From: RAINLAKE Area: Mundane To: FARRELL MCGOVERN 27 Oct 94 02:59:18 Subject: Metaphysical UpdReq -> SW> Farrell, I was under the impression that sysops were -> SW> required to make the Metaphysical area read-only on -> SW> their boards. -> -> That is one option, Well, it's read-only on the board I use, and I do have a post ready for Metaphysical, and yes, it's a magazine-style article...I know 'cuz I wrote it for a magazine. So I'll take you up on an offer to a previous poster and send it to your Internet address, if that's still okay. Thanks. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Amethyst Area: Mundane To: Jess Buckley 26 Oct 94 22:49:38 Subject: Re: Abortion stuff in Metaphysical UpdReq JB> Such a vast majority of abortions should never JB> have been necessary, many times because the woman had no access to birth JB> control or because like you, she was not given her freedom to choose in JB> a protected environment. We need to support every woman, particularly JB> those who choose to bear their children. This is one thing that I JB> like about Wiccans and Witches, we have a community lifestyle that JB> encourages standing by each other. One of the biggest problems I have JB> with the Pro-Choice movement, is that they are NOT HONEST. Even JB> if an abortion is the only choice a woman feels she has, she needs JB> counselling and support. This is the hardest decision ever made, even JB> when MADE WELL it has, as you pointed out lasting psychological effects. JB> When made WRONGLY it can destroy people's lives forever. JB> Such a vast number of women do not make this decision well. They do JB> not have a full set of facts before them, and this is what I believe JB> must be changed. Neither side of the debate in the public sector has JB> behaved very well on this matter, although, I feel the anti-abortion JB> side has gone way too far in many venues. The pro-choice side hasn't JB> done very well either, they always seem to try to downplay the fact that JB> this is an irreversible choice with a lifelong effect. I literally get JB> more JB> counselling if I want to have a tooth pulled, than my friend got when JB> she had her abortion. I know that both sides of this debate think that JB> any legislation that doesn't promote their views is wrong, but we need JB> to start thinking of this as the major surgery it is, and at least hold JB> doctors to the same standards of disclosure they are held to when they JB> do other surgery. And it does need to be legislated that there must JB> be some sort of protection to ensure that the woman is JB> not being pressured and is making her own choice. This is what I was trying to point out. There should be more disclosure. I got more counselling from the oral surgeon that removed my 4 impacted wisdom teeth than I got when I had that abortion! I was terrified! I had no idea what was happening to me! The most humiliating part was when they placed my legs in those stirrups and I watched the doctor wheel up between my legs on a chair just before I was overcome by the anesthetic. My dream images during the surgery were horrible nightmarish ones of being totally exposed like that before entire audiences! It was a long time before I could be intimate with anyone again, and when I finally was, I became more promiscuous than ever! I had 6 partners in less than 4 months before becoming pregnant with my eldest daughter. It's a wonder I never got AIDS, because this was in the early 80's when so little was known about it. I finally got tested just before my second marriage. When I had become pregnant the first time, I finally became monogamous with occasional periods of celibacy that have lasted as long as 2 1/2 years, and that's the way I have been ever since. Perhaps my daughter came along just in time to straighten me out, because if it weren't for her, I may never have changed my behaviour. That doctor made me feel cheap and worthless, and that was how I presented myself to the Wiccan community that I became involved in when I lived in Toronto. It makes me sick to see men like that practicing such an intimate specialty of medicine, and in the past few years I've known better than to tolerate it from any doctor. If they don't treat me like a human being, I move on to another who can give me the respect I deserve. BB -=Amethyst=- 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Aladrisa Area: Mundane To: Amethyst 30 Oct 94 14:19:46 Subject: Re: Abortion stuff in Metaphysical UpdReq Now I hate being a stick in the mud but here goes..... I have watched this discussion for sometime before getting involved and I have a few things to add... A> This is what I was trying to point out. There should be more disclosure. I A> got more counselling from the oral surgeon that removed my 4 impacted wisdom A> teeth than I got when I had that abortion! I