paul Hume 26 Jun 92 21:31:02 Subject: Eight Cabala UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Judging from a number of your previous posts, you're more than usually well educated in Qabala and related matter. Perhaps in your studies you've come across material relating to a hypothetical pre-Jewish (pre-Provence, in any case) Tree of 8 sephiroth? Idries Shah makes some mention of this so-called 'Cabala of Eight', to which he assigns Sufi (what else?) origin, possibly as a more or less direct transmission of earlier Gnostic sources. Other than rather brief references to ostensible Gnostic elements in the early Hekaloth texts in studies by Rabbi Kaplan and G. Scholem, and a speculative mention in Scott's _People_Of_The_Secret_, I've been unable to find any substantive texts treating of this tradition. Crowley/Fortune/Regardie/Gray make no mention of an octal Tree, that I recall, though 666 may have been on the edge of it with his work on the Pa Kua. My interest stems from a simple conceptual discontinuity: if we accept the Mythos of the Abyss which underlies much GD and Thelemic thought, and the position that such Dualism as obtains 'below' the Abyss has NO bearing on trans-Abyssal Reality, then _what_in_all_the_hells_ are we doing with the Supernal dichotomy of Chokmah/Binah? Though I'm probably more Chaotician than Cabalist, the whole thing smells of Osirian meddling, IMHO: let's just replace Daath/Knowledge/Gnosis at the Crown with a nice harmonic duality, and not worry about transcending our ego-bounded mentation! And, oh yes, while we're at it, let's lock the Gate to the NightSide of the Tree, and throw away the Key... Hmmmph. Anyway, I'm very suspicious, both of my own grasp of Qabala, and of Qabala's grasp of me. Any Light you can shed on either sources of the 8-fold Tree, or its transformation into the 10, would be very greatly appreciated, as would any critique you might care to offer re my logic or lack thereof. Love is the law, love under will. ___ X BABBLE v1.0 X You have the right to remain Silent. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Kreizenski Area: Thelema To: Karl Lembke 28 Jun 92 10:35:02 Subject: Re: Creation/Destruction UpdReq KL\>Creation can be achieved by destruction. KL\>The joke in which the sculptor, asked how he carved that angel, replies KL\> "Simple; I merely cut away everything that didn't look like an angel!" KL\>IOW, -"Simple; I merely destroyed those parts that didn't look like what I KL\>trying to create!"- KL\>But this destruction can't be considered to be a restoral of balance KL\>unless you're willing to postulate that the block of marble in the joke KL\>has some Platonic ideal of an angel buried in it from the get-go, and that KL\>only by some unbalancing accident was that form concealed. KL\>Or am I totally off base? Your points are good and fine, in their own standing. The only problem lies in the replying to a post in the midst of a conversation, having evidently missed a lot of the rest of the conversation.... In this conversation, everyone agreed with the points you named above. The disagreement lied in whether destruction was a valid means of doing anything, without a creative goal. (scultor does not attempt to destroy the marble in which he is carving, he attempts to create an angel.) My point to him lie in the bounds of.... Destruction serves a purpose when you are restoring a balance that has been altered. You are not creating a new balance, you are destroying an item that has altered the balance. No creative goal, this is one of the cases where destruction can stand on it's own right..... Is the conversation, and my reply, making sense now? Thank you for your reply, regardless, for you made your point elegantly. * OLX 2.2 * And there you go, thinking we were making sense! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Kreizenski Area: Thelema To: Karl Lembke 28 Jun 92 10:41:04 Subject: Re: POLITICAL CORRECTNES UpdReq KL\>Let me get this straight... KL\>Gays in the closet: not good; KL\> gays in the cabinet: good... I don't think you've got it too STRAIGHT, but ...! :-)! Alright, this is a bit off-topic. Time to quit. * OLX 2.2 * Here boy.. here boy... now sit! ..Good little Crowley! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Kreizenski Area: Thelema To: Azoth 28 Jun 92 10:45:06 Subject: Does anyone know UpdReq AZ\>If you can stand to wait, Weiser will be reprinting _Magick_ this Fall, AZ\>reportedly including some previously unpublished corrections and revisions AZ\>by Crowley. The paperback printing which was advertised in their last catal AZ\>has been changed to one in hardback, as well. Price is expected to be aroun AZ\>$40. (BTW, they're also reprinting the Equinox I and Blue starting about AZ\>August, $400+$75, hardbound, and I've heard rumours about a soft one from AZ\>JD Holmes, $200 or so, 'soon'). AZ\>Hmmm. Serpent's will shortly be listing an original 1929 MTP (subscriber's AZ\>booklets rebound in hard covers about 1931) for about $700, if you're Sheesh! Are they gonna put out a book that I can buy with one paycheck? I hope that these are hard-cover pricing. I'm a firm believer in paper-back.... AZ\>interested in such, or your local Crown might have the $10 reprint. I've AZ\>got a soft _Book_4_, if you just need that, or all of it for download. a soft Book 4? As opposed to a dominating Book 4? * OLX 2.2 * Open shell, choose icon, select mode, and just fall out.. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Paul Hume Area: Thelema To: Peter Giordano 28 Jun 92 10:52:16 Subject: Re: Creation/Destruction Rec'd UpdReq Peter - I dunno if it just a case of one's own ox getting gored (ie. I can stand a power-tripper in someone else's "current" with more equanimity than I can stand one in Thelema) or else if the "dissonance" is just more infuriating - as you said "made me promise never to do anything that would violate my will, and then turned around and tried to make me do EVERTHING that was against my will". When someone talks the talk in Thelema, and then proceeds to not only fail to walk the walk, but indeed, bids fair to do the anti-walk, it honks me off far more than when someone who DOESN'T espouse "Do what thou wilt..." pulls the same moves. Sorry to post just another long-winded "Yeah, I agree" post. I spent a few hours last week getting the bad taste of this kind of experience out of someone's mouth (not magick, just talk and hopefully a counter-example) and its left me sensitive to the problem. Paul 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Paul Hume Area: Thelema To: Azoth 28 Jun 92 10:58:24 Subject: Re: Eight Cabala UpdReq Azoth - Hmmm...a diagram of two interlaced squares is nagging at me...if I could just remember the context. I don't mean the Ogdoadic model from the Aurom Solis, though I suspect this is based on the same source...damn damn damn. Theorizing about the Supernals seems analogous to the real fringey theoretical physicists' work. Though in a sense, the Bohrs, Einsteins, and Hawkings of the world may be said (if one is feeling really silly) to have cross the Abyss (with Hod as their "natural sphere"). While still in base-10, Frater Achad's "rewrite" of the Tree challenges the terrible ordeal concept of the Abyss, which he suggests is itself an Osirian concept. All hifalutin' magick of the first water. I'll be happy if I make shodan in aikido and adeptus minor (or reasonable facsimile thereof) in this lifetime (g). If Josh Norton is catching this discussion, maybe he can add some throw weight to this question (the relevance of the Abyss model). It figured in some of his published work. If I run across that 8-node model, I'll cite you a source, natch. Paul 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frater Q.A.A. Area: Thelema To: Paul Hume 28 Jun 92 18:42:42 Subject: Wm. Blake UpdReq Do what thou will shall be the whole of the Law. Hey Paul, Perhaps this should be on DCMagic but as it pertains mainly to the Camp and our group, I'd like to keep it among Thelemites. I'll try to reach you by phone but the line is quite busy. William Blake is quite excellent in his expression of that beyond the veil of mundane, and reminds me very much of the information I am receiving in my study of Temple of Solomon The King Book I. In fact I was quite taken back when I opened up the book to "The Sick Rose", and found several lines that were used by COIL, in their newest production _Love's Secret Domain_ in the title track. You would probably by very interested in hearing it, and if this is the case I'll bring with me next time. My main concern in this posting is that you and any other Thelemite who might be interested, review Liber LXV Chapter I: 56-57. I need only to ask you to take a look at the events of last evening and today to confirm why. Tornadoes in Texas, Earthquakes in California, and not to mention what happened right here in MD. Oh well, There will never be a Doubt as to the truth of experience. Hope to talk to you and Dave soon- Love is the Law. Will/Love. Frater Q.A.A. Ecstasy delivers Secret Knowledge. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Azoth Area: Thelema To: Paul Hume 27 Jun 92 22:06:00 Subject: Re: Eight Cabala UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. PH> Hmmm...a diagram of two interlaced squares is nagging at PH> me...if I could just remember the context. I don't mean PH> the Ogdoadic model from the Aurom Solis, though I suspect PH> this is based on the same source...damn damn damn. Nothing similar springs to mind.... What I was contemplating was something like the standard Tree, minus the Supernals, and with the Paths to them from Chesed, Geburah & Tiphereth terminating instead in Daath, which would then actually resume Binah (as Sophia), much as described in the _Bahir_, where Binah is referenced as the _Root_ of the Tree. This provides a very suggestive correlation, with Nuit at the top of the Tree, Hadit at Malkuth (there are some interesting bits in the _Bahir_ which might be seen to suggest this) and Horus living around Tiphareth. Now _that_ has a sort of 'primal' feel about it, especially as the correspondences of the remaining sephiroth are shifted slightly but significantly as a result. PH> Theorizing about the Supernals seems analogous to the real fringey PH> theoretical physicists' work. My point, exactly. Postulating sephiroth beyond the Abyss, itself rings like so much foolishness-potential to my ears. 