From: Jonathan Corwin Area: Night Side To: Amazon Lil 16 Aug 92 01:32:28 Subject: AZO Sent UpdReq NYC -- apologize, I recalled after the message that it was not so uncommon; I'd be surprised though if it were a fully developed third mammary gland... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Jonathan Corwin Area: Night Side To: Nrrys 16 Aug 92 01:37:46 Subject: Fear Sent UpdReq I understand both her objection and your understanding. The validity depends on what is being attempted; redirecting fear and pain into pleasure is a valid way to expand your horizons, but it is at odds with social bond since it leads to greater freedom hence less predictable behavior. David Lynch notwithstanding, there is a point at which "strange" behavior creates its own psychology and makes the bad-boy-(girl)-who-really-wants to come-home an improbable occurrence. Check out my latest installment on Nox Theoria; it contains an interesting observation on emotional feedback (and various social constructs if you understand the essence of what I'm talking about in it). 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Jonathan Corwin Area: Night Side To: Amazon Lil 16 Aug 92 01:54:34 Subject: Dark, dark and dusty.... Sent UpdReq AL> If there is an offe4nce to be made, I am sure we will do our best... Ha! Just try! Wishing you luck... invite me to the brawl, OK, hon? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Jonathan Corwin Area: Night Side To: Amazon Lil 16 Aug 92 01:57:04 Subject: A question for discussio Sent UpdReq Yeah, I understand, butt I meant "atheist" magick, actually. My experience has been that we are so steeped in xtian and animythic lore that it becomes difficult to take magick on its own terms (ie, science to witchcraft's religion, or CMs for that matter). There was a discussion on another echo about how it theoretically ought to be possible to use forces in pure terms, but the rituals (for others) seemed to still work best when using a mythicon (god-construct which holds specific energies -- Ishtar, Tammuz, Ariadne, Thoth, etc.). Think we can get past that? I think some of my experiments are beginning to show me a way... But then again, it might just be hubris, um, Hubert, patron saint of The Fool, I mean... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Jonathan Corwin Area: Night Side To: Amazon Lil 16 Aug 92 02:03:28 Subject: Nox Theoria, In Defense of the Black ArtsSent UpdReq Touche, you have found my weak point. But you'd need a good deal more background to understand how and what I'm working. I'll capsule it for you: Always thought it was more important to have your head straight first, then do the body thing. 10 yrs. -- xtianity and Eastern sects (origin, history, theology, philosophy from Lao-Tze to Confucius to Gnostics to CS Lewis to Pierre Teilhard De Chardin (my man!); most of which I've now mercifully forgotten) served concurrently with a 4 yr. sentence in occult strains -- alchemy to Wicca to dabble in CM, Crowley and finally off to fnord with the antinovelists... plus two yrs. studying meditative techniques, symbols, language. All my life vivid dreaming (get my best stories from them -- Im a writer ). Phase through from neohippie to cyberpunk (now psychotechnedelic). After going through the heavy duty xtian shit and Eastern shit, I spent extensive time rooting out those elements from my belief-structure which allowed me to recently work out a shift inclusive of black/white magick. All rituals largely solo, led some group meditations. All of this fairly erratic. I've got my mental status where I want it, my spiritual status is coming around and this, for me, is The Year of The Body (Float in a Dream of Ex-TC, FIRE ON HIGH and higher and higher heh ). I'm just starting to get my physical discipline really together -- exercise, vocal training (soon), I'll also be getting into more extensive physical magick (root in the body, forget the morality). Etc., etc., etc. Got it? Good. 'Cuz I'm only gonna say it once. I think you hear me knockin', an' ya know what? I hate that guy on MTV... Hail Eris! Glad ta make it out of Greyface Gulch... ;D Addendum: Nox Theoria is targeted to a specific audience/genre (AOSpare, gothic). And you'll notice that in this sub-section (NT, IDOTBA) it _is_ *theory* of the Night, heh. Got other things up my sleeve as well. To pierce the veil of living flesh, she walked on through that mirror, and... highs were skies of liquid sapphire. Welcome to my fantasy! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Jonathan Corwin Area: Night Side To: * 16 Aug 92 02:39:20 Subject: Nox Theoria, In Defense of the Black ArtsSent UpdReq The Projected Other While the religious and the moralists and philosophers of all stripes dirty their dainty hands in the delicate manner of a debutante introducing herself to society, saying that man is thus-and-such (consequently suffering the crushing burden of "proving" their allegations), the magus understands that humans more often and truly define themselves by what they are not than what they are. And in order to understand what is not, (s)he goes picking through the lint of society's underbelly, the Projected Other. For this heresy, (s)he is condemned by society -- or, rather, its leaders, to whom the sheeple have defaulted their power. And so the brave new world ventured into (of things considered "mysterious" and "dark", hence "wrong" and "evil") elicits reactions ranging from that mildly uncomfortable itch so often scratched by cinematic horror to full-blown hysteria, but most common: the red-flag motion of a bull about to stampede in outrage (sublimated fear). Prejudice is a condition of this exploration,and ought to be borne in mind by the would-be practitioner. The effect is less intense, but there nonetheless, for the self-proclaimed "white" magi. The magus, by signaling her willingness to explore this domain,becomes appointed its functionary. (S)he becomes the concrete nexus for the nebulous fears, hostilities and lusts normally trashed in a christian wastebin marked "evil", and for which "Satan" (an imaginary construct) is normally the target; some people have very good imaginations. But her status as target implies power, which she may exploit at her discretion. The Projected other is defined by its opponents as somehow "opposite", but