From: Darklord Area: Night Side To: Gerald Del Campo 7 Jun 92 15:12:00 Subject: Re: Satanism and Socialism UpdReq GD> GD> How could limiting the amount of money which is pent on $500 GD> toilet GD> GD> seats, and using that money to heal people who are sick take GD> away GD> GD> from your rights. Socialism isn't about taxing you to pay for GD> GD> someone elses medical care; it is about government learning to GD> use GD> GD> its tax payers money in a way that benefits the tax payer. Our GD> GD> present economy is not adequate enough to ensure that anyone who GD> may GD> GD> want health insurance can afford it. Most people spend GD> everything GD> GD> they make just trying to feed their families and rent/morgage. GD> D> Well if you pay the Doctors for someone's medical care why GD> not GD> D> their rent/morgage. If people are given free medical care why GD> D> shouldn't everything be free. GD> GD> I don't understand how you can say that providing people with their GD> basic medical needs means we have to give them housing. Well wher does it stop. Isn't housing a basic need. It is like the deficit. Well we will borrow a little this year to get by and then the next a little more and a little more until we end up with a $3+ trillion deficit. Where do you draw the line on how much government should do? The government does not no when to stop. If we provide a little now it will get larger and larger until it controls everything. Today the government will control medical, and tomorrow housing, then what, your life? GD> D> In order to give everyone adiquate helath care the federal GD> government GD> D> would have to socialize medicine which violates the doctors right GD> to GD> D> choose how much they can charge. GD> GD> Doctors must take an oath when they become doctors; and oath they GD> violate everytime they refuse some one on the basis of insufficient GD> amount of money. Hey if that's the doctors porogitive so be it. If doctors would not violate there oath we would not be arguing the merits of socialised medicine. GD> D> Look at Canada, they have a shortage of doctors do to socialized GD> D> medicine. People have to wait 6 months or more for routine GD> surgery. I GD> D> think it is a better idea to allow a somewhat unfair system to be GD> in GD> D> practice instead of having a shortage of care for everyone. GD> GD> Here you have something: There are more doctors in the state of GD> California than in the whole ocuntry of Canada. The fact that people GD> are greedy shouldn't surprise you. Why make 50,000 a year saving GD> lives when you could service the rich and well-off in a country that GD> doesn't regulate doctors for 100,000 a year? Also, people in Canada GD> DO NOT wait 6 months for surgery; this propaganda is spewed by GD> special interest groups who do not want medicine socialized...namely: GD> AMA. insurance companies, FDA, etc. Well, for most surgery there is a wait( up to 6 mon.), and some surgeries can not be done in Canada because there is no one proficient in the type of procedure needed to be done so they have to came to the U.S. GD> D> We do have representation. If you don't like your GD> representation GD> D> do something to change it. GD> Like what? Voting? Our representativesa re doing a fine job GD> representing us, but we have a trigger happy President who sides with GD> big business and vetos everything that "we, the people" have voiced. Hey, I didn't like Bush from the start. It is everybody else that voted for him. GD> GD> Say you want to go to school to become a rocket scientist but GD> you GD> GD> can't afford it. Your next door neighbor's kid, not being a 93d GD> a GD> GD> intelligent and capable as yourself get's to go to rocket GD> scientist GD> GD> school because his father has had more opportunity than you GD> father at GD> GD> economic growth. Unless EVERYONE has the same opportunity for GD> GD> success we cannot say that we live in a trully Democratic GD> society, GD> GD> where the premise is that everyone is created equal. GD> D> That is why you need to do good in school to get GD> scholarships. If GD> D> you are smart enough to be a scientist you should be able to get GD> a GD> D> scholarships. If that doesn't cover it then get a federal loan. GD> Take GD> D> Germany for example, everyone is guarenteed free college GD> education, GD> D> but their is an overflow of students. You can only take classes GD> that GD> D> are neccessary for your major and nothing else, and you must GD> finish GD> D> in 4 years. Having everything equal is not natural and does not GD> work GD> D> it is communism. GD> Germany has a socialized school system. Intelligent kids are often GD> overlooked for scholarships in favor of some other political/finacial GD> significant student. AND, you have once again confused communism GD> with socialism. True equality can only be achieved through the philosophy of communism. The U.S. has the best Collegic program in the world and it is under a capitalistic system. GD> GD> D> It is in my opinion that the only duty of the federal GD> government GD> GD> D> is to profide for a national defense and to insure the GD> protection of GD> GD> D> our people at home and abroad from agretion or violation of GD> there GD> GD> D> human rights by a country or organazation. GD> GD> While I agree with you here, I have to point to the fact that GD> GD> government has been "protecting" us from made-up foes as an GD> excuse to GD> GD> spend billions of dollars a year on some make believe enemy. GD> The War GD> GD> on Drugs is