From: Coronis Area: THE_OASIS To: Diane Vera 28 Mar 92 23:48:32 Subject: Communication and Code Words (1 of 2) Rec'd UpdReq This is in response to your post to me of March 23, "First, the personal stuff (2 of 2)". From your message: DV>> No, it probably isn't true that "any number of" ToS members >> could comment on Trapezoi.TXT at least as well as you. >> Probably, only a member of the Order of the Trapezoid >> could; and there don't seem to be any O.Tr. members who >> participate regularly in computer networks... I also dislike unresolved misunderstandings, so let's clear up a few things. First of all, let's not forget that your questions involve ToS, not Coronis. Not being a ToS member I can't speak *from experience* about any of the matters we have attempted to discuss -- I can only address the *evidence* (or lack of same) used to support Tim's conclusions. Also, you seem to forget that an initiate of the O.Tr. *has* made some comments on Trapezoi.TXT. Did you ever read Oz Tech's response? If not, you'll have to ask someone else to upload it for you. I only have it in hardcopy. Since you have repeatedly mentioned that I avoid discussing "matters of substance" with you, I decided to review all the conversations relating to Trapezoi.TXT over the past three months before responding this time. I will admit the possibility that you actually don't understand what relevant information has been posted to you, especially the excerpts from the "Wewelsburg Working". So, I will try to explain what *seems to me* to be worth considering about the Wewelsburg Working in light of neo-Pagan prejudices and concerns. Please bear in mind that I am not attempting to give an official interpretation of ToS material (which I am unable to do, of course), but an outsider's *opinion*. On February 21, Balanone posted a message to you concerning the "Wewelsburg Working" which included some quotations from the actual document in question with the purpose of "giv[ing] you an idea of the Working and the problems it concerned itself with." Did you understand from the quoted paragraphs that the W.W. did not in fact concern "Nazism" or fascism, but other phenomena which manifested among the members of ToS, as they do sooner or later in any social setting? The "wrong thing" which Anton LaVey had attacked as a focus of his anger and contempt, and which ToS had attempted to improve, was not an involvement with fascism. This is the most significant paragraph: WW>> ...Strengthen, exalt, and encourage the Willful Self and >> you cannot avoid strengthening the natural instincts as >> well. No human being is free from these; they may be kept >> in check for years, but in eventual moments of stress, >> weakness, or stimulus they will break free. They may be >> either creative or destructive; this is not a mere "Jekyll/ >> Hyde" scenario. This "wrong thing" is not, in itself, "wrong" in the sense of "evil". You speak of it often yourself when you address the issues of "minority rights activists" and "politically aware" individuals. On the opposite side of the spectrum, it is also the driving force behind "fundamentalist" movements. When Dr. Aquino replied to Tim's questions with various examples from history, and not just National Socialist Germany, he did more than deny his "sympathies". He expressed his concern with what made those atrocities *possible*. To me, this is the most ethical response. [continued next message] 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Coronis Area: THE_OASIS To: Diane Vera 28 Mar 92 23:51:34 Subject: Communication and Code Words (2 of 2) Rec'd UpdReq [continued from previous message] But, why a Working at Wewelsburg? Obviously, because we are all so familiar with the evil image of Nazism as a destructive political movement, a site used by the National Socialists has its advantages. Because of the meaning of Wewelsburg to the SS, it is an ideal symbol of "the strengthened natural instincts" used to a destructive purpose, regardless of whatever more "noble" sentiments set them free. (If you don't understand what I mean about Wewelsburg, please ask a ToS member. I'm not the ideal person to explain it to you.) In her response to Trapezoi.TXT, Oz Tech gives a typical ToS explanation for "the re-formulation of the Order of the Trapezoid at Wewelsburg Castle". From Oz Tech's response: Oz>> Here again the intent is magically precise. >> Any occultist or neo-Pagan familiar with the pre-Christian >> history of Europe knows that the continent is crossed by >> "ley lines" of telluric current. Pennick's book, HITLER'S >> SECRET SCIENCES, describes how the geomancer Himmler sought >> out key points on ley lines for his SS buildings: "Deeply >> conscious of the magical aspect of earth mysteries, by a >> seemingly innocent interest in the preservation of ancient >> monuments he managed to gain personal control of those >> places he considered magically powerful."... >> The Wewelsburg is one such site. In the eyes of a >> materialist, the use of a "power spot" formerly held by >> Nazis is support of Nazism. In the eyes of a trained >> occultist it is no such thing. The elemental forces in >> such a place are not "Nazi" any more than the water >> arising from a spring is "Native American" or "French" >> or "Republican"... A typical ToS explanation is one that uses a combination of occult terminology and emotionally loaded imagery to misdirect attention from the relevant information in the response. ToS members don't actually reply with falsehoods; I've always found them to be honest, but you must always "consider the source" in interpreting what they say. Here is a very simplified interpretation of Oz Tech's explanation above; it is only the opinion of Coronis, and not that of a member of ToS or the O.Tr. The uses of the terms "ley lines", "telluric current" and "elemental forces" refer to manifestations of *human* powers acquired and developed at an earlier stage of our evolution. "Power spots" are locations significant for being sites of *human* activity -- humans give them meaning, even if natural beauty and/or physical convenience were the attractions for the original inhabitants. A "trained occultist" is someone able to understand and use the optimum combination of rational intelligence and natural instinct to work her/his will. In this light, Wewelsburg is a warning about the dangers of the misunderstood or unexplored natural instincts, and the Working is reminder of that warning -- not an encouragement of Nazi activities. The "social discretion" Tim made so much of in his article is not an attempt to conceal political activity on the part of ToS. These natural human powers are volatile, and must be handled with care. Even though they make it possible for us to experience beauty, the arts, mystery, and love, they can be focused upon death and destruction as easily as upon life and creativity. I suggest you reread the responses you have received from ToS members in this light, and ask *them* any further questions you may have. And, if you still want to discuss my posts from March 14, I would like to see what you have to say. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Eric Area: THE_OASIS To: Serpens 29 Mar 92 01:11:42 Subject: Re: TO DREAMERS AND FOOLS . UpdReq Hello Serpens : Let me start off by saying that this to me is not a personal issue . It seems more social and political . I wouldn't pass off any mans version of rality in a religious ferver as false or un-true . Who can say this ? A man could meditate on the black side of Kali or across an ocean another may watch some 'slasher flick' ... the effects would seem similar . No means are the final means . In fact, I believe that Rap music generates a similar state as African ritual drumming . And who knows, when your parents first heard 'Shake Rattle and roll " It may have been as heavy and rebelious as Metalica for them . Man will not write his final destiny ( aside from genoside ) The fact will change , things will take hold of themselves . Yes, I do have a personal dislike for Christianity . I have no room for it. It's written history it truly claims to finalise and reveal everything . I didn't expect my message to get such a responce but I knew it wouldn't be well accepted . I don't wish to knock down any ersonal belief system . I see this as political and social . Any religous system is political and social for it relates to people, sure . But I see this as something they ( and not the consipiracy they but they as the many people who have ) make public, something made to cause changes thusly and open to critisism . And I say, by the facts stated in my original note they they are Fools and Frauds . SO -= Eric =- 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frater Almost Area: THE_OASIS To: Eric 29 Mar 92 15:22:24 Subject: Re: TO DREAMERS AND FOOLS . Sent UpdReq You have given me no reason to consider fundies as fools or frauds. They are practicing their religion. If the stigmata is there to begin with (consciously self-inflicted or sub-consciously) then it really makes little difference. It is a ritual.... It is a means to an end. The path is not important just the result.... I know how that sounds (Trust me, I'm not lusting after result!) but the result, on such a scale as this form of grey or black magick, is important. Further, what should you, as a self-proclaimed Thelemite, care what the Fundies do as long as they don't do it to you? Have you not read AL II:58? Pax. 93 ----Frater Almost who is Frater Nova, II' 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Diane Vera Area: THE_OASIS To: Coronis 29 Mar 92 23:22:28 Subject: Communication and Code Words (1 of 2) On March 28, you wrote me a 2-part message titled "Communication and Code Words" in response to my March 23 message to you, "First, the personal stuff (2 of 2)": . DV > No, it probably isn't true that "any number of" ToS members could comment on Trapezoi.TXT at least as well as you. Probably, only a member of the Order of the Trapezoid could; and there don't seem to be any O.Tr. members who participate regularly in computer networks. . C > you seem to forget that an initiate of the O.Tr. *has* made some comments on Trapezoi.TXT. Did you ever read Oz Tech's response? .No, I didn't forget it; and yes, I did read it. However, Oz Tech does not participate regularly in BASE OF SET. If you will recall, my statement was in response to *your* March 21 statement that "any number of ToS members could comment upon TRAPEZOI.TXT at least as well as I, and do not wish to do so". . C > Since you have repeatedly mentioned that I avoid discussing "matters of substance" with you, I decided to review all the conversations relating to Trapezoi.TXT over the past three months before responding this time. I will admit the possibility that you actually don't understand what relevant information has been posted to you, especially the excerpts from the "Wewelsburg Working". [...] On February 21, Balanone posted a message to you concerning the "Wewelsburg Working" which included some quotations from the actual document in question with the purpose of "giv[ing] you an idea of the Working and the problems it concerned itself with." Did you understand from the quoted paragraphs that the W.W. did not in fact concern "Nazism" or fascism, but other phenomena which manifested among the members of ToS, as they do sooner or later in any social setting? .Yes, I understood that, especially after Balanone's further elaboration. My complaints about *your* messages have nothing to do with "what relevant information has been posted to" me by Balanone and other ToS members. . C > I also dislike unresolved misunderstandings, so let's clear up a few things. First of all, let's not forget that your questions involve ToS, not Coronis. .No, my questions *to you* have generally concerned statements *of yours* which you were unwilling to substantiate. Remember that our conversation started with *your* statement of *your* opinion of Tim's "credibility". .In our last couple of exchanges, you finally did *sort of* attempt to substantiate some of your remarks. I disagree with a lot of your semi-explanations, but it doesn't seem worthwhile to me to discuss why. Since you and I keep having misunderstandings about our misunderstandings about our misunderstandings, I see no point in continuing this conversation. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718