'The Tao which can be described is not' etc.. Hawking's work on now-you-see-them/now- you-don't quantum black holes still makes me chuckle. PH> While still in base-10, Frater Achad's "rewrite" of the PH> Tree challenges the terrible ordeal concept of the Abyss, PH> which he suggests is itself an Osirian concept. I still don't quite know what to make of Achad's Tree, and I'm even willing, on alternate Tuesdays, to consider that his Key to Al may be off track. Sure, but what do I know from Nuthin? Judgement withheld, due to lack of comprehension.... PH> All hifalutin' magick of the first water. I'll be happy if PH> I make shodan in aikido and adeptus minor (or reasonable PH> facsimile thereof) in this lifetime (g). A guy gave me a short, brief (abridged) demonstration of aikido some years ago....ended up with me on my knees in considerable pain, and him not even breaking a sweat (the simplest sort of wrist-lock kind of thing, but incredibly effective.) Gnarly stuff; subtle. PH> If Josh Norton is catching this discussion, maybe he can add some throw PH> weight to this question (the relevance of the Abyss model). PH> It figured in some of his published work. I've got a number of his documents, mostly relating to the Temple system, particularly the one on 'Generating the Abyss Experience.' Fascinating work; sorta like an Enochian Rinzai hammer.... Ia, Ben! Care to comment? PH> If I run across that 8-node model, I'll cite you a source, natch. Thanks in advance. I've found much in the earliest Qabala to move me toward major reconsideration of a Model we all seem to take for granted. Love is the law, love under will. ___ X BABBLE v1.0 X Left, Left, I hadda good brain but it Left.... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Merle Corey Area: Thelema To: Anthra Andromda 28 Jun 92 15:41:32 Subject: Software testers UpdReq AA> I'm writting a major program to assist in Qabalistic AA> and other general Magick work, but I need three or four AA> others to help test it and give me ideas for additional features. I'd be interested. What info do you need to send it. AA> So...if anyone is interested, and has EGA/VGA graphics AA> and a mouse, let me know. For your efforts you will AA> receive a control (no registration required) copy of the finished program. Not yet, but probably in the next 2 to 3 months. Merle 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frater Q.A.A. Area: Thelema To: Nekhekh 29 Jun 92 14:47:30 Subject: Re: MUSCIAN EH? UpdReq I would think it wouldn't be too difficult to give a rather fantstic rendition, of Liber Al, considering the growth of the Thelemic Current, and the amount of muscians, artists, it encapsulates, one might even be able to gather the force of magickal muscians such as Current 93, Coil, and Psychic TV(who did an excellent job with _AT STOCKHOLM_) in on it. An international working gathered and composed in ritual. A sonic story that weaves the foundation for exceptance of the Law into the minds of listeners, and perhaps just a damn beautiful interpretation. (Did anyone here P. Gabriel's composition for the soundtrack to _Last_Temptation_Of_Christ_ ? It is called _PASSION_.) Perhaps I'm just too much of a musical freak, but I go into trance so heavily from Musick of all kinds, it would be nice to memorize those lines in Al with such a background. 93 93/93 Neuro Sonic. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vitriol Area: Thelema To: Peter Giordano 29 Jun 92 06:29:18 Subject: Re: POINTS OF LIGHT Rec'd UpdReq -=> Peter Giordano sent a message to Vitriol on 06-20-92 13:31 <=- -=> Re: POINTS OF LIGHT <=- PG> What do u mean? Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Peter, once again: I read some 400-600 messages about every three days. On the average, I upload about a dozen messages of my own each time I get online. Without a context, I have no way of knowing what the topic of discussion is. Even if you don't have an offline reader with a quoting capability, you could still manually quote the message you're replying to. Otherwise, I'm afraid my answer will continue to be: ??? Love is the Law, Love under Will. 418 * BWave/QWK v0.96 * =+=Vitriol=+= 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vitriol Area: Thelema To: Tau Ursa 29 Jun 92 06:29:20 Subject: Re: Thelema 101 Rec'd UpdReq -=> Tau Ursa sent a message to Vitriol on 06-20-92 18:25 <=- -=> Re: Thelema 101 <=- TU> 'Tis true. I am in accord. you are in accord. We are in accord. TU> Honda...you did it again. Say what? Not THIS redwhiteandblue blooded American boy. No riceburners for me, thanks. If I'm gonna get ripped off by an automaker, I'll at least keep the majority of my money in the US. 418 * BWave/QWK v0.96 * =+=Vitriol=+= 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vitriol Area: Thelema To: Tony Iannotti 29 Jun 92 06:29:22 Subject: Re: Just another run by Rec'd UpdReq -=> Tony Iannotti sent a message to Frater Almost on 06-22-92 08:27 <=- -=> Re: Just another run by <=- TI> I wonder if there is a place for Thelema-Chat as a new echo? Maybe TI> Thelema-Tech would be better, and just leave all the chat here, rather TI> than try to move it. [Sigh] Duly chastized... 