a perfect indicator of the tactics our government GD> will GD> GD> use in order to justify spending our hard earned dollars. While GD> GD> obscene amounts of money are being thrown away by the military, GD> GD> thousands are going hungry. Couldn't those hungry citizens use GD> those GD> GD> tax dollars to feed themselves? What about those poor GD> "expendible" GD> GD> individuals we call soldiers who give their last drop of blood GD> for GD> GD> this country? is it fair that their fatherless children will GD> not GD> GD> recieve any compensation for their father's contribution to the GD> GD> welfare of the country? GD> D> So what thier isn't a drug problem? We should alow our people GD> to GD> D> have all the food they want plus be high? GD> If you want to kill yourself using drugs, that is your perogative. GD> But don't make citizens pay for a non-existant war. Treatment and GD> education are the keys to doing away with the drug proble. I have no problem with people using drugs as long as it doesn't affect anybody else. We need both the treatment and the protection on the borders. GD> D> As for the poor common soldier's survivors they get military and GD> social GD> D> security compensation until they are 21. GD> Gee. Well that makes me feel alot better about dying for a country GD> that has done nothing but lie to me. SO what? Do you think this is GD> a fair price for life? Well lets see. $300 a month for 21 years. Yeah thats close enough for me. The government is not a mericle worker, it can not bring people back to life. GD> D> Well in a democratic society we can only hope to do what is GD> best GD> D> for the majority. If people die so be it. If you want everyone to GD> D> have medical care and be equal move to a more communistic GD> society. GD> Again, you have confused communism with socialism. What if YOU were GD> dying? then, perhaps you'd be whisling a different tune. What is GD> trully scary is that the normally questioning and rebellious youth GD> are buying this government distributed propaganda; and you are a GD> perfect example of its effectiveness. Don't you ever question? I question the government more than you. I just feel that socialism is not the way to go. I believe scratch this government and start over. I want a losely connected society with out government introverntion. If you can't afford health care, well die then it is not the governments responsibility. GD> D> And by the time they do this there would be not money for GD> food. GD> I assure you that with what we spend on 1 day on the military we GD> could feed most of the hungry in this country. But, why should we. If we kept everyone alive and healthy then the U.S would get over populated. GD> GD> If you were in an accident and needed a heart transplant and GD> were GD> GD> waiting for a donor; and one of the Rothchilds suddenly needed a GD> GD> heart: who do YOU think would get that heart? (Excuse the GD> example, GD> GD> it's the only one I could come up with in such short notice ;)) GD> D> Well the rich one of course, but if people would go by the GD> D> guidlines set up by the organ bank I would get it. It depends if GD> they GD> D> go by the guidlines or not. GD> In a capitalist society, where money is the ultimate goal; you would GD> die waiting for a transplant. Well you should of had more money I guess. There is no way to guarentee everyone could have a transplant without controling people's organs. GD> GD> Dependence is something that does occur in some socialist GD> GD> societies...the intelligent ones have learned to deal with the GD> GD> problem. GD> D> Dependence should not be allowed. If you have to rely on the GD> D> government their is something wrong with you. Man was made to be GD> self GD> D> sufficient and if he isn't their is a defect and should not be GD> put on GD> D> the burden of the rest of society. GD> Unless, of course, society is the reason that man is becoming les, GD> and less sifficient. Think about it. Not society neccesarily, but peoples dependence on it causes the problems. GD> Like what? They lead us in medicine, science, etc. We are the big GD> playground bully with lots of money, we concer ourselves with being GD> superior and stronger. WHile we continue to stroke ourselves Europe GD> laughs. Well then why has most of the drugs and scientific breakthroughs come from the U.S. ? GD> D> And our government is not getting fat, the defict grows each day. GD> The GD> D> third largest budget in the world is the U.S. welfare area(U.S. GD> News and GD> D> World Report). GD> Perhaps you'd like to compare this figure against military spending? GD> THAT, my firend, is the problem...not the 15% we spend on social GD> programs. Next years budget will spend more on welfare the on the Military. GD> D> Money can't solve the problem, only self independence can. GD> Yes, it is certanly easier and more productive to put the blame on GD> the people than to lower military spending. Lowering military spending would not solve the problem. You are the one that has been fed the bullshit from the government about if we cut defense we can provide everything for the people. GD> The original message on this question is gone. If you can post it GD> I'll answer it. I can't find it. GD> If you believe that our government has me and you in its best GD> interest, and not money and power; then your mind has already been GD> sucked clean. Money and power are in everyones interest. The more you have the better off you are. 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