From: Frater M.'. O.'. M.'. Area: MagickNet To: Kai Mactane 9 Feb 95 05:31:12 Subject: Re: "secret" groups UpdReq -=> Quoting Kai Mactane to Frater M.'. O.'. M.'. <=- -> Ygr'th na Frater M.'. O.'. M.'. zwan Kai Mactane ngah'wlaq -> r'hylth "secret" groups, n'qah? K> Yeah, oaths like that have always bothered me, too. I mean, what K> if you get involved and decide you don't like the group? Since they're K> secret, you pretty much *have* to join to find out if you want to K> join, y'know? F> Not really. While I can't speak for Freemasonry, the OTO has an F> "evaluation" degree (Minerval), where one can join and a mutual F> evaluation can occur. KM> I did not know that. The O.T.O. isn't my style KM> (from what I can see), but that's encouraging to know. :) F> For that matter, what ever happened to independent investigation? F> Despite being "secret" societies, there's not much that's *really* F> secret about such organizations at this point, except perhaps signs, F> grips, and passwords that are changed on a regular basis. KM> True, but I feel that there's a truly crucial difference between KM> the way the group looks on paper and the way it acts in the flesh. The KM> library research wouldn't help much. In general, your other KM> suggestions make sense, though. Thank you for the input. KM> --Kai MacTane. Agreed to your "on paper" comment. Note, however, that there's more to research than just hitting the library and reading the latest Enquirer-style expose on what Freemasons are *really* up to. Consider, for example, that the board you're reading on (Arena of Anon) is home to several OTO members. (Quick disclaimer: I'm going to use OTO for the purpose of example, simply because a) I don't want to be so vague as to make no sense, and b) I have a bit more familiarity with them than, say, AMORC or the Freemasons.) Interact with them, see how they act/react. Chat with members of one or two of these groups on Usenet; you can find all kinds of strange cats on alt.magick, for example (which Arena of Anon gets). While still subject to the same general "on paper" ("on CRT?") argument, asking questions/hanging out netwise allows *interactive* exploration. I dunno--maybe I just tend to be more intuitive than you--and go by what information I can gather this way--or perhaps your criterion are simply different than mine. :) I'm simply of the opinion that the total weenie groups are usually pretty easy to pick out...the EGD comes irresistably to mind in this respect. :) Larry ... equal opportunity heretic. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: MagickNet To: Wored 10 Feb 95 11:42:00 Subject: Sabbat UpdReq Thus said Wored to Dave Mcclanahan concerning Sabbat: Wo> Sorry! Wo> Gotcha. One of the Webster relations is Sabbath as Saturday as the Wo> `day of rest' that is practiced by Christians and Jewish folks. Sorry, Wo> my mistake by using that correspondence. Actually, you aren't wrong, you just didn't go back far enough in your references. The Hebrew for "Saturn" is "Shabbatai", with exactly the same root as "sabbath". ... Why did kamikaze pilots wear helmets? --- Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 * Origin: Access! Information Services (93:9000/2) SEEN-BY: 102/943 107/946 108/155 666/119 1000/1 2000/11 9000/2 6 8 10 9001/0 SEEN-BY: 9005/0 9007/0 9008/0 9009/0 9010/0 9020/0 9030/0 9040/0 9060/0 SEEN-BY: 9070/0 9090/0 9100/0 9200/0 9300/0 9400/0 3 23 9410/0 9420/0 9430/0 SEEN-BY: 9500/0 9600/0 5 7 9601/0 9603/0 9605/0 9608/0 9609/0 9610/0 9620/0 SEEN-BY: 9630/0 9640/0 9650/0 9660/0 9697/0 9800/0 9900/0 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Volcane Area: MagickNet To: Wored 10 Feb 95 10:29:02 Subject: Chaotika UpdReq WO>Greetings! WO>I hpoe you got my last message to you. There's been some mix up in our WO>messages lately. Let me know if you got my post ( a rational and infomative WO>post. If the post looks wierd, it's not mine. Let me know. Wored, Sorry it's taken so long to respond to your post- was having some trouble on my end posting replies (thank Ye Mighty Sysop Gods that that's over!) Anyway, did you ever call Sri Palindrome's Temple Babel BBS "Meat for Breakfast?" Now that was a good board- chock full of useful txt files pertaining to Chaos Magick... good stuff. I caught the tail end of your post about the Cthulhu 'Pantheon' and the question of it's validity. I really think that people make to much out of the whole question.... It seems to me that every single Deified Force, or simply "God/dess" is fundamentally a human invention, so why is it that people are so eager to say - "But that's only fiction." I think that any relationship with the Divine is personal fiction, the question is simply, how real and how many benefits can one milk from this fictional relationship? (Dissenting opinions please feel free to jump in.) Is the Buddha real, Mercury, Tehuti, Cerridwen, etc. I disagree with the notion that the Gods are simply pyschic storehouse full of the primal energy that the followers inject into them. I think this notion is true on a personal level, but not a group level. In other words- if I don't believe in Jehovah then Jehova can have no effect in or on my life. But, that doesn't mean that someone who has an intimate connection with the Godform Jehovah can't affect my life. It's that Believers pyschic energy, whether that energy is connected to Jehova or Winnie the Pooh, that can manifest change regardless of it's affiliation. I honestly believe that the Cthulhu Pantheon has no true ancient or historic genesis other than Lovecraft's imagination, but I think that what Lovecraft did was to tap into a hidden universal human glyph of change and order that goes beyond Human comprehension- essentially Chaos. Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos have survived and flourished with such astonishing tenacity because (opinion) they represent that "hideous" unknown factor in ourselves and our environment. It has been a common occult practice to see the manifestation of Magickal force as "white divine light," or "electric blue" as in the LBRP and such, but doesn't it seem more likely that if a color and quality needs to be attached to Magickal force it should be a shadowy dark substance like Dark Matter, a color and thought that speaks of the hidden side of Humanity that can be empowered to wield occult (hidden and unseen) forces? Oh well, the question of color attribute to Magickal force is a personal paradigmn question anyway. I believe that Lovecraft's Avatars of Change, swift and possibly violent, are evolutionary forces much like the Tower card or the Death card of the Tarot, which are not "evil" but instead represent the death and destruction of routine patterns and a birth and awakening into the new. Now, at this point is the question of historical validity even pertinent to the Cthulhu Mythos....I think not. Rant over..... Ijaceebo, Volcane --- SLMR 2.1a Mouse driver not found. Spank the cat? Y/N 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718