From: Soror Timshel Area: RPSTOVAL To: Gerald Del Campo 12 Jun 92 16:01:30 Subject: DON QUIXOTE UpdReq 93, dude. Amazing - just checked out this part of the BBS for the 1st time, only to find you fighting the endless hoards of Thelemic bitchers and whiners. It's amazing - there are still people out there who expect the perfect magickal order in their perfect white robes, and will complain ENDLESSLY about any deviation from that expectation. People, get with it--any group of two or more people will provide enough political battles and bad policy decisions to keep you in BBS debates for the next century. The OTO was never designed to be a democracy (see Crowley on the subject of Democracy, and see our current political system for proof he was right). In addition, from everything I've seen (which is considerable) the EC and HB are committed, dedicated Thelemites, doing their best to keep the Order going. There's no evil plot to foil your right to be free. I really wish you guys could spend some time (SERVE some time) in some other Magickal Orders I could name - you'd never complain of a lack of freedom again. Keep at it Gerald - if you can stomach it. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Gerald Del Campo Area: RPSTOVAL To: Edward Wolfe 13 Jun 92 15:30:04 Subject: Re: continuation: Thelema and Politics UpdReq In a message dated 10 Jun 92 22:23:57, Edward Wolfe wrote: EW> The Electoral College, as the sum of it's parts, is simply damned. EW> To say it is run by a bunch of idiots, would perhaps be an undeserved EW> compliment. If there is one thing our Order does not have, it is a EW> just political body that is genuinely concerned with the precepts of EW> Thelema. GDC> Hmmm. On what experience do you base this grim view of the EC? Do GDC> you know who they are? EW> It is irrelevant who they are, or if I know them. I judge the Electoral EW> College not as individual members or peers, but as the sum total of their EW> collective minds (the ability to carry out the task set to them in an EW> acceptable manner to myself) which is manifested in the form of their EW> judgements. One must only judge anything according to the experience obtained by the awareness of the object or subject. Otherwise, those who listen to your criticism will ask you on what do you base your opinion. You are right, it DOESN'T matter who they are. EW> Ask yourself this: EW> What have they done to further the Law of Thelema? Without them, the Order would run a hell of a lot rougher than it does presently. It is their job to make decisions which will further the aims of the Order and its members. EW> What have they done to constrict it? To my knowledge? nothing. That's why I asked you ;) EW> These days it is best to learn Thelema not from our "illustrious" EW> Caliph or the Electoral College, but from the honest folk (and truth EW> seekers) that are drawn to the Order by the ideals they believe it to EW> uphold. GDC> You say "These days", but I think it has alway been thus. I still GDC> enquire about your knowledge of our "illustrious leader" and of the GDC> Electoral College. Opinions such as yours can only be taken serious GDC> if one has either experience or knowledge of what he or she GDC> says...care to enlighten me? EW> ****UNTHELEMIC**** ****UNTHELEMIC**** ****UNTHELEMIC**** How so? EW> An opinion such as mine, is just that-- An opinion. EW> I needn't justify any of my reasons. No one is asking you to justify anything. I just enquired because my experience has always been of a positive nature. Therefore... EW> ***However! EW> Since _you_ have willfully taken it upon yourself to prove me EW> wrong-- Nope. I am doing no such thing. I'm just curious. EW> It is actually now _your_ perogative to justify _your_ reasons why EW> you feel _my_ judgements of the EC are in error. This sounds like a cop-out. ***However! ISince I have had the opposite experience regarding the EC, I asked in order to compare thoughts, to see if perhaps I am mistaken in my opinion. EW> In truth, however, it's not the higher ups that have the freedom. EW> It's the lower ranks of the Man of Earth triad. They are not yet EW> "dynamic", and can blend in amongst the ranks, being partially ignored EW> as "just another minerval" (or first, etc). GDC> If you are mistreated or ignored as just another Minerval or First, GDC> perhaps you should check out other OTO bodies, as this seems to me, to GDC> be a local problem. I have not witnessed that kind of behavior where GDC> I was "brought up": it simply is not tolerated. EW> You're probably right. Come hang out with us ;) EW> And being relatively unimportant, they can pretty much be themselves, EW> having no Ego to appease... GDC> This is quite an assumption, considering that 9 out of 10, it is the GDC> Ego that brings candidates to the Order, of course; the drive for GDC> Truth is a big player in the whole process as well. Anyway, my GDC> experience is the reverse of what you say; perhaps travelling a bit to GDC> see how other bodies handle themselves would be a rewarding GDC> experience. EW> Interesting. Indeed, both our perceptions are different/reversed! You know whatthey say: In order for something to be True, its opposite must also apply to the statement. :) EW> I've only been to a handful of different bodies. I hope to visit EW> more in the near future. EW> It's sad to point out, that even in the Order, _OUR ORDER_, the will EW> of the mass has begun to stifle the will of the individual. However, EW> hope is not lost... Time brings change. Or should, at any rate. GDC> Could you explain this? The Order has a responsibility to ALL of its GDC> members. Should the Order allow one or two individuals to destroy the GDC> harmony of the rest of the membership? Do you consider this GDC> UnThelemic? EW> "The Order" is but a lifeless shell. You are right. It is the spirit of the membership which give it life. EW> It has no responsibility to anyone. Except to itself and the membership. EW> It all comes down to the individual actions of individual members. Exactly. EW> Down with the Order! EW> Down with the Electoral College! EW> Down with Protesting(!?) EW> I can't believe you took me seriously, Gerald. ;-) Have you aver seen the Iron Maiden albums? I take ANYBODY named Eddie seriously ;) Love is the Law. Gerald ... RPSTOVAL Oasis: Badges? We don't need no stinking badges! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Gerald Del Campo Area: RPSTOVAL To: Soror Timshel 13 Jun 92 16:11:04 Subject: Re: DON QUIXOTE UpdReq In a message dated 12 Jun 92 16:01:30, Soror Timshel wrote: ST> The OTO was never designed to be a democracy (see Crowley on the subject ST> of Democracy, If A.C. had only said WHAT it was supposed to be this debate wouldn't exist. Perhaps he did it to us on purpose? >:-) ST> and see our current political system for proof he was right). Amen! ST> In addition, from everything I've seen (which is considerable) the EC ST> and HB are committed, dedicated Thelemites, doing their best to keep ST> the Order going. There's no evil plot to foil your right to be free. Not in the O.T.O., anyway. ST> I really wish you guys could spend some time (SERVE some time) in some ST> other Magickal Orders I could name - you'd never complain of a lack of ST> freedom again. :-D ST> Keep it up Gerald... Is this an invitation? hhhuuuuuuuhhhhh???? ;) Thank you for the support Sister. I was starting to wonder if anyone was reading these messages now-a-days besides Darrin, Edward, Tim, and myself. Of course I'll keep it up. I'm not defendingthe O.T.O., I'm simply stating that my experiences with it have been very straight forward and down right honorable. If I question some one who is not happy with it, something inside wants to know what...that's all. Love is the Law. Gerald P.S. Does this mean you will be visiting this part of the computer chip once in a while? welcome! ... RPSTOVAL Oasis: Badges? We don't need no stinking badges! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718