is it? The answer -- a disappointing no. In fact,the Projected Other is merely a shadowy reflection cast against the cave walls by a bond of fealty; you serve either Satan or God, yet serve either way. Where the right hand is projected, the left hand is found. But their nature is more similar than conflicting. Satanism and christianity parallel each other in too many broad senses to be other than sister and brother: In the popular conception, both compete for a (non?)existent soul; in the occult conception, both offer overarching redemptions, yet magi, both "black" and "white", practice similar ethics and glance askance at the deviants, rejected from both sides as not truly being of their kind. This tends to occur because most magi are, in fact, a rather dingy gray. The Projected Other and its adversary are dual aspects of a whole, and seeing this, the magus concludes that the "left-hand path" is but a fool's blind, miring the magi in the same mud-flat traps that the christians and holy gurus of the collective contemplation wallow in. Here lies a problem, then. Her workings require the magus to use the materials in the projected other -- the collective fears and desires. Yet to do just so risks entrapment. Therefore, through her mastery and personal will, she may engage the projected other to boost her into the true realm of black magick; the condition beyond dualism which requires an alien sensibility to be made sense of. By means of this gnosis, she may achieve understanding of the universe and the unremitting fear and enmity of her fellow man (which she probably already has; there is a subliminal fear of woman's connection to the universe in most men, leading them to place Kali upon the pedestal). With perseverance (s)he may come into her own. This, however, requires the full animation of her will and desire in bringing her emotions and body under as fully a conscious control as possible. In the experience of emotion, whether anger, joy, sadness or pain, there is an underlying subtext of attraction. This is readily seen in the phenomenon of virtual experience (as found in books and movies, the infernos of image and mood), replayed over and over to satisfy the addiction of unrealized fantasies. It is also partly the reason why the pattern of abusive relationships tends to be maintained; there is a certain power in the cosmology of the victim, and (s)he is understandably loathe to give it up for the vagaries of an unknown fate. This innate attraction to patterns of emotion is largely unconscious, yet it is precisely this goliath that the magus seeks to dredge out into the full clarity of intent awareness, lest it warp her with its counter-productive fevers. (S)he seizes on its power by exaggerating it. In the wake of their exaggeration -- caring joys, playful rages,delicious melancholy -- the pretentious, self-involved qualities collapse... leaving only an exuberance of different flavors. To the magus, all conditions of human existence then become material for revelry and revelation. With the secrets (s)he unlocks from the facets of our existence,her mode of conduct must be decided. Shall (s)he be open in her beliefs, acting, in essence, as an activist for them? Shall she withdraw to the covens of the converted? Or shall (s)he plunge herself into the appalling crudities of the mainstreams, or,perhaps, explore and disturb the infinite subcultures surrounding her? All these are possible, and carry their own advantage and obstacles. (S)he may find herself through several of these choices, as phases of a learning. But she should always keep in mind how her understanding of human nature and the projected other shall shift, and thus, how her workings are affected; staid law,stagnant stasis are the enemy of all life and lust. The forces (s)he plays with must be understood and shaped so they do not turn inward on themselves in a devouring rage that leads to death,whether spiritual, mental or physical. Unless such is her choice. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Jonathan Corwin Area: Night Side To: * 16 Aug 92 02:45:38 Subject: Nox Theoria, In Defense of the Black ArtsSent UpdReq The Silent Sovereign Narcissus' sister -- (S)he glides with grace, freely taking, freely giving. Her treasures, nor jewels nor gold, but ambivalent definition phasing through facets of the world. Others partake, yet (s)he creates; Ariadne's threads unravel and mesh again on her loom, in full pursuit of power. Her pallid disciples confuse themselves in the act, replacing the weaver, yet not the cloth itself. Her path is infinitely harder; all else unravels, a simple substitute coarsely braided. (S)he looks in, and the mirror reflects endlessly... Her pattern holds her in awe, a finer weave in elegant patterns compelling inspiration in love of herself, and finally in others. Her gaze strikes the world, reflecting back in the cast of her perceptions (a reality, her noble truth) (S)he is everything to herself; how does one gaze on an image, and know it is not true? Her art is conscious, her will supreme To render the world in the hues and shades of her chasm, does it not render the imperious trivial? The criminal destroys the innocent when (s)he cannot destroy the world (s)he hates within. Her intellect a delight; the body varnished, brazen, a canvas of discipline; her world is transparent and fluid, shifting as (s)he does to whatever draws near. The pleasures simple; (s)he is never what (s)he thinks (s)he is, and so (s)he is indefinable. Growth floods her expanses, pregnant like the unfolding petals of the new-born flower; fresh with morning dew. Her voice echoes with the laughter of children ringing through the air, shifting moods and tones as readily as the chameleon. (S)he is... a kaleidoscope of enchanting colors. (S)he is... naiad, nymph; merging and separating. (S)he is... siren, fascinating in keen glamour. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Jonathan Corwin Area: Night Side To: Amazon Lil 16 Aug 92 02:47:56 Subject: Magick Sent UpdReq Oh yeah, it also depends on how you define magick. I have only had the rare occasional experience of siddhis, but the more important aspects, to my mind have been aspects dealing with self-trance-formation, which has not always occurred within the traditional "magickal" context, yet nonetheless operate along those lines. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Barak Area: Night Side To: Markie Chao 14 Aug 92 15:14:54 Subject: Mezlim Rec'd UpdReq Looking forward to seeing what you have in store for us on the Thanatos front. Do you think you could have your submission in by the end of August? It would be a big help. We're trying to get the thang out on time, and there are three big festivals right at production time. Chaos reigns again...still? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Amazon Lil Area: Night Side To: Josh Norton 15 Aug 92 02:05:20 Subject: A question for discussio UpdReq I'm gonna have to do some re-reading of her stuff...I did not read the feminism into her work..seems more like a re-hash in different terms to me...but I might be a bit biased...:-) Lil 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: Night Side To: Azoth 14 Aug 92 16:19:12 Subject: Re: Enochian Lexicon UpdReq AZ>The mind boggles. It's like we've got the shop manual, all but the chapters >on the transmission and the brakes.... Amen to that! I know what I'd do with a time machine if I had one -- go back and offer Dee a couple of hundred ounces of gold to let me photocopy his library! >source and executable, for Enochian gematria and name extraction on >Baphonet, Cathouse and Mumbo Jumbo Kathedral. The gematria and Enochian >Tablets can both be loaded from disk, so experiments come easy. I'll dig them up, as soon as I have the spare cash to pay the phone bill. > JN| C library that you have to remember. Either one is a pain. AZ>Hehe. Right. A language like C++ can substantially cut the 'API glut', >with judicious use of operator overloading, polymorphism and defaulted. >parameters. Such 'judicious use' does, unfortunately, place a heavy burden >on the designer, who then needs to think beyond the immediate requirements, >and into the general characteristics of the proposed solution. If only there were more "judicious" software designers out there! You should see some of the crap I get stuck with, trying to maintain someone else's Smalltalk programs. Y'know, in some ways I really appreciate the old Metaphor computer systems -- their "objects" were complete spreadsheets, data query tools, word-processors, etc. hidden inside icons. You just had to connect the icons with arrows to specify program flow, adjust a few settings in the icon, and -- instant program! I hear Apple/IBM are thinking of something similar for their new "object-oriented" operating environment. One may hope it is as easy! >The >expressiveness of C++ or SMallTalk does hold a hope that those general >characteristics can at least be coded. Something's gotta give. The >complexity of the Windows or X API is absurd when I, the 'pre-user', just >want a bloody window, and a button or two. It's getting worse -- the new Windows network, OLE, and multi-media APIs just added a couple of thousand MORE calls. You're right, it can't go on much longer. Pretty soon we'll be back at the point we were at in 1960, when it took thirty people with advanced degrees just to keep the damned machines running. That may be OK for mainframes, but for PCs? AZ>Just finished putting a new motherboard in my development machine here, so >maybe I can get a little more work done: 486-33 w/16M, running DesqView-X. >Any of 5 simultaneous builds under DV/X using the MicroSoft compiler are >faster (like x2) than a single build under DOS on my old 386SX, while I'm >downloading a file at 9.6k and doing offline mail. Cripes! There go the >coffee breaks. (The thing's like 2/3 as fast as the HP/Apollo I use at >my day job....) *Sigh of envy* That's at the top of my wishlist -- maybe the next time I get a "permanent" job I'll be able to afford it! AZ>I'm unaware of any but the Enochian Calls, though I seem to recall reading >that _they_ were extracted from Logaeth, in some fashion that is not yet >clearly understood (maybe by 'pasting the sheets' some of those high >coordinate numbers can be accomodated...) I wish I could remember where I'd read that -- it's not in any of my immediate references. All I recall is that someone mentioned invocations in association with Logaeth, and remarked that they "had a much more echolalic quality" than the Angelic Calls. And I also recall that these invocations were supposed to be planetary in nature, instead of elemental. Hey, wait a minute! Maybe it was "The Book of Soyga". Ever heard anything about that? * SLMR 2.1a * I think we're all bozos on this bus. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: Night Side To: Frc 14 Aug 92 16:33:14 Subject: Re: Mag_text.zip UpdReq FR>The only Enochian program (hi-rez VGA....quite good) I have seen is the >one put out by Ordo Argentum Astrum (c). FR>Is yours similar? I've never seen theirs, so I don't know. Mine runs in character mode, so you can use it on any machine with a CGA or better card. You could probably run it on a black and white monitor too, though the shading might look a bit weird. What it is, is a program that allows you to type in a phrase in Hebrew, Greek, or Angelic, and it will calculate the gematria value of the phrase. Produces a single value for Greek, two values for Hebrew -- the second using the "final" values of the letters at the ends of words, and four for Angelic, using several different valuation methods. Once the word is valued, you can save it in a database, along with its meaning, values, source, and about five 70-character lines of comments. The program allows retrieval of words by their spelling, value, meaning, etc. and you can also create indexes based on multiple criteria for a single field. No multi-field searches, alas. Also allows printouts in several formats, but only on printers that accept TTY-style control codes. But you can also print to disk and print it out with your word-processor if you've got a non-compatible printer. It comes with a built-in database containing the entire contents of Sepher Sephiroth, plus about 1100 additional Hebrew words. Also contains a fairly comprehensive database of Enochian words, divine names, etc. Try Mumbo Jumbo Kathedral if you want a copy. * SLMR 2.1a * My reality check just bounced. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: Night Side To: Frc 14 Aug 92 16:38:16 Subject: Re: Dark, dark and dusty UpdReq FR>JN> (i.e. golf pros, successful entrepreneurs, etc.) attribute all their >JN> success to the intervention of Jesus Christ. Sounds like since the >JN> stick >JN> didn't work, they're trying the carrot. FR>I can't figure out why they leave it there. It's TOO slick to be any >good to anyone. All it does is smear and it has no absorbency at all! I think that the idea is, you're more likely to be thinking your life is shit if you're sitting on the toilet. They want to catch you at an opportune moment. I agree, their positive-mode stuff is printed on too slick paper. The hellfire pamphlets were printed on cheap newstock, about the same as the old Sears-Roebuck catalogs, so it worked pretty well. * SLMR 2.1a * Scratch a conservative and you will find a feudalist. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: Night Side To: Vitriol 14 Aug 92 16:45:20 Subject: Re: Mag_text.zip UpdReq VI>Actually, it looked interesting to me once I started punching in some >stuff -- like some of my names. Well, if it works for you, more power to you! * SLMR 2.1a * "All systems are true" = "no system is true" 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Jonathan Corwin Area: Night Side To: Brynioch 16 Aug 92 04:04:26 Subject: Re: Chaos and learning magick Sent UpdReq B> I get the impression that part of what CM's do is ... B> mental reworking, becoming ones own psychiatrist. B> Finding outlooks, perceptions, preconceptions that are B> useless and changing them to something more beneficial. It's a part of what they do, yes. I'm a Psych major (BS, how appropriate ;> !) and I spent a good deal of time trying to work out the "logic" of symbolic systems (CM is one, so are the Eastern yantras). Part of my conclusion -- I hope this helps you -- is that meditations offer a way to engage in internal dialogue on a more intimate level than inner voices do (which, in fact, can distract from this other form of dialogue). Engaging in this kind of dialogue allows, I think, the refinement of what I call the "internal mirror". Everybody has one, but some are scratched, warped and dusty. BTW, its psychologist, not psychiatrist (unless you get into the physical manipulations -- yoga and higher-level meditations which require a certain degree of biofeedback control that can cause physiological changes in the body that then affect the mind). B> B> Here's a tricky point that i've always been worried B> about. How does one know that its not only his B> perceptions that have been changed? What I mean is how B> does one know that the ...results/effects of magick B> aren't just in his mind, self-delusion with no objective B> manifestation. It's only a tricky point if you take the wrong approach to understanding it. The mind is not an isolate. It exists in the context of body and the surrounding environment. Thus the change of perception ripples through from attitude to action, thus to behavior, and engages a change in the surrounding environment. You have to view yourself as existing simultaneously on mental, physical and emotional planes that all interconnect. From this standpoint, even "self-delusion" has objective manifestations (and most of us are already quite deluded, thank you very much, I don't think you need to worry very much about that). Thus, the only reasonable approach to take is to investigate how these planes interact *for* you. This requires an experimental attitude and an ability to be honest about the results (letting go of justifications that interfere with what occurs in reality). One good thing I've noticed about the practice: as you become more versed in symbols and how they interact, you will be less susceptible to outside manipulation. At a certain level of proficiency, then, the traps will largely come from within. Ego, ideology, etc. Keep in mind that we all ultimately build our own prisons; but the more you expand your understanding of how life interacts, the more kinds of furnishings you have available. The prison become the palace? :) B> I've been told that magick is more subjective than B> objective... Is it all then just self-delusion? B> Tricking your mind into believing that your doing B> something when your not? The s/o paradigm is a kind of a fallacy, a useful model but ultimately a false duality. S-o feeds back into each other; if you can retain a pragmatic perspective, you needn't worry about self-delusion... most of us can tell when reality hits us in the face. Most of us are also dumb, stupid and blind. Some of us are just two of the above, hehe. The real question you face here is this: magick involves a form of faith and the tools to manipulate its shape. Many people get bogged down in asking, What is faith? A better question would be, what are the consequences of a particular shape (form) of faith? These are things that can be objectively answered. The consequences of fundamentalist christian science in a medical emergency is *usually* death, for example. The consequence of a lack of faith (drive) in cancer patients inhibits the chances of survival. How much? That can't be said, right now. Scientists are looking into it. Remember: the placebo effect is just the scientific phrase for faith healing (altho' there tend to be more abuses in the latter, for reasons outlined above). B> I honestly believe that there IS something to it B> all... But I am a bit of a sceptic I haven't had any of B> these nifty supernatural experiences I hear about. The Ah, the siddhis (indian term for supernatural powers that may manifest with the concentration of internal focus and a few other items). Rule #1: the more sensitive you get regarding the body and mind, the more likely these are to occur (altho' I talk only of very minor forms -- such as kriyas and what I call "body shifts", the former being the release of blocked energy channels in the form of involuntary bodily motions and the most common example of the latter being the impact of sound as vibration across the whole body rather than just through the ears). Rule #2: Its more important to be able to shift moods and actions at will than to esper. The essence of magick is to bring all of the individual's assets under their control; this is part of the meaning of the saying, Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law. The manifestation of Will (true will) comes when