From: Brynioch Area: Night Side To: Jonathan Corwin 11 Aug 92 12:25:00 Subject: Re: Chaos and learning magick UpdReq In a message dated 06 Aug 92 22:30:48, Jonathan Corwin wrote: JC> None of this comes overnight. Most changes of views come through JC> informed discussion and/or willingness to learn and probe JC> experiences. The CM vernacular tends to be heavily symbolically JC> oriented (hence some of Crowley's JC> "difficult" writing), and is most successful when that symbolism JC> unites with JC> reality, offering experiences that can cause deep shifts in reality JC> by expanding and altering perceptions of reality (the question of JC> whether reality or perception of reality is being changed is largely JC> academic for purposes of this discussion). I get the impression that part of what CM's do is ... mental reworking, becoming ones own psychiatrist. Finding outlooks, perceptions, preconceptions that are useless and changing them to something more beneficial. Here's a tricky point that i've always been worried about. How does one know that its not only his perceptions that have been changed? What I mean is how does one know that the ...results/effects of magick aren't just in his mind, self-delusion with no objective manifestation. I've been told that magick is more subjective than objective... Is it all then just self-delusion? Tricking your mind into believing that your doing something when your not? I honestly believe that there IS something to it all... But I am a bit of a sceptic I haven't had any of these nifty supernatural experiences I hear about. The rituals I've been in gave me a minor tingle (once), but other than that, nothing came from them... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Brynioch Area: Night Side To: Markie Chao 11 Aug 92 12:32:00 Subject: Re: Book Recommendations. Rec'd UpdReq In a message dated 07 Aug 92 18:43:12, Markie Chao wrote: MC> Ok, I'll check with the house librarian and see what we have around, MC> there may even be some files on the nets to look into. As for MC> Crowley, I read him unprepared long ago and would agree with you in MC> my own case, but not for everyone. I've always been an avid reader MC> and good student, and one could argue that this should be a MC> requirement for someone getting into this stuff in the first place, MC> but I think starting everyone out on something that challenging could MC> put off some people who may have a lot to gain from more basic MC> reading. It did put me off when I first read it, the same as 'Gems of the Equinox'. I've picked up a copy of 'Magic, an Occult Primer' by.... Conway. He tries to explain things from a ...logical and skeptical point of view. As for the actual studies of these occult books that CM's seem to be always doing. What is it that you research? Is it experimentation mainly, using the rituals and techniques that are given? Or is it also checking the sources of the author for validity? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Brynioch Area: Night Side To: Markie Chao 11 Aug 92 12:36:00 Subject: Re: Book Recommendation for Newbies. Rec'd UpdReq In a message dated 07 Aug 92 18:48:16, Markie Chao wrote: MC> if a Wiccan wanted MC> to branch out into CM, where else would he/she go? There are a MC> variety of people who frequent this echo with a variety of ideas and MC> suggestions based on our own experiences, gather opinions and make MC> your own way. Just to let y'all know. I really don't consider myself Wiccan, or anything for that matter. I've just been involved with a Coven at one time, found it not really for me and am in the process of finding what clicks for me. B> Could someone explain what Chaos magick really is? MC> Have you read the file on this that I wrote? it's a general MC> introduction which serves the purpose of keeping me from repeating MC> myself. I'm not sure... If it was posted on this echo I probably have it captured somewhere. I don't have the ability to file-request from this board, so any texts I get are captured off the echo. B> Does the Chaos Magician tap into or use primal B> forces? Or is it something more? MC> Yes and yes. You have the basic idea, tapping into primal forces. MC> Something more always exists because Chaos uses whatever works from MC> any system. Chaos is understanding the basic nature of magic rather MC> than attaching to a system of belief or ritual. Free belief is MC> something Spare wrote about...freeing yourself from all beliefs which MC> only limit you so that all things are possible. Sounds like quite a long and arduous (sp?) path. Even just identifying all one's harmful beliefs would take years I would think. