From: Stardance Area: MagickNet To: Khephera 23 Sep 96 08:08:00 Subject: Re: Magick styles UpdReq **** Constellations exploded when Stardance heard **** Kh> On Sep 10 19:03 96, Stardance of 93:9301/0 wrote: Kh>> Plus, one who doesn't know how Magick works is stuck with the books. Kh>> If he ever finds himself without the book or needing something the Kh>> book doesn't cover- he's screwed. S> True. But what about those who simply bypass all of that??? Kh> Depends on what aspect you're talking about. If one bypasses those Kh> things that HAVE to be done for Magick to be Worked, then they will Kh> have no results at all. If, on the other hand, you are refering to Kh> someone who bypasses the specific techniques used in any Book, then Kh> they certainly can do this. Kh> Let me clarify a little: Kh> To perform a Spell, you HAVE to do certain things like: Focus on the Kh> Goal, Access the correct parts of the Mind, Raise Energy, Direct that Kh> Energy by the Will, etc. This is what I mean by content. The Kh> Grimiores cover these things (without openly explaining them)- each in Kh> thier own way. I'm saying that these things have to be covered, but Kh> you don't have to do it exactly like any one Grimore tells you to. Kh> Just so long as you do these things. But, you see, *I* can raise a lot of energy with very little effort...and if I can, I know others can, too. I don't have to go through a lengthy process to do so. I can hold out my hand, concentrate a bit, and have an energy ball sitting in the palm of my hand. What goal? What 'access'?? What will?? I want it, there it is. Only, I don't do it just for kicks, no, but others can, and can do a lot of mischief with it, and at the same time, can inadvertently raise something along with the energy if they're not real careful. That was the point I was trying to make. *I* know what I am doing, a lot of amateurs *don't*, and can get into a lot of trouble, and can CAUSE a lot of trouble, because of that. S> It might *not* work, and it shouldn't, but sometimes it WILL work, and S> usually with disastrous results. Kh> Well, I wouldn't say "usually" with disastrous results. There are Kh> some Grimiore purests out there who are successful in thier work. Kh> They are just worth very little when they don't have the books with Kh> them... Again, what books? I don't use them, and I am not limited to them. A lot of my knowledge is in my head. I am one of those people who can visualize very clearly, and if I concentrate, can link with others, and pass that visualization on to them. There are natural, untrained talents out there who do this without even realizing what they are doing, and whether you like to admit it or not, they *can* cause 'accidents', and not a book in sight, or even an inkling of what it is they are doing, but the results can be anything from relatively harmless, to almost disastrous. S> Content is *very* important, as well as *intent*.... Kh> Exactly. Amazing how many people fail to grasp that point. S> what I object to, as I have previously, is the attitude that one's state of S> dress has ANYTHING to do with the end results being S> sought. Kh> On this I do and do not agree. I understand where you are coming Kh> from, of course. Like I said: the mistake (and this is what I was Kh> trying to point out in my original message) is to think that you have Kh> to do EXACTLY word for word what a Grimiore tells you to do. The fact Kh> is, as long as those basic things (and others, of course) are covered, Kh> you can do it any way you want. Kh> So, to tell someone that (ie) "you HAVE to have this Wand, with these Kh> symbols on it, made this way, with these Words spoken over it, etc. Kh> for the Magick to work", then you are telling them a lie. So- Kh> apparently on this we agree. As long as the Magick User covers in his Kh> Spell whatever it was that that Wand was supposed to cover in it's own Kh> system. Kh> Where I do not agree is that the Tools- within a Tradition- can be Kh> VERY important. One who chooses Ceremonial Magick finds constant Kh> urges to Consecrate his Tools. Consecrating the Tools literally Kh> brings them to life- it awakens the Spirits within them, and then Kh> those Spirits take part in the Ceremony to a large degree. It's wrong Kh> to say that Tools, etc are a must for any Magick, and it is bad for a Kh> Wizard to become limited to them (like a child who can't do math Kh> because he has a calculator)- but to say that the Tools that some Kh> people use have *nothing* to do with their Magick is also wrong. Does Kh> that make sense? ;) I didn't say anything about Tools. I said 'state of dress or lack thereof'.....as in clothing, m'dear. I refuse to run around in some silly looking costume. Jeans and a t-shirt is perfectly fine....or sweats, for that matter. And I still do very effective work. I just can't stand people telling me I HAVE to dress a certain way or it won't work, or I won't be taken seriously. At least I look a lot less silly than some I could name. And it's a lot less distracting. S> Have someone feeling impatient with all the 'whys and wherefors' of S> things??? Kh> Not now- but I will. ;) You teach? S> Put it to them this way......would you try arc welding without a protective S> face mask and work apron/gloves on??? Nope. Why??? That'll get em every S> time. Kh> Good one! ;) Makes a good analogy. Protection while working is not only for the safety of the world around you, but for yourself as well. After all, if you get singed in the process, what good will that do??? Stardance ... "Most people just muddle through their lives." - Calvin 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Paul Hume Area: MagickNet To: Jade 23 Sep 96 17:49:00 Subject: Magic & the Operator UpdReq Jade - I only have a popular reader's knowledge of quantum effects - I agree, I think it is Bohr's postulate that noted that the observer affects the outcome of experiments at the quantum level. The problem I have with the use of quantum physics to "explain" magical phenomena is that the concensus among quantum physicists (again, at least as expressed in popular writings) is that these indeterminate quantum effects cancel each other out as you get a gross atomic/molecular level. Clarke's Third Law did not include a vice versa (g). "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." While there are several also very fine writers who have worked with the converse (Randall Garrett, Poul Anderson, Larry Niven, Robert Heinlein) most of them proceed from a scientific model, and while the distinction that the magician is a crucial part of the process is made (hmmm - almost forgot some ofthe later Sime/Gen novels of Lichtenberg and Lorrah) the rest of their modelling follows a scientific model. Not surprising, since they are all superb hard SF writers. Back to where this all started in fact: Toxic Spell Dump is a classic nuts-and-sorcery story, like Operation Chaos or Magic, Inc., where classical thaumaturgy - for one reason or another - is the basis of the technology dealt with in the novel. We've already noted how well Turtledove researched his material in adapting classical sorcery to his setting. Paul 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718