the individual has compacted themselves like coal into diamond. The more complete and total awareness you have of yourself, the more you will appreciate your potentials and hence the more likely you are to make truly effective decisions regarding the proper use of your resources. Magickal rituals to attract money, love, to manifest the intimate self, which is not truly "higher" but rather co-terminous with you, all depend on the knowledge of what systems for classifying experience work best for you (even if it means inventing your own, and often that is the best way). Two caveats, though: 1) I am also highly skeptical, but am willing to "believe" because I put them on and take them off like a coat or a hat, yet when it comes right down to it, I tend to view magick largely within a psychological paradigm. That would (will?) change if I knew more about physiology and energetic interactions, and here I think the "brain" machines may offer the best hope. Still, I find my best use is as a focal point for others. Physical magickal manipulations I find a bit difficult to do by myself, but I'm open to speculation. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Jonathan Corwin Area: Night Side To: Brynioch 16 Aug 92 05:02:56 Subject: Ceremonial Magick cont' Sent UpdReq 2) You should still familiarize yourself with the different systems of classification -- astrology, tarot, I Ching, runes, Qabala, etc. The reason for this is that there true use, imho, is in acting as an external goad to focus you in mapping your own psychocosmology(ies). Divintory rules are purposely vague because they act as external cues to activate the internal creative processes. How you interpret will teach you something about yourself. Leave divining for others until you can accurately gauge for yourself. Pieces of the pattern *will* fall into place. A much more important reason than this, however, is the simple fact that it not only expands your capacity to think "laterally" (intuitionally) which can be helpful incomplementing linear thinking, but it also internalizes the "grammar" of symbolic systems. Until you've developed this, you won't be able to get the full effect out of improvising your own system. Now, does that help? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frater Almost Area: Night Side To: Chen 16 Aug 92 01:25:16 Subject: Feeding Loas UpdReq What exactly do you mean, Oh Dearest Sister, by "Feeding the Familly Loa"? Is that anything like walking the Chia Pet? ;) Seriously, please give me a brief run-down. Also, I'll be ordering a copy of the VooDoo Tarot in about two to three weeks. And, from what I've seen on your walls, it promises to be .... EXCELLENT!.... ;* Pax. 93 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Gerald Del Campo Area: Night Side To: All 14 Aug 92 21:44:40 Subject: book help UpdReq Greetings, Peace, Health, Prosperity and Respect. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. I am seeking the following books, and was wondering if anyone out there in digital land could help me obtain them. I would be willing to pay a fair price for these. Perhaps some one could point me towards a bookstore? or maybe you or some one you know could use the cash, or has an extra copy? I am looking for these: 1. Collected Works of Aleister Crowley: Tannhauser, The Sword of Song, Time, Elusis. 2. Raja Yoga, by Swami Vivekananda 3. The Shiva Sanhita, or the Hathayoga Praipika 4. The Tao Teh King and the writings of Kwang Tze: Sacred Books of the East XXXIX, XL 5. Rituel et Dogme de la Haute Magie, by Eliphas Levi, or its translation by A.E. Waite. 6. The Goetia of the Lemegeton of Solomon the ing. Any assistance would be appreciated. I can be e-mailed at Shades of Reality BBS, in Medford Oregon. Love is the law, love under will. Gerald del Campo ... RPSTOVAL Oasis: Badges? We don't need no stinking badges! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Karl Lembke Area: Night Side To: Josh Norton 14 Aug 92 08:14:36 Subject: Fear UpdReq JN> * SLMR 2.1a * Does Atlantis have the Buddha-nature? Mu! "I sink, therefore I am (NOT!)" ___ X SLMR 1.0 X Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty!!! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Karl Lembke Area: Night Side To: The Moonshadow 14 Aug 92 08:14:06 Subject: Fear UpdReq TM>no, incest is relative...& just a jump to the left! .....and a step to the right? ___ X SLMR 1.0 X All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: The Moonshadow Area: Night Side To: Grendel 13 Aug 92 08:13:40 Subject: "Fuzzy Bunny Wiccans" UpdReq |GG> out there is superficial and smurf loving. Can you keep | |GG> this in mind while you bash their religion on a network | |GG> that they helped found? | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ whoa, grendel, what's up with all these flames? if you noticed, we were discussing "many wiccan groups", not yer personal wiccans. furthermore, someone who jumped in & out of wicca in the space of a year is hardly qualified to defend it here. obviously you didnt have time to meet the wiccans who think the satanic bible is a really evil document, instead of something good for a few laffs. or the ones who get a terrified look in their eyes when told that the goddess must tear down before she builds up. (too "dark", i guess.) or the discussion on one of the other pagan echoes on "whether destructive magick is ever justified." but then, you have such a low BS tolerance, i guess you just had to avoid that one... i have one question--when these "many wiccans" work with their "dark" gods & "dark" sides, just what is it that they do? are you thinking of saying something other than "try to turn them into lite"? (like they did to the horned god, for instance? as if nature were nice?) if so, you're going to go over the top of *my* BS tolerance! i happen to live with a practicing wiccan who is one of the most irresponsible, insensitive, unsympathetic people i know. (she won't even recycle.) THIS is her "dark" side, grendel! she is totally oblivious to it, & it's not like she's an exception. to her, "dark" means trying to find a way to get around the 3fold law. fuzzy bunnies & crystal weenies are welcome! right now there is plenty of $ to be made on them. i've even had the recent misfortune to see my mentor, a dianic witch (never