was terrified! I had no idea A> what was happening to me! The most humiliating part was when they placed my A> legs in those stirrups and I watched the doctor wheel up between my legs on A> chair just before I was overcome by the anesthetic. My dream images during A> the surgery were horrible nightmarish ones of being totally exposed like tha A> before entire audiences! It is your right to ask more questions. I too have had an abortion, actually I had two..one for medical reasons, but anyways..... Not to be a bitch Amethyst but I cant buy what your saying. I went in there all naive the first time as well. I didnt know what was going on and I was only 17 and had two weeks to make a decision because I was 10 weeks pregnant when I found out and the local hospital didnt do them past 12 weeks. I was also a ward of the court and the decision was left totally up to me. No one would "tell me what to do". I was terrified and I was scared because back then abortion was a BAD word and you were a slut if you had one. I had to be careful who I told or where I went for help even. The people at Planned Parenthood told me very little (but of course now things have changed since this is the 90's) and I figured "since this is MY body and they are going to be performing surgery on it (more or less) then it makes total sense for me to check this out." I asked every question I could think of. Can you die? WHat are the risks? How EXACTLY is the procedure done? WHat can fail? Is there symptoms afterward? WHat happens to my baby, does it die during or after? WHat happens to me? They answered every question I had and the ones that I felt they didnt anser well enough I checked out myself at the library, with the hospital and after I had been "counselled" by them I asked to see someone at the hospital before hand to talk to them. I found out how some women react even 10 years later becuase they thought they made a bad choice. Basically I am pointing out that the info is out there, you just have to ask. Yeah, I know that in some cases it is hard to find..but you could always ask a question and not "let them touch you" until you got the answer. They told me about birth control for afterwards, how to take care of myself after etc etc. The younger you are the more they go out of their way to make sure that YOU know what is happening to you and what you are doing so that you dont freak out 10 years down the line and die of guilt for making a bad choice. A> It was a long time before I could be intimate with anyone again, and when I A> finally was, I became more promiscuous than ever! I had 6 partners in less A> than 4 months before becoming pregnant with my eldest daughter. It's a wond A> I never got AIDS, because this was in the early 80's when so little was know A> about it. I finally got tested just before my second marriage. When I had A> become pregnant the first time, I finally became monogamous with occasional A> periods of celibacy that have lasted as long as 2 1/2 years, and that's the A> way I have been ever since. Perhaps my daughter came along just in time to A> straighten me out, because if it weren't for her, I may never have changed m A> behaviour. That doctor made me feel cheap and worthless, and that was how I A> presented myself to the Wiccan community that I became involved in when I A> lived in Toronto. It makes me sick to see men like that practicing such an A> intimate specialty of medicine, and in the past few years I've known better A> than to tolerate it from any doctor. If they don't treat me like a human A> being, I move on to another who can give me the respect I deserve. I did not become more promiscuos. I became more careful because I knew that I had terminated a human life and that it was perhaps the MOST difficult decision a teen can make. For a long time I was pretty down on myself for even being stupid enough to let it happen. I think I was more "mis-informed" about the pill than I was the abortion. (Yes I am pro choice). As for the doctor making you sick, don't forget that he is being paid to do the surgery. He is not being paid to do the counselling unless you went to a clinic, then they have the counsellors there to do it. All he is under the impression of is that here is this lady, she has been told about whats going on, she has made her decision and he is doing the job. It sounds cold, but doctors are cold. I cant imagine being a doctor....I would get so involved in trying to cure my patients that I would go bonkers! I wonder if there are any Wiccan Doctors out there and if so how do they stay balanced. ANyways, I wont ramble. I just wanted to say that the more questions ones asks, the more answers they will get..and if they dont get them to their satisfaction..they go else where to get them. BB aladrisa 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718