From: Mr. PSYOP MindWar Guy Area: Base of Set To: Albert Saperstein 12 Aug 93 20:02:00 Subject: Re: Free Love Rec'd UpdReq AS> You mean "fraudulent" as in guns for drugs deals between US AS> Government personnel and SE Asian dope peddlers hidden from the AS> American people under the the guise of "National Security"? AS> "Fraudulent" like Air America? AS> "Fraudulent" like Nixon's Operation Sideshow? AS> Have you ever taken an oath to the United States Constitution? AS> Do you see any conflict between that oath and the Imperial AS> Presidency epitomized by Executive usurpation of the power AS> to declare war? Really, Doc... I understand what you're driving at here. Although, I will admit to some lack of effort to fully study these items of interest to which you refer, therefore a fully informed response will not be possible at this time. However, my usage of the term "fraudulent" was in exlusive reference to the concept of "free love" as espoused in the 1960's. "Fraudulent" in the sense that it is a misnomer for that which it is often used to describe. I was not intending to get involved in a debate over Viet Nam. I would probably enjoy such an exchange in the future but not at this time. My decision to include anything about SE Asia and "peace" was only to further colour my expressions concerning that of rape and "free love". It was to show that "free love" was not the only element of 1960's counterculture that was fraudulent - the "peace" movement was as well. When America cleared out of Viet Nam, peace was not achieved. Mass murder in the name of political correctness was accomplished instead. I like what Ross Perot told the Vietnamese government. "If you'd let us beat you, we'd have already turned you into a major economic force like we did with Germany and Japan." He's absolutely right! Instead, we surrendered the fight to the Communists and allowed our 58,000 to disappear in vain. Support Your Local Virgins. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Mr. PSYOP MindWar Guy Area: Base of Set To: Grendel Grettisson 12 Aug 93 20:10:00 Subject: Re: Free Love UpdReq MP> Rape was called "love." MP> Surrender to the Communists in SE Asia was called "peace". GG> What are you? A Republican? We didn't belong in 'nam. Allow people GG> to choose their own destiny as a nation. They CHOSE to be communist GG> after fighting the French. It was only our propping up of the GG> opposing monarchy that held it off for a while. My inclusion of the comment about "peace" and SE Asia was only to further emphasize a fraudulence in the mindsets of the counterculture of the 1960's. "Free Love" was *not* free love, it was rape. Do you deny that America surrendered to the Communists in SE Asia as a capitulation to its population's outcries for "peace"? I say that in a very literal sense. Besides, when America vacated the place, peace did not result. Slaughter did. John Lennon only wanted a surrender to the Communists, not peace for *all mankind*. His efforts were a ruse. And *I've* been a *huge* fan of John and Yoko's for many, many years! But I do not let my appreciation for his artistic excellence taint my political judgement. Such would be the essence of intellectual weakness. Support Your Local Virgins! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Mr. PSYOP MindWar Guy Area: Base of Set To: Rakshasa 12 Aug 93 20:17:00 Subject: Re: Free Love UpdReq Ra> MP> It was a cheap, easy way to achieve rape without having to worry Ra> MP> about somebody pressing charges against them for it. Ra> I believe somebody else said something to that effect... might have Ra> been a member of the Diggers. I'm in agreement with you there, Ra> though... I've noticed that many of those who support "free love" Ra> are men who normally can't get it without paying for it. I appreciate your intellectual honesty and integrity where this matter is concerned. I was quite surprised to receive *any* comment in support of my view! The Diggers? I'm not familiar. I recently read a book from my local library entitled, "The 60's Reader" and from that book I culled the commentary about "Free Love" that I included in my original message. It comes from the first paragraph, if memory serves, of a chapter devoted to the topic. Apparently, the book's source was a pamphlet that was passed around the Haight-Asbury area back in '67. It was intended to warn others of what was really happening there. I'm not certain who was responsible for it. I think I'll go back and get that book again. I meant to copy that portion before I returned it but failed to. Imagine Virginity. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Mr. PSYOP MindWar Guy Area: Base of Set To: Rakshasa 12 Aug 93 20:24:00 Subject: Re: Free Love UpdReq Ra> I think free love is a great idea, provided that everyone concerned Ra> is really ready for an open relationship. But "free love" is only a fantastic ideal. It does not exist. Perhaps it is a great idea, but it *cannot* be practiced. Ra> I've been in a few open Ra> relationships and one triad relationship and in general things Ra> worked out fine. However, it's amazing how many people don't mind Ra> if you sleep with someone else until you actually DO sleep with Ra> someone else. I've not experienced any of the situations you claim to have experienced. But I can certainly confirm the truth of your final sentence. Ra> MP> Support Your Local Virgins. Ra> Dude... I'm in southern California. There ARE no local virgins. OK! Support Your Local Walkers in L.A.!! :-) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Rakshasa Area: Base of Set To: Mr. PSYOP MindWar Guy 13 Aug 93 00:01:00 Subject: Re: Free Love UpdReq MP> Ra> been a member of the Diggers. I'm in agreement with you