From: Zbigniew Nitecki Area: Base of Set To: Albert Saperstein 14 Aug 93 18:21:36 Subject: ToS Rec'd UpdReq Exactly!!! Or you can cheat and look in the little packet and find out who did it, While the Gods aren't looking of course. Xeper! Zbig 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Rakshasa Area: Base of Set To: Albert Saperstein 14 Aug 93 11:26:00 Subject: ToS Rec'd UpdReq AS> Get a life... Now that's not nice! Which is worse... a man who has an honest question and asks it honestly, or a man who denigrates him for it? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Rakshasa Area: Base of Set To: Zbigniew Nitecki 14 Aug 93 11:27:00 Subject: Re: Thanks UpdReq ZN> Quite a large pair of boots to fill. Hope you get your stuff ZN> together. ZN> Talk to you in a while. Well, you know what they say; big boots... It looks like things are coming together pretty well... with any luck I should have things settled within a few weeks. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Mr. PSYOP MindWar Guy Area: Base of Set To: Rakshasa 14 Aug 93 15:54:00 Subject: Re: Free Love UpdReq Ra> I think you may be overstating the case a bit there. There were people Ra> who tried to move beyond the monogamous patriarchal mode and experiment Ra> with open relationships and group "love-ins." Not all the women doing Ra> this were coerced or raped after being drugged... some of them were Ra> idealists who thought they were doing their part to end the "stagnant" Ra> and "repressive" family model which existed at that time. I agree that many idealistic women were thinking in such a way, but despite their being consensual in their behaviour, they were victims of a fraudulent philosophy that promised more than what it did deliver. I tend to think of them as being coerced and raped not as much by drug-peddling, horny men, but moreso as victims of an entirely fraudulent movement that exploited their vaginas and catered to the sexually-selfish desires of their male counterparts. Ra> Indeed, their efforts met with at least some success. It was almost Ra> unheard of before the late 60s for a couple to live together without the Ra> benefit of marriage. Now it's quite a common occurrence. The degree of "success" of such a result is subject to interpretation, would you not agree? Ra> Gays and lesbians are also facing a much more open society now than in the Ra> days of yore (thanks to the bravery of a few during the Stonewall Riots of Ra> 1969). But what are the beneficial aspects and results of such a change in society *for* the society? Ra> One must be careful to avoid generalizations... they're easily deflated. True, but they are not intellectually worthless as a whole either. Their shortcomings should simply be cited openly and dealt with responsibly. Ra> However, I do agree with you that many people used this "freedom" as Ra> another form of control. I'd recommend reading The Family by Ed Sanders Ra> and The Manson File by Nicholas Shreck for an example of how Charlie did Ra> it. Good ol' Charlie. I'll check into these suggested readings. Thank you. Ra> And of course many of the people who support open orgies are male and Ra> sexually frustrated... as a quick peek at any adult BBS will tell you. This only further corroborates my view of the entire "free love" movement. The whole thing was/is an open orgy directed (whether by accident or design) by sexually frustrated men, and easily swayed, impressionable girls and women. Any exceptions to this, I would expect to be rare. Ra> (I'm giving you this information from hearsay, of course... I never logged Ra> onto an adult BBS seeking sex...) Yeah, you've just *read* about them in books! Right? :-) MP> But "Free Love" is only a fantastic ideal. It does not exist. MP> Perhaps it is a great idea, but it *cannot* be practiced. RA> Again you're using generalizations. RA> I think an open polygamous household (i.e. a group of people all living RA> together and sleeping together whenever the mood strikes them) is RA> certainly possible. Agreed, but does such a situation primarily focus on love or sex? If it is "Free Love" you are attempting to draw a possible picture of, I'm not certain at this point that your example is tight. One of my core beliefs about the "Free Love" movement is that it is founded on an errant principle which claims that love can be achieved via sexual activities. If this were true, we'd have more love in our society today than we have room to put it. Instead, we have more dissatisfaction, divorce, anger, and hatred *despite* all of it. It is of my opinion that love can never be "free" and must be achieved by means of diligent efforts comprised of the subjugation of "self" for the benefit of another, or others. The "Free Love" movement was/is nothing but a great misconception given the label of the often misdefined and misunderstood term "love". It had/has nothing to do with love as it was/is fueled by extreme self-gratification. In my younger days, I believed in and pursued the ideal of virginity until marriage, but was never satisfied with the reasons given me (by my family and