418 * BWave/QWK v0.96 * =+=Vitriol=+= 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vitriol Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 29 Jun 92 06:29:24 Subject: Re: Lucifer myths UpdReq -=> Josh Norton sent a message to Vitriol on 06-23-92 22:03 <=- -=> Re: Lucifer myths <=- >A god as a colony, or hive, mind/spirit, you might say. JN> Individuals can combine to produce an entity with its own JN> individuality. I've been a temporary part of such entities on many JN> occasions -- though all the other participants were (I think) not JN> incarnate at the time. I don't see any reason why such an entity JN> couldn't reach a scope where the term "god" would be applicable to it. Which brings up the flipside: was "god" the correct term for me to have used in the first place? Hmmm... Maybe. I'd rather not get into defining that particular term (can you say "quicksand"?), but I think that it's close enough. Perhaps all "gods", as being "below" Kether, are synergistic entities of that sort. It's always dangerous to generalize. 418 * BWave/QWK v0.96 * =+=Vitriol=+= 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vitriol Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 29 Jun 92 06:29:26 Subject: Re: Care Bears UpdReq -=> Josh Norton sent a message to Madhatter on 06-24-92 14:16 <=- -=> Re: Care Bears <=- JN> There's several other paraphrases or outright thefts from obscure JN> medieval mystical works. For instance, Joseph Campbell quotes a text JN> called "The Book of the 24 Philosophers": Oh, well obviously Aiwaz wrote that one, too! ;-) 418 * BWave/QWK v0.96 * =+=Vitriol=+= 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frater Q.A.A. Area: Thelema To: All 26 Jun 92 18:58:32 Subject: Manners UpdReq Do what thou wilt shalt by the whole of the law. Merle called me earlier today to make arrangements for tommorrow, and in the conversation he brought up a ver important point: You never introduced yourself or anything you just jumped in like you know what was going-on. I thought you had just been lurking in the backgroud reading all the posts. Nobody likes a sneak. Well now if nobosody minds Id like to change that past and rewrite a new one. So here goes........ Hi 'yall, I just got on to Magick-net (about 2-weeks ago), and I feel very satisfied to find a place that I can correspond all those wacked out Truths that nobody around me seems to comprehend. It's nice to see a few individuals of like minded orientation, that I can chat/share/learn with and from. I go by two alias's at the moment, as I have yet to get these Darn Speed Offline reader to work, and in my overzealousnous to absorb all the information available to me, I logged onto every system in town. (That's o.k. though, I started out calling BaphoNet until I saw posts for these local boards). I go by Frater Q.A.A. on tidmadt and cathouse, and Neuro Sonic on Abyss and Zonzr. The reasoning for this is that hopefully Q.A.A. will soon be retiring around august if everything goes according to plan. So Neuro Sonic will then become the standard by which I am known. I have always been interested in the supernatural, and remember very fondly those younger days back in elementary/Jr. high school when I would sneak out to the library and peruse the Occult sections incognito. When I got older, my study of Enochian and Crowleyean Magick, kept up reading in the dark until the wee hours of the morn, when I would have to go to school and sleep in some of my classes. (Aced 'em anyway.) I gave up all studies after a bought with some fundies that left me cursing my involvement. But like climbing a greased ladder, I keep sliding, resting and climbing back up hoping that this time everything will materialize. Only recently, due to the help and mental support of MagickNet, have I been able to seriously act on following the Great Work, and I hope that I will be able to learn as much for practical application of my magick as I enjoy the comradery and general B.S. Didn't mean to be a snot, so party on..... Do What Thou Wilt............. 93 93/93 Frater Q.A.A. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Kreizenski Area: Thelema To: All 27 Jun 92 13:32:26 Subject: Does anyone know UpdReq Where a copy of "Magick", currently out of print, is available??? Crowley, Magick in T and P, and Book 4 together.... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Kreizenski Area: Thelema To: Tony Iannotti 27 Jun 92 11:17:06 Subject: Re: Metro Action Rec'd UpdReq TI\>... If nobody uses it, there's a reason. Just as a side note, yes, there is a reason. It's because every single one of us needs to find out WHY no one uses it.... * OLX 2.2 * Whirling Fires light her eyes, blood flows and never lies 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Neuro Sonic Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 26 Jun 92 21:22:20 Subject: Re: Lucifer myths UpdReq Does the name Nazi Germany or Roman Catholic Church ring a bell.... ^JN> I don't see any reason why such a state of collective manifestation couldn't reach a godlike potential. (or somethin' along those lines.) -Neuro 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Neuro Sonic Area: Thelema To: All 27 Jun 92 01:41:50 Subject: Fork in the road UpdReq Since I haven't had access to the Equinox's until recently, I have alot of questions that I'd like to work out. I've always been drawn to the shadowy nature of things out of my curiosity and desire to conquer all of my hidden fears, this has allowed me to destroy most of my Dogma and also allowed me to feel more protected and informed than most people around me. I'm sure people are going to get tired of this confessional nature I've begun to show, but since I'm realitively a newbie, whether I act like it (it's probably obvious, with all this enthusiasm dripping from my ASCII) I just got to get it out of my system. Anyway... As I was saying, I'm really rather attracted to the workings of Nightside, and Daath. But I still want to attain the K&C of my HGA. I have recently finished Fork in the road, and noticed the reference to the Black Octopus of the LHP. This makes me wonder as to whether my inquiries into Chaos (8 pointed star) or just general Nightside LHP is healthy. I'm not particularly interested in Obtaining Power over others, or using Magick to Harm or gain Material wealth. I'm just interested in exploring all those areas of the Psyche and Magickal universe that make me curious... (curiousty killed the Cat, and we all saw what happened to Pandora.) If possible I'd like some feedback from both sides as to what my options are. I've noticed that Fra.: Nachash and a few others seem to be well in control of their LHP inquiries and I was hoping they might give me some pointers. Perhaps even Tony has something to say, in regards to Thelemic perspectives on Balanced Attainment. 93 93/93 Neuro Sonic 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Zildar Area: Thelema To: Paul Hume 26 Jun 92 06:46:38 Subject: hi UpdReq Hi Paul, just checked into this bbs. Looks interesting. Hope to see you Saturday. Dave... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Peter Giordano Area: Thelema To: Paul Hume 30 Jun 92 09:44:02 Subject: Re: Creation/Destruction Sent UpdReq I thank you for your support, sir. It's a funny thing too, I keep trying to walk the walk as well as talk the talk. Some people think I'm a little crazy. But this is such a beautiful philosophy, and I don't want to sound like a street corner maniac, but I want to spread the good news. Some people are actually listening to me. Peter 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Nekhekh Area: Thelema To: Frater Almost 30 Jun 92 08:07:04 Subject: Re: CARE BEARS Rec'd UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. In a frustrated message to Josh Norton you wrote: > You don't quite seem to understand.... You see, to hear the voice of > God is not like hearing some-one speak.... It convey's what It wants > to convey in purely Symbolic Terms with NO WORDS WHATSOEVER! (Nope, > not even in Enochian!) God speaks via symbol. And, after following this little thread between you and the cyber-critter that named hirself after the only Emperor of North America I wonder if you've forgotten: "The fool readeth this Book of the Law, and its comment: & he understandeth it not." III, 63 i.e., Oh my Brother, don't you have anything better to do than to waste energy feeding the slave morality of someone living under an Osirian Formula? Love is the law, love under will. Nekhekh 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frater Almost Area: Thelema To: Nekhekh 30 Jun 92 19:05:54 Subject: Re: CARE BEARS Sent UpdReq You are right.... Josh is a slave. He can't accept Liber AL so I just won't bother any more. And besides.... My message wasn't written in furious rage.... I was just operating under the mis-apprehension that Joshy can't tell true thought from shit and, apparently, I was right. God doesn't have a language, ya know! ;) Pax. 93 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Tau Ursa Area: Thelema To: Vitriol 30 Jun 92 23:40:30 Subject: Re: Thelema 101 Sent UpdReq Oh! I thought by now Honda was made in the US. Doesn't Japan own the Federal Reserve Bank? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718