From: V. H. Area: Base of Set To: All 9 Aug 93 09:12:24 Subject: Dual Membership -- O.T.O. and ToS UpdReq One possible problem that comes to mind is the III degree oath in the O.T.O., which forbids the initiate to "initiate or purport to initiate any person into any association of any kind" without charter from the Grand Master. The wording of the oath makes it very clear that this is not limited to O.T.O. This might make it difficult to take an initiatory role in other traditions. Xeper! V.H. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Ali Katz Area: Base of Set To: Deep Black 8 Aug 93 21:32:00 Subject: Guns UpdReq Heilsa, DB. Long time no type. DB> Like abortion, drugs, religion and a lot of other stuff, personal DB> defense (particularly with firearms) is a touchy subject. Yeah, it is. I'm still pleasantly and rather gratefully surprised that I haven't been nailed for off-topic posts yet . DB> It is also one which I have given some thought. At times, it is DB> wise to be armed. Thankfully those times are few and far between DB> for most people. However, deadly force is rare to have need of even DB> in those generally infrequent situations requireing self defense. DB> Capsicum/oleo spray is an incredibly effective way to do this DB> without endangering life. You'll get no argument from me on any of the above. For the record, my first line of defense is a combination of alertness and a strong desire to avoid trouble; I subscribe wholeheartedly to the school of thought which maintains that the only certain way to win a confrontation is not to be there when it happens. In the funny-you-should-mention-that department, my second (active) line of defense is based on a small canister of o/c spray, combined with (or backed up by) the few techniques from my LIMITED formal martial arts background which I remember well enough to have reasonable confidence in. Finally, I AM licensed to carry a concealed firearm, and have the skill and the resolve to use it for its intended purpose, AS A LAST RESORT AND WHEN ALL LESSER MEASURES HAVE FAILED OR CANNOT REASONABLY BE EMPLOYED. This isn't braggadocio or rampant testosterone; it's a straightforward statement of fact. Now, please understand that I have *NO* illusions about being an especially accomplished fighter. I have neither the innate ability nor the inclination to become the Baddest Thing on Two Legs. I am, however, more trouble than I'm worth to any potential urban predator, and this strikes me a a desireable state of affairs, considering the alternative. DB> With knives being the next step up, I feel the best first cut is DB> across the forehead. This makes it almost impossible for the DB> attacker to see while one beats a hasty retreat. It also is the DB> least harmful. Of course, this movement is carried out as a complete DB> blindside while (hopefully) distracting the agressor in some manner. Again, agreed. While I have never been in a knife fight - and have no desire ever to be in one, thank you very much - a lady friend of mine used the slash across the forehead to, ah, persuade an assailant to cease and desist. She feels that the element of surprise had at least as much to do with his change of heart as did the injury itself. However, I know her well enough to confidently speculate that, had he continued to be unreasonable (as unlikely as that eventuality would be, given that he was effectively blinded by his own blood) her next move would have been considerably more drastic. Under certain very specialized circumstances, I have had occasion to carry serious knives: specifically, a standard Ka-Bar and a Cold Steel(tm) Tanto. I'm personally very glad that the requirements of the situation never went beyond having them available. For one thing, it was in violation of several applicable regulations. On the other hand, possible death and probable court-martial are still eminently preferable to certain death. DB> Obviously there are endless controversies on this subject, but most DB> of the time (if they are anything other than braggido and DB> testosterone induced saber rattling) they are conducted by and DB> useful only for professional warriors. Yep, and for that reason (among others) I don't waste much breath trying to sway anyone else's opinion as to the optimum weapon(s) for his/her purpose. In a civilian situation, the most effective armament, within reason, is that with which the particular individual is most competent. Oh - and one more minor detail. They have to have it with 'em. DB> BTW, I know you guys were just kidding around with your LAW's DB> comments, etc. That's good! :) Now, if there are any BATF weenies lurking on the echo, I just hope THEY realize that! Wassail, Ali Katz This copy of Freddie 1.2.5 is being evaluated. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718