the Christian church) to do so. I knew there had to be something more to it than "Because God said so." Over the years, I bounced enough ideas off of people of various opinions that I was able to formulate an intellectual base that did support my ideal. It is best represented by the following definition. "Love is unselfishly choosing the highest good for another." I realised that "love" and "hate" were not antonymous but rather "love" and "selfishness" were instead. With that philosophy in mind, I was then able to observe my own thoughts and desires and judge them accordingly. If I sought to achieve "love" then I simply performed the action that was best suited to accomodate the needs of the other person/people in question. It was not difficult to recognise the fact that 1) acquiring (and possibly giving) an incurable STD, or 2) forcing upon another the choice to abort an unwanted pregnancy, or 3) causing another to risk living a life of miserable complications as the result of choosing *not* to abort, was not a "high road" to take. It was obvious to me that celibacy was the only, 100% effective and intellectually responsible choice of behaviour to accept. So I embarked on a very difficult mission in life to "not have sex for the benefit of my wife, even before I knew my wife." After all, when all was to be said and done, it would be my wife who I would have to deal with on (what I would want to be) a permanent basis, therefore it made sense to me that I would want to be found as honourable as possible when it came to dealing with her in sexual matters. As a result of my quest for love via abstinence, I learned much about humanity and its behaviourial characteristics that someone on a different course could never discover simply because the opportunities, topics, and occasions would never have arisen. Also as a result, I have lived the most cheerful life, unobstructed by the miserable complications that most people even younger than myself have encountered as a result of their desire to live a liberal rather than conservative lifestyle. People tell me that "one must touch the flame" to really understand and appreciate what life has to offer, but I can honestly look them in the eye and intellectually and respectably refute such a philosophy, using my own life as all the evidence I or anyone else will ever need. Only the untrained and undisciplined must "touch the flame" as a baby might place its hand on a hot stove. Others know it is only necessary to observe others as *they* burn *themselves* and learn from the example. Ra> I also think we can't be too quick to denigrate the recreational value of Ra> sex. What *is* the recreational value of sex? Ra> A good emotionless roll in the hay (complete with condom, of course) The HIV virus measures approximately 1/50 of 1 micron in width. Microscopic holes that can and often do pass through the entire thickness of latex condoms are common and often measure at 300 microns in width or more. With this information readily available and the widely established condom failure rate of at least 16%, how can anybody in their right mind put any faith at all in such a device, especially when their own life could be at risk? And for what? A romp in the hay? Is that all we feel we're worth? Pleeze! Condoms carry absolutely no intellectual value whatsoever, with all due respect. Ra> can be the perfect ending to a perfect night. Your sentiments are honourable, but what about the day after, when all perfect people must return to the imperfect, real world in which they live? Ra> btw... love your signoff. I'm glad! I pondered all day at work about what I was going to respond with! Of course, I couldn't allow you to top me, now could I? :-) (Imagine a Virgin Youth Culture in America Today!) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Rakshasa Area: Base of Set To: Mr. PSYOP MindWar Guy 14 Aug 93 22:58:00 Subject: Re: Free Love UpdReq MP> I agree that many idealistic women were thinking in such a way, but MP> despite MP> their being consensual in their behaviour, they were victims of a MP> fraudulent MP> philosophy that promised more than what it did deliver. I tend to MP> think of MP> them as being coerced and raped not as much by drug-peddling, horny MP> men, but MP> moreso as victims of an entirely fraudulent movement that exploited MP> their MP> vaginas and catered to the sexually-selfish desires of their male MP> counterparts. Have you ever spoken to any of these women... or had any enconter with them outside the pamphlet you quoted? If so, I'd be interested in hearing _their_ side of this story... if not, I'd question your qualifications to speak on the subject. (No offense... but it would be analogous to me, as a white male, attempting to speak authoritatively about what black women _really_ want). MP> But what are the beneficial aspects and results of such a change in MP> society MP> *for* the society? Well, the fact that 10% of our population is now a great deal more free to express itself sexually and romantically without fear of being jailed (although of course rampant homophobia still exists