heard her say "wiccan") for decades, increase the size of her classes to a group so large it takes 2 hours for everyone to introduce themselves! (but this also counts the time it took for at least half a dozen of them to plug the products they make & sell, ad nauseaum. i didnt drive 2.5 hours to listen to this crap. they COULD spend a buck & take out some ads in fanzines.) if this "televangelic wicca", meaning stuff like $350-a-pop "goddess" lectures, keeps up, wicca will fade into the commercial oblivion of yesterday's fad. then the fuzzy bunnies will just go off & find something else to consume. (hm, maybe asatru. all those macho gods...) and who will still be standing when the dust clears? damn, i'd like to chat further, but my dog is whacking me. see ya. ___ MegaMail 2.10 #0 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: The Moonshadow Area: Night Side To: Frc 13 Aug 92 08:13:42 Subject: A question for discus UpdReq |FF> I was Prolocutor of a GD lodge for several years and found it to be | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ a procyon lotor of a god damn lodge? gee! ___ MegaMail 2.10 #0 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: The Moonshadow Area: Night Side To: Vitriol 13 Aug 92 08:13:44 Subject: Book Recommendationso UpdReq |VV> Magick Without Tears, which is meant to be so simple, even a senator | |VV> can understand it! | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ oh really? how about dan quayle? ___ MegaMail 2.10 #0 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: The Moonshadow Area: Night Side To: Josh Norton 13 Aug 92 08:13:46 Subject: Coffin cars UpdReq |JN> which is the closest I can come these days to my beloved GTO. I ache fo| +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ah yes. i had a 1968 yellow convertible. great car! what muscle! ___ MegaMail 2.10 #0 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: The Moonshadow Area: Night Side To: Amazon Lil 13 Aug 92 08:13:48 Subject: Dark, dark and dusty.... UpdReq |AL> find god first, please inform those of us that want to meet | |AL> him/her.... Lil | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ havent you seen god on the highway? 18-wheelers with a big G.O.D. emblazoned on the side? ___ MegaMail 2.10 #0 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: The Moonshadow Area: Night Side To: Josh Norton 13 Aug 92 08:13:50 Subject: Dark, dark and dusty.... UpdReq |JN> Just scream "God is a GIRL and her name is ERIS!" and walk away. | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ yes, & if they come after you, follow the further steps outlined in the principia. ___ MegaMail 2.10 #0 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: The Moonshadow Area: Night Side To: Frater Almost 13 Aug 92 08:13:52 Subject: Drifting Ages Rec'd UpdReq |FA> When I was 15, I was more "laid back" than they are today. | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ was that last year, or the year before? *snicker* ___ MegaMail 2.10 #0 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: The Moonshadow Area: Night Side To: Frc 13 Aug 92 08:13:54 Subject: Fear UpdReq |FF> Now he has me wanting to do it. Fear is an incredible rush! | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ does he bungee jump too? ___ MegaMail 2.10 #0 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: The Moonshadow Area: Night Side To: Charles Nemo 13 Aug 92 08:13:56 Subject: Fear Rec'd UpdReq |CN> distribute, and like the jesters of medieval times they | |CN> manage to fool many mundanes into believing that their | |CN> message is less serious than it really is. Tolerance often | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ or in the case of the church of the subgenius, MORE serious! ___ MegaMail 2.10 #0 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: The Moonshadow Area: Night Side To: Brynioch 13 Aug 92 08:13:58 Subject: Finding a system. UpdReq |BB> The first books on the Occult that I recall reading were 'The Satanic| |BB> Bible', 'The Neconomicon', and 'The Satanic Rituals'. That | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ hee hee, nothing like starting out with a crock. well, at least your reading has improved. ___ MegaMail 2.10 #0 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: The Moonshadow Area: Night Side To: Markie Chao 13 Aug 92 08:13:00 Subject: Geezer City, USA Rec'd UpdReq |MC> Had 8 years on my last husband... | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ too bad it wasnt 8 to 10 with no parole, huh? ;) ___ MegaMail 2.10 #0 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: The Moonshadow Area: Night Side To: Rex Irae 13 Aug 92 08:13:02 Subject: negative magic UpdReq |RI> state in the Union (RI is 98% catholic), I'm not expecting to find | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ really! & i thought nj was bad! ___ MegaMail 2.10 #0 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: The Moonshadow Area: Night Side To: Shadowcloud 13 Aug 92 08:13:04 Subject: Neuro Nauts UpdReq |SS> I'm working on some conference guidelines so we can avoid another Tony | |SS> Lane incident... | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ good luck. just about every echo i've ever been on has had some kinda "tony lane" incident. btw, hi glenn! this is paul in b'ville. nice handle. ___ MegaMail 2.10 #0 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: The Moonshadow Area: Night Side To: Grendel 13 Aug 92 08:13:06 Subject: Wiccans. UpdReq |GG> Funny, in the Thelema echo in the last few months, most of the people | |GG> were agreeing that the Wiccans tend to do a lot more actual | |GG> ritual while the ceremonialists like to sit around and BS | |GG> about the Qabalah forever. Go figure. | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ i'll have to take yer word on what ceremonialists do, i dont know any. hm, are you jumping into thelema now? ___ MegaMail 2.10 #0 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Flashman Area: Night Side To: Markie Chao 13 Aug 92 15:01:14 Subject: Re: Politics and society Rec'd UpdReq In a message of 05-Aug-92, Markie Chao (666:93/93.0) asserted: MC> T> I can't wait till I can crash funni, I mean fundie ;) MC> bbs'. MC> MC> There's a start, I know you meant `crash' in a different way MC> than I do, but why not infiltrate? They acuse us of it, we MC> might as well DO it! Start out sounding like one of them and MC> then start slipping in `dangerous' ideas. The hard cores will MC> catch on eventually but their kids were reading... A good place to start, where you don't even have to disguise your intentions is the ORIGINS echo, (Fidonet C_vs_E gated into PODS). The "scientific creationists" (flat earth Fundies), are leaving themselves WIDE open to dangerous ideas. You can openly question anything they utter, and openly put forth your own point of view AND HAVE A CAPTIVE FUNDIE AUDIENCE READ IT ALL. I'm sure the moderator would be delighted to have you appear. >:-) I'm the only non-christian posting in that echo, anyone wanna join me? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Shadow Mage Area: Night Side To: Flashman 14 Aug 92 03:46:00 Subject: Re: Politics and society UpdReq > A good place to start, where you don't even have to disguise > your intentions is the ORIGINS echo, (Fidonet C_vs_E gated > into PODS). The "scientific creationists" (flat earth > Fundies), are leaving themselves WIDE open to dangerous > ideas. You can openly question anything they utter, and > openly put forth your own point of view AND HAVE A CAPTIVE > FUNDIE AUDIENCE READ IT ALL. I'm sure the moderator would be > delighted to have you appear. >:-) I'm the only non-christian > posting in that echo, anyone wanna join me? Yeah man, i'm already in there having a great time.. I've already been accused of being a Satanic conspiracy, so hey.. Why not? :) Cheerz..Shadow. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Shadow Mage Area: Night Side To: Nrrys 14 Aug 92 03:48:00 Subject: Fear UpdReq > loop? I tried to explain that one can "redirect" fear and > pain into > pleasure. She thinks I am really messed up }:-) > Anyone out there care to comment? Yeah actually, I know what you mean, but then again, alot of magic is basically re-directing energy/emotion anyway, so you might be used to that. Sensation is really only a mental adjustment, I can ignore sharp pain for quite a while by simply disconnecting or blocking I guess my bodys natural reaction to it, and just treating it as another sensation.. Cheerz..Shadow. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Shadow Mage Area: Night Side To: Neuro Sonic 14 Aug 92 03:54:00 Subject: Necrocomnicon? UpdReq > Please tell me as I have asked elsewhere whether people have > considered making comic book pantheons? Comic Book parthenons? Yeah man! They can extremely useful, though usually If i'm using non standard gods I make my own up, but I have on occaisions used the parhtenon out of the Sandman comics... As for Cthulu my image of him is greatly tainted by readin HP Lovecraft etc.. I think he was worshipped in Anchient Sumeria, but what the Sumerian image of Cthulu was is hard to say... As for the paperback Necronomicon... I dunno, personally it looks really dodgy to me, but i've had people tell me that it's fully real etc.. Mainly it just looks like a re hash of some anchient sumarian Scripts and lots of trendy diagrams... If anyones had any success with the Necronomicon in that version i'd like to hear about your experience..> Pax...Shadow. -><- 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Shekhinah Area: Night Side To: Brynioch 14 Aug 92 16:45:02 Subject: Re: Finding a system. UpdReq -=> Quoting Brynioch to Whomever <=- lot's deleted for brevity....... B> I also seem to prefer rituals with more..direction, purpose. B> Rituals that are more...precise (?). B> I'd like to explore other states of consciousness... Go to these B> interesting places that are spoken of in some of Crowley's works. To B> make things happen with magick. B> Does this help any of you out at all towards a suggestion for a B> group/author? I'm open to any or all questions that may help in B> making this determination. I would suggest you look at anything by Dolores Ashcroft-Norwicki. She's the Director of Studies for the SOL, a prolific author, an eclectic magician and her style is accessible without being "light-weight". If you are not currently connected with any group/ temple/ coven, may I recommend her book "The Ritual Magic Workbook" as a great starting place. Most of the work in it suits your stated direction perfectly, and her suggested reading lists and practical exercises and rituals give you more to go on with. Hope it helps, it's somewhere to start anyway. Love, light and peace, S. ... ...Reality is a crutch for those who can't handle Star Trek! ~~~ Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR] 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Shekhinah Area: Night Side To: Jonathan Corwin 14 Aug 92 17:11:04 Subject: Re: A question for discussio Rec'd UpdReq -=> Quoting Jonathan Corwin to Markie Chao <=- JC> Perhaps I wasn't clear; much of the old ceremonial magick I find JC> (not within existing orders, but from "grimoires", etc.) is JC> camouflaged in Christ speak. I haven't yet decided whether this is JC> just an observed code or if the magickians are serious in aspiring to JC> xtian-centered divine will by magickal means (in alchemy, eg). I hope you don't mind me butting in here, I haven't seen the rest of this thread so 'scuse I if I'm missing the point. These older grimoires you've mentioned were often deliberately couched in xtian terminology for the purpose of camouflage. Remember that the crime of heresy usually attracted the death penalty. In the same way, many alchemical formulae were deliberately obscured in the grimoires to make them seem impossible to perform. This served two purposes; one to discourage the "profane" from experimenting, and two so they could claim work of fiction if discovered. I hope this was germaine to your discussion, or at least interesting if it wasn't.....;-) Love, light and peace, S. ... Abandon all hope, ye who enter messages here..... ~~~ Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR] 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Rex Irae Area: Night Side To: Frc 15 Aug 92 12:09:06 Subject: Re: negative magic UpdReq *** Quoting Frc to Rex Irae *** Fr> Then again, you might be surprised. Sometimes in the most Fr> unlikely places... True enough. Of course, evil is just what you make it, really. Nothing saying I'm going to 'pull the