From: Wored Area: MagickNet To: JOSEPH MAX 15 Dec 94 04:42:00 Subject: ASTROLOGY UpdReq JM> -=> Quoting Wored to Joseph Max <=- JM> Wo> Hello and a good day, JM> Wo> Astrology seems to be the most easily attacked (by Chaoyoates) JM> Wo> subject running around these days. What is this? Pope Pete must be JM> Wo> defended under all circumstances. Pete, himself is given to defining JM> Wo> his Magick by quabalistic interpretations. He is not the first JM> Wo> Chaoist, and certainly one of the least reliable. His colour Magick JM> Wo> is directly dependent on quabalistic symbology, his debates on Choas JM> Wo> vs. Traditional Magick are dependent on (half assed) science, other JM> Wo> Chaos magickal writers (Sherwin, Wilde, Bonowitz, and a host of JM> Wo> others), and mOST DEFINATELY, TRADITIONAL hypothesis'. Why the hell JM> Wo> don't people start looking outside Carrolls' work??? He uses JM> Wo> planetary symbology on a continious basis and then says astrology is JM> Wo> shit. When I keep reading all these `Pete Carroll' concepts being JM> Wo> defended by people whom he himself laughs at behind their back, I JM> Wo> have to wonder, `Have these people ever met or spoken to this jerk?' JM> Wo> He's making a load of money by Chaoists' support. AND HE IS LAUGHING! JM> Wo> For anyone who is an Expultant of the I.O.T. he is more than JM> Wo> laughing. I've spoken to him personally, and HE IS HOARDING YOUR JM> Wo> MONEY AND SUPPORT. Enjoy defending ALL of his BORROWED ideas'. JM> Wo> I'm not directing this towards the person I'm writing persay. I am JM> Wo> posting this so the Pete Carroll idealizers might get an idea of who JM> Wo> it is they are giving credence to. The Chaoyoates' of this world JM> Wo> don't adhere to ANY PERSON. Chaoyoates' are to independent for that JM> Wo> find of bullshit. JM> Whoa! Slow down, girlfriend. Try the decaffinated... JM> First of all, I don't usually make a career out of being an JM> apologist for JM> Pope Pete. Unlike Carroll, I am saying that there IS JM> something to astrology; JM> I'm disputing the _mechanism_ by which it works. Carroll JM> simply states it's JM> bullshit and leaves it at that. JM> And it doesn't matter who pronounces a particular concept. JM> It wouldn't JM> matter if Carroll were the worst facist pig since Hitler. JM> What matters is JM> the validity or applicability of the concept itself, JM> regardless of it's JM> source. Carroll has expounded much that I agree with, and JM> much I do not JM> agree with. I think he took a wrong turn with _Liber Kaos_, JM> personally. Most JM> likely the "Equations of Magic" a sheer bullshit. But _Liber JM> Null_ has a lot JM> to recommend it. Give the devil his due. JM> Every occult writer from the scribes of Egypt through JM> Crowley and beyond are JM> really doing nothing but restating the obvious in new JM> terminology. The basic JM> concepts of magick are really quite simple. But since strong JM> belief is a JM> prerequisite of effective magick, the restating must be made JM> as the social JM> fabric alters. It will continue to have to be restated 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Wored Area: MagickNet To: JOSEPH MAX 15 Dec 94 05:40:00 Subject: ASTROLOGY UpdReq Max, So sorry, as that little peice of rant, was not meant for you at all. I've read your posts and we have talked and I consider you a high grade Chaoyoate', first class. sorry if somehow that post got directed your direction. i've posted a little more on my oponions of `Pope Pete' since and the general message I'm trying to convey is that that "we don't need another hero". In walking around various BBS' I've found that Pete is becoming some sort of guru! I'm sorry but I don't agree that if Pete is the worst sort of `Factist' there is still something to be learned...'