in this country) is certainly, IMHO, a beneficial change. MP> This only further corroborates my view of the entire "free love" MP> movement. Again... have you spoken to any people involved in this movement. Gay Talese wrote a book entitled _Thy Neighbor's Wife_ which dealt with swinging and the free love scene. I have not yet read it but have heard it's quite good. MP> at this point that your example is tight. One of my core beliefs MP> about the MP> "Free Love" movement is that it is founded on an errant principle MP> which claims MP> that love can be achieved via sexual activities. If this were true, MP> we'd have MP> more love in our society today than we have room to put it. Instead, No... "Free Love" as I have experienced it is attempting to separate sex from guilt. Let's face it, sex is a pleasurable activity (I trust you have had direct experience of this). If two people feel like enjoying each other's bodies, I see no harm in this. (Note that they both must _feel_ like it... I have no tolerance for those who would coerce others into "free love" just to get their rocks off. But I have had friends of both genders whom I wound up sleeping with just because we felt like it. We didn't wind up "lovers" but we didn't stop being friends either. Your examples seem to me to be based on generalizations and hearsay, not on facts or interviews with people who have practiced "free love.") MP> definition. "Love is unselfishly choosing the highest good for MP> another." MP> I realised that "love" and "hate" were not antonymous but rather MP> "love" and MP> "selfishness" were instead. With that philosophy in mind, I was then MP> able to MP> observe my own thoughts and desires and judge them accordingly. If I Trust me... when somebody sleeps with me, they enjoy it too!!! (stepping off macho chest-thumping crotch-grabbing soapbox) But seriously... I don't think I follow you here. I believe that love is important, but I also take the Greek view that there are many varieties of love. There is "agape" or the love between friends, and then there is "Eros" or erotic love. Love implies not doing something that would hurt the beloved. If I've always wanted to sleep with a particular friend and get a chance when sie's extremely drunk, I wouldn't take it. I would, IMHO, be running too great a chance of hurting hir. On the other hand, if we both decided to sleep together, I see no reason why our "agape" would need to become "eros." MP> What *is* the recreational value of sex? If you have to ask, you'll never know. MP> The HIV virus measures approximately 1/50 of 1 micron in width. MP> Microscopic MP> holes that can and often do pass through the entire thickness of MP> latex condoms MP> are common and often measure at 300 microns in width or more. With MP> this MP> information readily available and the widely established condom MP> failure rate MP> of at least 16%, how can anybody in their right mind put any faith at MP> all in MP> such a device, especially when their own life could be at risk? And MP> for what? MP> A romp in the hay? Is that all we feel we're worth? Pleeze! MP> Condoms carry MP> absolutely no intellectual value whatsoever, with all due respect. The AIDS virus does not float around as a disembodied entity... it is attached to the sperm via infection of the DNA (I believe... could somebody else who's more knoweldgeable in health affairs help me out here?) Anyway, condoms have been shown to be about 90 - 95% effective in preventing the spread of AIDS... and careful selection of partners also helps. (I'm not advocating abstinence, but I am advocating caution. Avoid sleeping with partners who practice unsafe behaviors like frequent unprotected intercourse or IV drug usage). Condoms are one tool in fighting the spread of AIDS... common sense is another. Both of them are necessary to preventing infection. MP> Your sentiments are honourable, but what about the day after, when MP> all perfect MP> people must return to the imperfect, real world in which they live? You seem to be generalizing that guilt is a common after-occurrence with sex. It may be for some people, but not for me, nor for the majority of people I have slept with. Xeper Kevin "Cure Your Local Virgins" 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Simon Novali Area: Base of Set To: Mr. PSYOP MindWar Guy 14 Aug 93 00:52:56 Subject: Re: Free Love UpdReq Mr. PSYOP MindWar Guy wrote in a message to Grendel Grettisson: Since you seem to be a complete idiot, I'll keep this brief. MPMG> My inclusion of the comment about "peace" and SE Asia was MPMG> only to further emphasize a fraudulence in the mindsets of MPMG> the counterculture of the 1960's. Combining two things you obviously know nothing about isn't much of a emphasis. MPMG> "Free Love" was *not* free love, it was rape. It was largely free love (for lack of a better phrase to describe what was a very wide spectrum of attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors). As for the rest--all environments have their predators and parasites. MPMG> Do you deny that America surrendered to MPMG> the Communists in SE