there, MP> Ra> though... I've noticed that many of those who support "free MP> love" MP> Ra> are men who normally can't get it without paying for it. MP> MP> I appreciate your intellectual honesty and integrity where this MP> matter is MP> concerned. I was quite surprised to receive *any* comment in support MP> of MP> my view! The Diggers? I'm not familiar. I recently read a book The Diggers were a truly anarchic, obnoxious, anti-everything bunch of hippies who took the principles of performance art and used them in a Dadaistic sort of protest against virtually everything. I rather like them. I think you may be overstating the case a bit there. There _were_ people who tried to move beyond the monogamous patriarchal mode and experiment with open relationships and group "love-ins." Not all the women doing this were coerced or raped after being drugged... some of them were idealists who thought they were doing their part to end the "stagnant" and "repressive" family model which existed at that time. Indeed, their efforts met with at least some success. It was almost unheard of before the late 60s for a couple to live together without the benefit of marriage. Now it's quite a common occurrence. Gays and lesbians are also facing a much more open society now than in the days of yore (thanks to the bravery of a few during the Stonewall Riots of 1969). One must be careful to avoid generalizations... they're easily deflated. However, I do agree with you that many people used this "freedom" as another form of control. I'd recommend reading _The Family_ by Ed Sanders and _The Manson File_ by Nicholas Shreck for an example of how Charlie did it. And of course many of the people who support open orgies are male and sexually frustrated... as a quick peek at any adult BBS will tell you. (I'm giving you this information from hearsay, of course... I never logged onto an adult BBS seeking sex...) Xeper Kevin 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Rakshasa Area: Base of Set To: Mr. PSYOP MindWar Guy 13 Aug 93 00:06:00 Subject: Re: Free Love UpdReq MP> But "free love" is only a fantastic ideal. It does not exist. MP> Perhaps it is a great idea, but it *cannot* be practiced. Again you're using generalizations. I think an open polygamous household (i.e. a group of people all living together and sleeping together whenever the mood strikes them) is certainly possible. I also think we can't be too quick to denigrate the recreational value of sex. A good emotionless roll in the hay (complete with condom, of course) can be the perfect ending to a perfect night. I never had problems with my partners sleeping with other people, nor they with me sleeping around. Jealousy is a problem for some people, but not for all people. MP> I've not experienced any of the situations you claim to have MP> experienced. MP> But I can certainly confirm the truth of your final sentence. I have... they're no different than monogamous two-partner relationships. In the end they succeed or fail based on the emotional stability of all involved. Since none of us were particularly stable at that point, they didn't work as well as could be expected, alas. BTW... love your signoff. Xeper Kevin 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Zbigniew Nitecki Area: Base of Set To: Upir 12 Aug 93 17:06:30 Subject: ToS UpdReq Having gone through 2 years of Catholic school I watched people tithe $10 every Sunday for 52 weeks. Thats $520 tithed for what? An hour of spiritual grazing (Baaaaa! Says the Sheeple) The Temple will send you hours of reading material. You can stay on this BBS every day for at least an hour and chat to Setian's all over the world. You get Newsletters all through the year. (Do I sound like a sales man or what?) If $50 is the only thing that is holding you back suck it up and stay home for a weekend to cover the cost. Its worth it. You get you money back if you don't feel comfortable with the ToS. Good Luck! Xeper Zbig 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Upir Area: Base of Set To: Zbigniew Nitecki 13 Aug 93 00:00:20 Subject: ToS UpdReq OK! I still am not sure about what to put in the application. Advise, advise. All I am asking for is the basic criteria, I don't want to copy anyone elses or anything like that. Just an outline, if you will. And with a few days to write it all up, I think I have a stamp waiting. Either contact here or by voice would be very much appreciated. CYA, Upir P.S. Get a haircut. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: V. H. Area: Base of Set To: Paul Hume 12 Aug 93 10:36:48 Subject: Dual Membership -- O.T.O. and ToS UpdReq Of course, the Order is not really in the business of enforcing its vows in any case, leaving them as a matter of personal conscience. But I am interested in the unanswerable question of King's accuracy. It seems he worked from authentic manuscripts, so if the current vow does not forbid initiating anyone into any association, it seems likely that it was changed. If so, this would seem to be a change for the better. Thanks for the correction! Xeper, V.H. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Kayla Block Area: Base of Set To: V. H. 12 Aug 93 01:32:12 Subject: Dual Membership -- O.T.O. and ToS UpdReq 93 v.h., VH> One possible problem that comes to mind is the III VH> degree oath in the O.T.O., which forbids the initiate VH> to "initiate or purport to initiate any person into any VH> association of any kind" without charter from the Grand WOW!!! are you sure about this. i can't see how this could be true. for example, if one was a member of OTO and A.A., then you couldn't initiate anyone into A.A. i have known people who were 3rd degree or higher in the OTO (caliphate), who were most definitley initiating into other magical orders. i think the nature of the oath is designed to ensure that one isn't initiating or purporting to initiate INTO THE OTO without charter. i'm going to check in to this, because if you're right, i'm going to be pretty irate about this. did you get the copy of the oath you have from the King book? any details/info. you have, please pass on. thanks for the info. 93, ---kayla 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Kayla Block Area: Base of Set To: Haeglwulf 12 Aug 93 01:41:02 Subject: Re: A response to a response to a response, usv.UpdReq 93 haeglwulf, i have known many people in the OTO who were involved in other magical orders besides just the OTO. i don't think that it generally presents a conflict, (at least not to the OTO). i know that one person brought up a concern about a conflict which could occur subsequent to the 3rd degree. since i have known 3rd degree (and higher) people in the OTO who were initiating people in other magical orders (quite a few different order, in fact), i can't see how this could be true. but, i am planning on looking into it. i can't remember what the potential conflict is that was brought up regarding people in the lover's triad, (though i believe it had something to do with H.B., but i'm not sure). but, i have also known OTO members from the lover's triad who were also participating in other groups, as well as initiating in other groups. so, i guess i should find out what potential conflict was brought up regarding the lover's triad, and then i will be checking into that as well. have fun at your initiation! 93, ---kayla 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Albert Saperstein Area: Base of Set To: Mr. PSYOP MindWar Guy 13 Aug 93 21:33:32 Subject: Re: Free Love Sent UpdReq I also like what Mr. Perot said to former Assistant Secretary Of State Richard Armitage when he ran into him in the Pentagon mall one day: "YOU FILTHY F**KING DOPE PEDDLER, YOU SHOULD BE HUNG FOR WHAT YOU'VE DONE!!!" Apparently the Bo Gritz expedition funded by Perot uncovered some nasty dealings between Armitage and Ted Shackley and that Burmese fellow whose name escapes me just now (Khu Sanh?) who runs the smack trade over there. My Perot story gets better when you realize that Perot is about the size of Charles Manson and Armitage is about the size of Rosey Grier, and H. Ross leaped up on this zombie and grabbed him by the lapels whilst bray- ing the aforementioned accusation. 'Nam had nothing to do with economic theories. Are you at all familiar with the name Reinhard Gehlen? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Albert Saperstein Area: Base of Set To: Mr. PSYOP MindWar Guy 13 Aug 93 21:48:54 Subject: Re: Free Love Sent UpdReq You have an interesting way of sloughing off direct questions. Perhaps you should do a little more research before pontificating on the nature of the Vietnam "police action". By the way, what IS your line on II.76? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Albert Saperstein Area: Base of Set To: Mr. PSYOP MindWar Guy 13 Aug 93 21:53:38 Subject: Re: Free Love Sent UpdReq I think you should find out who the Diggers were before you begin braying about the '60s. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Albert Saperstein Area: Base of Set To: Zbigniew Nitecki 13 Aug 93 21:59:18 Subject: ToS Sent UpdReq A money back guarantee? Does that mean that if the good Doctor's solution to II.76 doesn't tell me whether it was Professor Plum in the Library with the Lead Pipe or Mrs. Green in the Kitchen with the Rope I can cash out? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Albert Saperstein Area: Base of Set To: Upir 13 Aug 93 22:02:36 Subject: ToS Sent UpdReq Get a life... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Albert Saperstein Area: Base of Set To: V. H. 13 Aug 93 22:03:50 Subject: Dual Membership -- O.T.O. and ToS Sent UpdReq The King book derives from slightly debased copies of slightly debased copies which he obtained from Jimmy Page. The book is inaccurate. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Albert Saperstein Area: Base of Set To: Kayla Block 13 Aug 93 22:07:18 Subject: Re: A response to a response to a response, usv.Sent UpdReq Forget the King book, read the Constitution of the Order. All of your questions are answered there... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Christeos Pir Area: Base of Set To: Mr. PSYOP MindWar Guy 13 Aug 93 03:19:14 Subject: Re: Free Love UpdReq -=> Mr. PSYOP MindWar Guy sent a message to Rakshasa on 12 Aug 93 20:17:00 <=- -=> Re: Re: Free Love <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. MPMG> I recently read a MPMG> book from my local library entitled, "The 60's Reader" and from that MPMG> book I culled the commentary about "Free Love" that I included in my MPMG> original message. This sounds like what you're saying is that you know nothing about the subject, but read something you liked (for whatever personal reasons) and reiterated it here as if it were your own analysis. Is this so, or am I misreading your message? MPMG> I've not experienced any of the situations you claim to have And this seems to confirm my suspicions... you weren't there, haven't lived it, and have no experience to back up your opinions. Just how old were you in the 60's? Love is the law, love under will. - Christeos Pir ... I will make me a little boat of my tongue, and explore the unknown 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Zbigniew Nitecki Area: Base of Set To: Rakshasa 13 Aug 93 12:04:04 Subject: Re: Thanks UpdReq Quite a large pair of boots to fill. Hope you get your stuff together. Talk to you in a while. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718