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Brynioch Area: Night Side To: Vitriol 11 Aug 92 12:41:00 Subject: Re: Book Recommendations UpdReq In a message dated 06 Aug 92 08:06:14, Vitriol wrote: -=> Brynioch sent a message to Markie Chao on 08-01-92 12:57 <=- -=> Re: Book Recommendations. <=- B> As for Crowley, I an understand why he might B> have wanted to be obscure. Makes the prospective student B> work harder and trying to understand what the hell he was B> talking about. V> BTW, if you get tired of fighting this, you may want to check out V> Magick Without Tears, which is meant to be so simple, even a senator V> can understand it! Thank you for the recommendation. I have seen this book in local occult book stores and will check it out... I've just bought a copy of Conway's 'Magic an Occult Primer', I don't know how this book rates but it seems interesting... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Neuro Sonic Area: Night Side To: Black Dog 13 Aug 92 02:24:22 Subject: IOT MOUNTAIN TRIBES UpdReq >Ecstacy delivers Secret Knowledge! Well, I haven't as of yet, experimented with MDMA myself, so I fail to be able to comment on your reply. The meaning is Tantric, in the way of Ra-Hoor-Khuit the union, and ecstacy of samhadhi and absolute experience. Coming from Quasahi Abraassa Ananael, my magickal motto at present. Neuro--- Aka Frater Q.A.A. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Neuro Sonic Area: Night Side To: Fra.: Apfelmann 13 Aug 92 02:29:10 Subject: Unicorn UpdReq Got an address for Snail correspondence? Neuro Sonic -93 93/93 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Azoth Area: Night Side To: Josh Norton 12 Aug 92 08:12:04 Subject: Re: Enochian Lexicon UpdReq 93, Josh! JN| >hypothesize that Dee simply never got around to rectifying his Liber JN| >with the T.R.. JN| It may be that the rectifications were among those papers lost when Mr. JN| Jones' maid used them for pie plates. More papers were lost than JN| survived. I sometimes wonder what marvels were destroyed in her efforts JN| to keep the kitchen table clean. The mind boggles. It's like we've got the shop manual, all but the chapters on the transmission and the brakes.... JN| You should note also that some of the sigils shown in the Scientiae JN| tables don't match the sigils shown on the Tablets. And some of the JN| latter are drawn in such a way that you can't tell in what sequence the JN| letters should be used in the name. I'll leave it to you to figure it JN| all out. Gee, thanks! With any luck, by the time I'm to the T.R., I'll have devised workable heuristics, having started with the older versions of the Tables, which should provide better correlations. BTW, I posted some code, source and executable, for Enochian gematria and name extraction on Baphonet, Cathouse and Mumbo Jumbo Kathedral. The gematria and Enochian Tablets can both be loaded from disk, so experiments come easy. JN| >somehow never got around to anything serious. I like the object JN| >oriented approach to things, though, which can be applied in just JN| >about any language, once you get the mind set. JN| complicated no matter what. I've never seen how it was less complicated JN| to have a hundred "objects" with thirty internal routines each that you JN| have to remember, than it is to have three thousand routines buried in a JN| C library that you have to remember. Either one is a pain. Hehe. Right. A language like C++ can substantially cut the 'API glut', with judicious use of operator overloading, polymorphism and defaulted. parameters. Such 'judicious use' does, unfortunately, place a heavy burden on the designer, who then needs to think beyond the immediate requirements, and into the general characteristics of the proposed solution. The expressiveness of C++ or SMallTalk does hold a hope that those general characteristics can at least be coded. Something's gotta give. The complexity of the Windows or X API is absurd when I, the 'pre-user', just want a bloody window, and a button or two. Just finished putting a new motherboard in my development machine here, so maybe I can get a little more work done: 486-33 w/16M, running DesqView-X. Any of 5 simultaneous builds under DV/X using the MicroSoft compiler are faster (like x2) than a single build under DOS on my old 386SX, while I'm downloading a file at 9.6k and doing offline mail. Cripes! There go the coffee breaks. (The thing's like 2/3 as fast as the HP/Apollo I use at my day job....) JN| Aren't there some equivalents of the Calls associated with Logaeth? Or JN| are those extracted from the tables? I'm unaware of any but the Enochian Calls, though I seem to recall reading that _they_ were extracted from Logaeth, in some fashion that is not yet clearly understood (maybe by 'pasting the sheets' some of those high coordinate numbers can be accomodated...) .93 93/93 ___ X JABBER v1.2 X Gimme dat Ol' Time Religion...Gimme dat Zoroastrianism... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vitriol Area: Night Side To: Markie Chao 13 Aug 92 08:13:50 Subject: Re: Thantos Rec'd UpdReq -=> Markie Chao sent a message to The Moonshadow on 08-09-92 13:17 <=- -=> Thantos <=- MC> A well balanced magician can blend from dark to light and MC> back again at will...;) "The ReVeRSeR correctly channels flow." * BWave/QWK v0.96 * Sand Creek - We will never forget. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vitriol Area: Night Side To: Josh Norton 13 Aug 92 08:13:52 Subject: Re: Mag_text.zip UpdReq -=> Josh Norton sent a message to Vitriol on 08-08-92 13:53 <=- -=> Re: Mag_text.zip <=- JN> Heh. I made it up. I was looking at the A.S. numeration one day, and JN> it just popped into my head that since there were 21 Angelic letters, JN> and 21 = 3 times 7, it might be interesting to create a gematria that JN> covered exactly three orders of magnitude in a number base. Hence JN> Octal, which does that. I've never gotten anything useful out of it, JN> but wasn't expecting to, since it's as arbitrary as the A.S. system. Actually, it looked interesting to me once I started punching in some stuff -- like some of my names. JN> I don't think we're ever going to come up with a good gematria for JN> Angelic until we discover what the real attributes (if any) are of the JN> letters. I hear there's some attributes (and some numeric values) JN> given in Dee's notes, but haven't ever seen them. I think I said the same thing (re finding the "one true" enochian gematria) to Azoth a little while ago. * BWave/QWK v0.96 * =+=Vitriol=+= 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Amazon Lil Area: Night Side To: Markie Chao 13 Aug 92 09:30:48 Subject: The battery powered God AZO Rec'd UpdReq Children's Pallace is going out of business! I must go soon and see if i can find God.....He's half price now! Lil 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: Night Side To: Amazon Lil 12 Aug 92 13:03:00 Subject: A question for discussio UpdReq AL>Pardon me for butting in, but magick as a personal >experience is secualr...as a "system" with "orders" and >"grades" it can only be built upon what has come before. >Once I was involved with writing a feminist Quabala...It >was soon realised that the idea itself could not exist in a >balanced form...It was scrapped. Lil Seems to me that Maggie's Maatian cabala came pretty close to being all-feminine. Or is that different from "feminist"? * SLMR 2.1a * How do I get OFF this planet?? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: Night Side To: Neuro Sonic 12 Aug 92 13:08:02 Subject: Necrocomnicon? UpdReq NS>Do you take the Necronomicon seriously, kid? >Please tell me as I have asked elsewhere whether people >have considered making comic book pantheons? Yeah! How 'bout the Fantastic Four? The Thing is obviously Earth, being made of orange rocks. The girl is water. The leader is a pedantic intellectual type, so he's air. I can't remember the other man's superpower -- would he fit with the element of Fire? * SLMR 2.1a * Sic Biscuitum Disintegrandum 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Gerald Del Campo Area: Night Side To: Arthur Rosene 14 Aug 92 00:28:40 Subject: Re: herbal freedom! UpdReq 93 Arthur! In a message dated 12 Aug 92 23:40:44, Arthur Rosene wrote: AR> Hi.. yeah, the fda just raided Whole Foods Market here in Houston AR> recently..seems like control is a major issue for those bastards.. AR> They confiscated all this stuff that was pretty safe, like CoQ10. Shit! The FDA is being permitted to do this already???? Isn't CQ10 and element one can take to boost their immune system? Can't believe how far this "war on drugs" bullshit has gone. It's time for a new order of things... and I don't mean a "New World Order". It is ironic that Bush would use the same term as Hitler used. Love is the Law. Gerald ... RPSTOVAL Oasis: Badges? We don't need no stinking badges! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Chen Area: Night Side To: Markie Chao 13 Aug 92 12:30:32 Subject: Politics and society Rec'd UpdReq Howdie... MC> I MC> usually avoid politics but in recent years the MC> transformation of our `free' society to a police state MC> has been getting on my nerves. The republican attempt It does seem impossible to avoid politics-- no one WANTS to spend their time in the street parading with idiot posters and ranting at deaf adversaries. .. Non-action seems pretty blind as well. I can never figure out why we should bother to incarn if the goal is non-attachment. There are so many restrictions on our right to simply live and follow our bliss however, that any action becomes political-- even the choice to not participate. I find that in a country in which the act of exercising one's imagination is taboo, the practice of Magick becomes an act of defiance--the secret treason of free Will. Good luck to the control freaks in trying to repress THAT! We can recognize the power of relentless imaginative resistance in a society where , for instance, bulimia is an epidemic of fashion controlled by the media! Women are not allowed. Soul and imagination are not allowed. I go to the steps of the oldest Catholic Church in the country and feed the Loa, Erzulie ge-rouge on the eve of abortion law rulings, etc. Well... you get the idea... Have fun, and don't let them get you down. Power to the State,smash the people. LOVE/WILL CHEN 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Nachash Area: Night Side To: Vitriol 14 Aug 92 04:18:24 Subject: Access UpdReq Vitriol, 93. Your access has been upgraded so you can call back at will. The electronic version the the latest _Bahlasti Papers_ will be out very soon. Although the electronic versions run around 40+ k, they are lacking some text and all of the great artwork. To subscribe send a money order or check made out to cash to: Kali Lodge P.O. Box 15038 New Orleans, LA 70115 Look for the new BAHLASTI echo... it will be a interactive electronic version of the Bahlasti Papers that will prove to be very interesting. Soror Chen will be the Grand Moderator-ette. Thanks for calling and hope to hear from you soon. 93 93/93 NChSh ... Papa Gd bel Ga'on! L'habill tout en noi'! Pou'l mont au Palais! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Tony Iannotti Area: Night Side To: Turbator 14 Aug 92 10:17:38 Subject: Re: Black Moon Pro Sent UpdReq -=In a missive of 31 Jul 92 17:39:51, Turbator said to Tony Iannotti=- (regarding Re: Black Moon Pro) T> Actually, it was after my reply to you was entered, that I found T> out who was involved. The description was merely an amalgamation of T> all of the dim, brutal bullies I have encountered in my life. I have T> never met Achad Oscher (sp?) but have heard many entertaining tales. Yes, he has engendered more legends than most people I know. T> Perhaps one day our respective journeys will bring us to the same T> crossroads. I hope so. 93! ... Looking for the paradigm, so I can pass it on... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Markie Chao Area: Night Side To: Josh Norton 14 Aug 92 18:13:18 Subject: Coffin cars Sent UpdReq Can't say I have ever attempted to enter the driver's side of any form of Toyota. My sugar daddy tried to get me in a Honda when we were car shopping...let's just say that all my height comes from long legs and by the time I get low enough to get in the seat, the side of the steering wheel is hitting me about mid-thigh to keep me from getting in. Hate to have to leave in a hurry...with my feet curled around the steering column and up on the dashboard and all... ;) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Markie Chao Area: Night Side To: Shadow Mage 14 Aug 92 18:16:18 Subject: Book Sent UpdReq Slowly. I keep having to waste all my brilliance writing legal stuff, but it wont last forever. I'm giving priority for my next article to Mezlim right now because I have a deadline to meet, but I have most of a rough draft for my history chapter done on the book. All I need is a little time to work on it. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Markie Chao Area: Night Side To: Fra.: Apfelmann 14 Aug 92 18:18:44 Subject: Translations Sent UpdReq Perhaps if I had copies I could keep checking with my ever-fluctuating circle of friends until I find someone...? Or failing that, I could take some German classes and sucker a teacher to help out...special talent I have for recruiting help. ;) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Markie Chao Area: Night Side To: Fra.: Apfelmann 14 Aug 92 18:21:26 Subject: your letter Sent UpdReq > See what happens when you `expect' things? ;) FA> you (better I) get another one ! Always! I will send you a copy of the whole chapter when I get it done. Other pressing matters have slowed things... FA> wanted to, the only thing is to send 2 copies of it FA> to me, so that I can forward one of them to Fra.: FA> U.D. ... Ok, 2 copies. No problem. :) As long as he gives me a good review for the book jacket. :D > Thundersqueak. FA> Oh, in my opinion it is one of the best workings from Lionell ! That is what I have heard. It is sitting next to my bed with the others...I need to stay off the computer and spend my time reading! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Markie Chao Area: Night Side To: Fra.: Apfelmann 14 Aug 92 18:26:24 Subject: Clann Animals Sent UpdReq FA> Can you get the books of Dr. Johanna Wagner in english ??? I'll check. Something tells me this is going to be another interesting line of research...;) Did you like that one? It was the first one that I ever had printed. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Markie Chao Area: Night Side To: Fra.: Apfelmann 14 Aug 92 18:28:36 Subject: Kenneth Grant Sent UpdReq > I thought that was a secret...;) FA> tss, and you know about it ? :-) Of course! ;) I'm not sure if I agree with Crowley's philosophy on that one, but I do seem to find myself in crossroads where secrets get revealed often. It keeps life interesting. :) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Markie Chao Area: Night Side To: Chen 14 Aug 92 18:31:10 Subject: Art Sent UpdReq I just learned that Nemo plans to surprise me with a deck of those VooDoo cards we were talking about the other night. Another one of those secrets that didn't get by me...I'll let you know what I think. :) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Markie Chao Area: Night Side To: Josh Norton 14 Aug 92 18:34:40 Subject: A question for discussio Sent UpdReq JN> Forgive me, Markie, but just where is there something NEW in Chaos JN> magick? In all the stuff I've seen so far, whether here or in JN> publications, it's just borrowing from older Who claimed there was anything new? The whole idea is to strip away all the various bullshgit of `new' systems and recognize the way magic works in and of itself. JN> characteristics of Chaos magick are things Crowley was saying almost a JN> century ago, and are indistiguishable from the way Yep, Crowley was acquainted with Spare and each of them figured out some very important stuff. Modern Chaos gets a whole lot of information out of Spare's books, whatever flavour. I first got the word Chaos out of Spare's books, before learning of any newer groups. JN> over the same old stuff. Where's the radical break JN> with the past that I JN> keep hearing about? At risk of repeating myself here, the only radical break is the break from slavery to religion and superstition. All systems are valid; whatever symbolism works for you, is the right one. JN> I DON'T mean to sound denigrating -- I'm JN> frustrated. I really ache for a JN> genuinely new way of looking at the magickal universe, something that JN> takes a jump to a whole new level of significance over all current and JN> prior systems. There's been five or six "generations" of magickal There will be new fads, groups, regurgitated philosophies..for all time to come. If you want a new one of your own, make it up! JN> you know that the "pool" has unlimited energy JN> available? Maybe it simply JN> has more energy than you are able to draw. And how do you know that it JN> is universally available, given that no human has JN> ever practiced magick JN> outside the Earth? Perhaps it is a local phenomenon. Seems to me that A couple of valid points... Ok, maybe there are some limitations to magical possibility somewhere along the line. But as long as I don't limit myself with self imposed or taught limitations, I can "be all I can be" magically. many magical `systems' are limiting through old religious hangover influences, through ethical teachings, or whatever. Why limit ourselves? The other point, well, when we get into space travel or communication with other planets/universes whatever, it should make a great study. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Markie Chao Area: Night Side To: Frc 14 Aug 92 18:47:26 Subject: Re: Coffin cars Sent UpdReq F> DWM, 6'4'', grn eyes, blnd hair, 34. Looking F> for....blah-blah-woof-woof! !!!!! That's it, Nemo goes. ;) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Markie Chao Area: Night Side To: Frc 14 Aug 92 18:49:16 Subject: Re: A question for discussio Sent UpdReq F> The mental image of "the flow" when the synch is F> really locked-in tight and F> all the right juices are flowing is finding myself F> working on a machine, F> and _just_ when I need a particular part or tool I F> simply reach out into F> the cartoon whirlwind constantly on the verge of F> coalescing about me, and F> find _just_ the right tool or material I needed at F> that instant. When I F> finish with it, I toss it back into that from whence it came....... Thank-you, I needed that. ;) I haven't been expressing myself well on this one recently. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Markie Chao Area: Night Side To: Frc 14 Aug 92 18:51:32 Subject: Re: Politics and society Sent UpdReq F> and what should appear at the door but Jehova......er...PREY! F> And cleverly disguised as human beings at that. I F> could see the _Watchtowers_ F> in their hands thru the peep-hole....I tiptoed over F> to the stero and gave F> 'em _Jesus Wept_ (Current 93) at a few hundred F> decibels; the opening of the F> door coinciding with the first chants. I had a copy F> of _Flames From Hell_ F> in my hands (which WAS what I had been reading when the doorbell rang.) I LIKE! Nemo doesn't want be being that blatant though, afraid his house will get vandalized. It could happen, it's a bad neighborhood (yuppoids!). 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Markie Chao Area: Night Side To: Frc 14 Aug 92 18:54:42 Subject: Re: Book Recommendation for Newbies. Sent UpdReq From what I've read here from you and the rest of the Purgatory crowd, I expect I could get very interested in ToS...however...getting visibly involved with a recognized SATANIC GROUP (oh my!) is just what my ex would love...cannon fodder. Soon as he dies... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Markie Chao Area: Night Side To: Brynioch 14 Aug 92 18:57:38 Subject: Re: Book Recommendations. Sent UpdReq B> As for the actual studies of these occult books that CM's seem to be B> always doing. What is it that you research? Is it B> experimentation mainly, using the rituals and B> techniques that are given? Or is it also checking B> the sources of the author for validity? (excuse as I get back off the floor from the hysterical laughter...) Ahem, ok here is my personal use/philosophy of magic books; I'll read anything that may potentially have value. I never, NEVER use `recipe rituals' as I call them. Not even the socially acceptable ones you read about here on the echos. I make my own rituals, based on basic concepts that you'll find different vewrsions of in most magical books, even the wiccan ones, according to each situation. Validity of an author depends on whether anything he says has any personal meaning or value to ME. History, pedigree and all that stuff has acedemical interest, but in actual practice of magic it is totally unimportant. I don't care who the original source is, just how the method works. I was experimenting long before I ever read anything, just because magic happens and it has to be dealt with. So there you go, I'm a radical among radicals, don't join groups, yet I can work with other people if I choose by politly going along with their methods, no problem there. The only writings that ever hit home with me are Austin Osman Spare and those who have learned from him since, which would include Ramsey Dukes, P. Carroll, Ray Sherwin, and Frater U.D. Each of these have wonderful ideas of their own, but the philosophy leans in the same direction. There you go, I've got my shovel ready...;) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Markie Chao Area: Night Side To: Brynioch 14 Aug 92 19:08:14 Subject: Re: Book Recommendation for Newbies. Sent UpdReq B> Just to let y'all know. I really don't consider myself Wiccan, or B> anything for that matter. I've just been involved B> with a Coven at one time, found it not really for me B> and am in the process of finding what clicks for me. I think a great many of us come across our first occult contacts that way. B> I'm not sure... If it was posted on this echo I B> probably have it captured somewhere. I don't have B> the ability to file-request from this board, so any B> texts I get are captured off the echo. It's also in article form in Mezlim Vol.2 #2 B> Sounds like quite a long and arduous (sp?) path. B> Even just identifying all one's harmful beliefs B> would take years I would think. Yes and no, it's life-long learning as far as identifying harmful beliefs goes, but more a shift in philosophy that makes that become easier as you get more practice. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frater Almost Area: Night Side To: Fra.: Apfelmann 14 Aug 92 19:20:50 Subject: Sound-Off! Sent UpdReq I can try to translate them. I have a dictionary and I understand the rudiments of that language. I am not proficient in German by any means but always willing to try to help. :) Pax. 93 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Miaren Avianna Area: Night Side To: Markie Chao 14 Aug 92 05:37:18 Subject: Necrocronimiconominon UpdReq 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718