Asia as a capitulation to its MPMG> population's outcries for "peace"? One could argue that it was the outcry against the economic dislocation the war created domestically that was the decisive voice. If you want to look for the root of poisoned idealism, that's probably a good place to start. Regards --Simon ^^ 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Rakshasa Area: Base of Set To: Simon Novali 15 Aug 93 12:18:00 Subject: Re: Free Love UpdReq SN> Since you seem to be a complete idiot, I'll keep this brief. Perhaps I should have tried that tack. SN> Combining two things you obviously know nothing about isn't much of a SN> emphasis. Indeed... I could recommend a number of good books on the subject for Mr. Psyop Mindwar Guy, particularly _Acid Dreams_ and _Born on the Fourth of July_ by Ron Kovic. That would give him a good introduction to what the sixties were really all about. SN> It was largely free love (for lack of a better phrase to describe SN> what was a very wide spectrum of attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors). SN> As for the rest--all environments have their predators and parasites. This was the point I was trying to make. I'm sure that there were men who cruised the various "Hippie Havens" looking for runaway fourteen-year old girls. There's no shortage of slime in the human species, alas. To say, however, that _every_ free love experiment was rape based on the desire of men to have women as tools and possessions is, I think, to fall prey to a gross overstatement. You also raised an important point: we haven't _defined_ free love yet. I have several friends in "open marriages" who are basically monogamous; they can sleep with others should they choose to do so, but haven't taken the opportunity as yet. I also know people who are "swingers" and people who have on occasion experimented with group sex and menages of various numbers. Finally, I know lots of people who do the ol' in-out for recreational value. I do not see how you can lump all of these together for any practical purpose Add to this, of course, my growing suspicion that MPWG has no idea of what he's talking about and you get my tentative conclusion that this discussion is an example of what a certain friend of mine calls "picking up dog droppings to examine them." 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Albert Saperstein Area: Base of Set To: Rakshasa 15 Aug 93 17:49:30 Subject: ToS Sent UpdReq Most people think New Yorkers think they're better than everybody else; they're wrong, we are. I admit it, I'm not nice. As a matter of fact, I'm a very rude and nasty son of a bitch, and I do not suffer fools at all, let alone gladly. I leave that to the Christers and the Bridge-and-Tunnel crowd. This town has a reputation to maintain. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Albert Saperstein Area: Base of Set To: Zbigniew Nitecki 15 Aug 93 17:56:58 Subject: ToS Sent UpdReq Yeah, but you know how it is: you peek, you get up to take a piss or some such thing, and they change the cards on you. anyway, I happen to know it was Giordano Bruno, in the Town Square, with a 64 pound backpack nuke. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Albert Saperstein Area: Base of Set To: Mr. PSYOP MindWar Guy 15 Aug 93 18:02:40 Subject: Re: Free Love Sent UpdReq Are you English? Are you at all familiar with the works of Wilhelm Reich? You must try a BROADER definition of sex. It isn't just the "old in-out, in-out", you know? Re: condoms: Casanova said that condoms "...are a bulwark against pleasure, and a cobweb against disease." 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Albert Saperstein Area: Base of Set To: Rakshasa 15 Aug 93 18:09:34 Subject: Re: Free Love Sent UpdReq "Picking up dog droppings to examine them": GOD, I LOVE THAT! Is that some regionalism, or did your friend just come up with it? I'm going to use that. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Upir Area: Base of Set To: Albert Saperstein 15 Aug 93 14:40:10 Subject: ToS UpdReq AS> I don't join groups, but I will advise you on the FIRST rule of magick: AS> BUY AN EGG WITHOUT HAGGLING. If you're that uptight about parting with AS> your money, they probably don't need you anyway... It's not that I am uptight about parting with money, it's just that I almost feel as though I'm paying for a faith. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Upir Area: Base of Set To: Deep Black 15 Aug 93 14:43:40 Subject: ToS UpdReq DB> It is good that you question such things if you feel uncomfortable about DB> them. Be certain about your feelings before deciding to undertake DB> Initation (my advice, anyway.) Thank you for being open minded and accepting a persons reservations about his own beliefs, and not saying something pointless and cliche such as get a life. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Upir Area: Base of Set To: Albert Saperstein 15 Aug 93 14:47:58 Subject: ToS UpdReq AS> Get a life... Sir, I belive I have already lived more of a life than you ever will. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718