. You know Hitler, was an incredible occultist AND magickian. i've studied Hitlers' work in great detail, just to know what mistakes to avoid. now Pete, obviously, doesn't quite come under that catagory, but I'll be honest with you. I don't think he's all that much better in his ethical make-up. When I resigned from the I.O.T. (and later found that they'd expelled me and my Temple after telling my everything was fine with our resignation At that time I spoke to Pete (via tele) and told him some of our problems. The biggest problem of which, was Bobs' (Corvus') outrageous racism. I got into trouble with the U.s. Section head over the upcoming initiation of a young man that Corvus thought was, and I quote "A Spic". Since I don't give a f**k what anyones' race is I didn't understand if Corvus was just out of it or what. It turned out that corvus `was not out of it' at all. He has serious issues with non-white people. The young man in question was 1/2 french and 1/2 Spanish. He was also a 5th generation American and didn't even speak any other language than English. According to Corvus, Corvus had phone this young guys' house once (AND I QUOTE) "I couldn't even understand what the people were saying. I had to wait, while I listened to that spic jabber going on." UNQUOTE. I am `techniquely not white'. I am 1/4 S. Cheyenne,1/8 Cherokee,1/16 African, and that leaves me 7/16 white (European). I ma `tribal affiliated' with both the Tsalgi and the Tsistsistas people-Cherokee and Cheyenne, resepectively. As it turned out Corvus didn't like having a `white'looking squaw in their midst either. So I paid for a long distance call that lasted for a long time (WAY OVER $100 dollars) to talk to Pete about it. And you know what? Pete Carroll said, he didn't understand Bobs' attitude BUT as Bob (Corvus) was his friend ne didn't want to 'stir anything up". He said that if Corvus was racist maybe we should just accept that about `Corvus'. The S.O.B. actually said that it was the `NATURE' of Chaos to have to deal with Corvus' racism. (and Max let me tell you, BOB is a rather overt racist....oh, and he also hates "queers". (NOT MY WORDS) i'm sorry, i agree with you that Pete has given out SOME good info. but he is reminisant of the German people who said after WWII, "but we weren't Jewish so why should we have cared?". As a matter of fact Corvus' colours started showing after a Jewish person started attending my Temple. I don't give a sh*t about Corvus anymore, but Pete still weighs heavy om my mind as to his lack of humanity in dealing with the situation. I'm not just any old excommunicant, you understand. I was the FIRST I.O.T. upperdegree WITH Temple to be excommunicated and it was due to RACISM and SEXISM. AND good ol' Pope Pete agreed with the whole thing (due to the fact, according to PETE, that Corvus had always seemed like a good sort to him and "so what if e's a little racist". I don't know how to explain the depths of my feelings' on this issue. Pete has written some good stuff but (and I do feel I'm being as objective as possible) he is turnig into a guru. I generally couldn't care less who people wish to cow-tow to, but in this case we have a guru who is well known for his sexism, and in my case (and members of my Temple) showed class act 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Wored Area: MagickNet To: Wored 15 Dec 94 22:34:00 Subject: ASTROLOGY UpdReq This a cont. from last message. Sigh. I don't think Pete carroll is Hitler and Don't wish to be told that I said he was. All my last message was meant to convey is is pretty obvious. I don't like Pete Carroll for (MORE THAN OBVIOUS) personal reasons that have to do with racism adn sexism. i, too, think Libeer Null was a good peice of work. I am wondering why more people aren't discussing other authors and other peoples work that are `Chaosist Magickal texts. I've ranted on way to long as it is about Peter Carroll. Do you like Chaos Ritual by Steve Wilson? I just got done reading it and thought him very interesting. I enjoyed his veiw on `Shamanistic' approach to Chaos magick. I also liked the way he defined the word `Shaman', without assuming everyone defines the word `Shaman' the same way he does. He's got a really interesting working reference going in the book. (Besides it's practical application, and I really like reading practical application `Chaos Magick' texts these days). I'm outta here. "LIFE IN EXPANSION KNOWS NO RESTRICTIONS", cried the Wandering Wored. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: The Bouncer Area: MagickNet To: Wored 17 Dec 94 04:46:16 Subject: Life UpdReq W> "LIFE IN RESTRICTION KNOWS NO EXPANSION!", cried the wandering Wored. Life in Expansion knows no Restrictions :) 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: WORED Area: MagickNet To: Fr. Yud 13 Dec 94 06:38:48 Subject: Resh Times UpdReq Re: A source for Resh times? Actually I think that you'll find most of those little pocketbook astrological guides have the info. you want exept sundown. One calendar I know is VERY, VERY accurate about the times for sundown are calendars published for the Orthodox Jewish community. Due to the religious laws (Jewish) that time of day has to be PERFECTLY marked. Also there is a Jewish calendar that has perfect mid-day (supposed noon) and sunrise marked as well. Certain prayers can only be observed at those times, and believe me those calendars are extremely accurate (and most have English listed as well as the Hebrew). Hope that's some help. LIFE IN EXPANSION KNOWS NO RESTRICTIONS! cried the Wandering Wored 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: MagickNet To: Andy Bender 17 Dec 94 09:52:34 Subject: Re: A SOURCE FOR RESH TIMES? UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. > On a related note, what do you do when you do not have the privacy you > might prefer when the time for the adoration arrives? This is > supposed to be a rather loud and dramatic rite, hardly the sort of > thing you can do in public. What do you do? Loud and dramatic is good, but hardly necessary. I remember reading--in one of the old _Thelema Lodge_ newsletters maybe?--something written by H.A. about being with Crowley on a double-decker bus in London or something, and observing AC turn his head to one side, make a very subtle gesture with his hands, then resume the conversation they'd been engaged in. Upon inquiry, AC told Grady he'd been doing his Noon Adoration, of course! ;> If the Old Beast his own bad self, hardly a timid individual, saw the wisdom in subtlety and Silence at times, I'd hardly presume to disagree. ;> I often do Sunset Resh outside in the parking lot, because I like to *see* Tum in His Setting, in full godform, but using a silent 'loud voice.' IMHO, it's the heart put into it that 'counts,' not sweeping gestures, dramatic assumption of godforms, or hollering loud enough to be heard for blocks. Well, it works for me NEwayz! :> Love is the law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Helrunar Area: MagickNet To: Andy Bender 17 Dec 94 17:15:12 Subject: Re: A SOURCE FOR RESH TIMES? UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law! Sorry for buting in but I thought I'd throw you a couple of cents. > On a related note, what do you do when you do not have the privacy you > might prefer when the time for the adoration arrives? This is > supposed to be a rather loud and dramatic rite, hardly the sort of > thing you can do in public. What do you do? Try it in your head...scream,shout,bellow in your head facial and body expresions even come with the feeling you get when you try it. hehe You just gota subdue large body movements so as not to hurt any coworkers. ;) You might get a few wiered looks when someone is looking right at you, Your face contorting and not making a sound like you just stubed your toe. But hey, were all Magicians were suposed to be nuts anyway! Love is the law, love under will. Fr. Helrunar 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Limping_Bear Area: MagickNet To: Andy Bender 18 Dec 94 08:30:00 Subject: Re: Another Question UpdReq -=> Quoting Andy Bender to Fr. Yud <=- AB> In L.V.X. Are you familiar with the "Builders..."? Regards LB ... Does the name Pavlov ring a bell? ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Chuck Barnard Area: MagickNet To: Martin Krogh-Poulsen 12 Dec 94 21:20:00 Subject: Re: CHAOS UpdReq -=> Overheard Martin Krogh-poulsen to Joseph Max <=- CP>> topleft to bottomright), why couldn't a painting also be a spell or CP>> ritual? CP>> (Next question to myself: what makes you think this hasn't already CP>> been done?) All Navaho sandpaintings _are_ the spell, the dance and music and chanting are there to re-inforce it.... Chuck ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: MagickNet To: Rab 17 Dec 94 12:42:40 Subject: Re: Picture ritual UpdReq -=> Rab sent a message to Christeos Pir on 14 Dec 94 01:48:02 <=- -=> Re: Re: Picture ritual <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Ra> Sorry, I was unclear. I meant that if we realise that other cultures, [...] OIC... Yes, agreed. Ra> may even have been labyrinthine or maze-like, but still linear. Ra> Maze-lines, in fact, were often used to hide secret ritual formulae Ra> from the uninitiated. Hmm... like sigils. Now, after we do the Classics Illustrated version of the Greater Key, we'll put out a book of Word Finds which contain spells that are delineated when the words are circled in the proper order! Ra> It really doesn't matter whether or not it's been done before, Ra> (unless your looking for some historical threads). It's a good idea Ra> and worth exploring. It's on my list, which means I should get to it sometime before the next Aeon! Love is the law, love under will. - CP ... And the angels shall lay thy dust in the City of the Pyramids, 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Helrunar Area: MagickNet To: Rose Dawn 17 Dec 94 16:40:34 Subject: Re: PICTURE RITUALS UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law! You know what? Being in public dont bother me none! --,--'--{@ }:* > Those of us whose landlords would frown on our painting bitchin > murals on the walls of the spare bedroom could probably buy > king-sized sheets in elemental colors, fer-instance, and paint right > on the fabric. Or we could just risk eviction. ;> Hey Thats a great Idea! Airbrushing Looks Bitchin' on Sheets! heh I already have a yellow sheet with a Rune circle and Pent on it.;) Theres no easyer way to draw on sheets than hangin'em on the wall. > LOL. What kind of ritual *would* you create via painting, then? > Would wrapping and putting away the 'invocation' equate to a > 'license to depart' kinda thang? I spoze if the painting was done as > a ritual for a specific purpose, once the purpose had been > fulfilled, you could ritually burn the canvas, kinda like getting > rid of a talisman. I should probably bow out of the thread at this > point, cuz while I think it's a fascinating idea, I'm about as > artistic as a brick. :/ Be interested to see what you might come > up with though! ;> I dont think *I* would Burn A painting That I had worked hard on but theres gota be a way to *put the work to rest* with out being drastic...I think I might do something like paint BindRunes On a cloth and wrap it up. Hell if BindRunes can hold back My anahata chakra then theyd tame an En. Angel too. You beter not back out of this thread. I hapen to belive that you *Do* Infact have some Artistic Talent. Its just that your writing all the time has subdued your right brain. Trust me I know its there I can see it. One doesnt have to know how to draw,paint,sing,dance,or even juggle to be artistically inclined.;) Love is the law, love under will. Fr. Helrunar };) 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Thomas Izaguirre Area: MagickNet To: Wored 12 Dec 94 18:04:00 Subject: Sigil Art and A.O. Spare UpdReq W> Re: Chaos W> FACT: Not all of Spares work by any means was done W> for Magickal purposes. W> There are some out of print books about Spare that W> quote him as saying the W> above. One, due to extreme poverty, there were times W> when he just went out W> and sketch peoples portraits wITHOUT any desire to Sigilize the W> picture/portrait. He wasn't to pleased about ever W> having to reduce his Art to W> the mundane level, but the fact is that he had to W> resort to mundanian Art The Rare Books Department at the Memorial Union Library at the University of Wisconsin-Madison has in its collection some of Osman-Spare's mundane artwork in large folios. Some of it is fantastical, but most of it is advertising signage, story illustrations, even a few political cartoons. Still, it does carry the very strong visual flavor Osman-Spare put into his work. Mundanely, I had the good fortune to meet (at a naturist party) a young woman who was a spitting image of Spare's "Isis Unveiled" and who flirted quite sweetly with me. It makes the image all the more powerful whenever I see it reproduced in some occult lexicon. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718