metaphysical trigger' either. _ _ / I am seeking the following books, and was wondering if anyone out GDC> there in digital land could help me obtain them. I would be GDC> willing to pay a fair price for these. Perhaps some one could GDC> point me towards a bookstore? or maybe you or some one you know GDC> could use the cash, or has an extra copy? I have an extra copy of the set of AC's Collected Works, but they are still in print, and can be had from Weiser's or the Magickal Childe via mail. (Magickal Childe just issued it's own facsimile of the Goetia, based on the Page facsimile, but with ugly ads in the back.) Weiser's also has all of the other books you list, though they don't always keep Vivekananda in stock. That can be had from East/West books here in NYC, address not with me at the moment, or all the list could be had in San Fransisco between Fields in SF and Shambalah in Berkeley. (Fields is on Polk Street a bit up from Post, and Shambalah is on Telegraph Ave, but you'll have to get the actual addresses from information. It's been a while ... Unable to locate coffee. Operator halted! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Tony Iannotti Area: Night Side To: The Moonshadow 16 Aug 92 13:53:12 Subject: Book Recommendationso Sent UpdReq -=In a missive of 13 Aug 92 08:13:44, The Moonshadow said to Vitriol=- (regarding Book Recommendationso) |VV> Magick Without Tears, which is meant to be so simple, even a senator | |VV> can understand it! | TM> +---------------------------------------------------------------------- TM> -----+ TM> oh really? how about dan quayle? Apart from not noticing how magick is speklled with a k, he'd prolly do fine. ... A closed mouth gathers no foot... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frater Almost Area: Night Side To: All 16 Aug 92 18:01:42 Subject: Wiccans vs. Ceremonialists Sent UpdReq ALright...... A lot of stuff has been said about Wiccans not being dark enough and about Wiccans doing more ritual work than CM's do but I've just gotta say one thing.... My entire life is a ritual. As a ceremonialist, I am now to the point of viewing my llife as one big ritual of balance and counter-balance and co-counter-balance ad infinitum. My life.... My law..... My light...... My love..... My liberty..... This is the true secret. So many folks run around screaming "We are all God-incarnate!" but so few understand what that means. I do not have to do the LBR or the Opening of the Watchtowers or anything like that.... I still do but right now I realize that every action I do is a ritual and that it is the most powerful form of magick ever conceived of by man. Pax. 93 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Charles Nemo Area: Night Side To: Frc 16 Aug 92 19:10:42 Subject: Fear Sent UpdReq CN> He has had more than a few VERY scary individuals who were quite CN> frank in admitting that their wish/goal is to CN> make it "into" a future CN> deck or comic book memorial edition. F> I know you have read _Apocalypse Culture_. F> Remember the interview with F> Peter Santos of _Pure_? That was pretty fucking F> chilly. Such a tasty F> and illicit rush. That guy is _CLEAR_; know what I mean? I know EXACTLY what you mean. Clarity is a key goal on the way to achieving ultimate purpose, but it's the purpose that gets people upset.... Hehehe.... };-) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Charles Nemo Area: Night Side To: Frc 16 Aug 92 19:14:16 Subject: Re: Lovecraft knew... Sent UpdReq CN> "Missionaries are infernal nuisances who CN> ought to be kept at home." CN> ...and dealt with the old-fashioned way so CN> that they do not terrorize CN> helpless animals, small children and old women!" F> Like showing them the "improvements" we have made to their supposed F> contribution (at least the name took) in the Art F> of creating wet spots F> on the mattress? Well, that'd do for a start. Maybe they'd have heart attacks and get out the easy way. Actually, though, I had something a bit more "fundamental" in mind. Nothing that they haven't done themselves in past centuries though..... Hehehe.... };-) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Charles Nemo Area: Night Side To: The Moonshadow 16 Aug 92 19:18:36 Subject: Fear Sent UpdReq |CN> distribute, and like the jesters of medieval |CN> times they | |CN> manage to fool many mundanes into believing |CN> that their | |CN> message is less serious than it really is. |CN> Tolerance often | TM> +------------------------------------------------- TM> --------------------------+ TM> or in the case of the church of the subgenius, MORE serious! Where it's at is not always where it appears to be. And sometimes not even then.... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Charles Nemo Area: Night Side To: Azoth 16 Aug 92 20:17:44 Subject: Klein Sent UpdReq Just finished "Dark Gods" and "The Ceremonies". Both excellent! Thanks for the recommendations! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Markie Chao Area: Night Side To: Barak 16 Aug 92 23:31:54 Subject: Mezlim Sent UpdReq B> us on the Thanatos front. Do you think you could B> have your submission in by the end of August? It I'll even promise it..I work so well under pressure. ;) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Markie Chao Area: Night Side To: The Moonshadow 16 Aug 92 23:39:52 Subject: Geezer City, USA Sent UpdReq TM> too bad it wasnt 8 to 10 with no parole, huh? ;) Give me time (no additional pun), he's got on my nerves enough to pull the skeletons out of the closet...bad Scorpio, bad bad! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Markie Chao Area: Night Side To: Flashman 16 Aug 92 23:42:38 Subject: Re: Politics and b-bs-ing Sent UpdReq F> A good place to start, where you don't even have to F> disguise your intentions is the ORIGINS echo, F> (Fidonet C_vs_E gated into PODS). The "scientific F> creationists" (flat earth Fundies), are leaving F> themselves WIDE open to dangerous ideas. You can F> openly question anything they utter, and openly put F> forth your own point of view AND HAVE A CAPTIVE F> FUNDIE AUDIENCE READ IT ALL. I'm sure the moderator And they don't even delete the good posts like most xtian boards? Get Nemo going on this one, I have no time for fundies. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718