From: JOSEPH MAX Area: MagickNet To: WORED 13 Dec 94 11:44:00 Subject: RE: ASTROLOGY UpdReq -=> Quoting Wored to Joseph Max <=- Wo> Hello and a good day, Wo> Astrology seems to be the most easily attacked (by Chaoyoates) Wo> subject running around these days. What is this? Pope Pete must be Wo> defended under all circumstances. Pete, himself is given to defining Wo> his Magick by quabalistic interpretations. He is not the first Wo> Chaoist, and certainly one of the least reliable. His colour Magick Wo> is directly dependent on quabalistic symbology, his debates on Choas Wo> vs. Traditional Magick are dependent on (half assed) science, other Wo> Chaos magickal writers (Sherwin, Wilde, Bonowitz, and a host of Wo> others), and mOST DEFINATELY, TRADITIONAL hypothesis'. Why the hell Wo> don't people start looking outside Carrolls' work??? He uses Wo> planetary symbology on a continious basis and then says astrology is Wo> shit. When I keep reading all these `Pete Carroll' concepts being Wo> defended by people whom he himself laughs at behind their back, I Wo> have to wonder, `Have these people ever met or spoken to this jerk?' Wo> He's making a load of money by Chaoists' support. AND HE IS LAUGHING! Wo> For anyone who is an Expultant of the I.O.T. he is more than Wo> laughing. I've spoken to him personally, and HE IS HOARDING YOUR Wo> MONEY AND SUPPORT. Enjoy defending ALL of his BORROWED ideas'. Wo> I'm not directing this towards the person I'm writing persay. I am Wo> posting this so the Pete Carroll idealizers might get an idea of who Wo> it is they are giving credence to. The Chaoyoates' of this world Wo> don't adhere to ANY PERSON. Chaoyoates' are to independent for that Wo> find of bullshit. Whoa! Slow down, girlfriend. Try the decaffinated... First of all, I don't usually make a career out of being an apologist for Pope Pete. Unlike Carroll, I am saying that there IS something to astrology; I'm disputing the _mechanism_ by which it works. Carroll simply states it's bullshit and leaves it at that. And it doesn't matter who pronounces a particular concept. It wouldn't matter if Carroll were the worst facist pig since Hitler. What matters is the validity or applicability of the concept itself, regardless of it's source. Carroll has expounded much that I agree with, and much I do not agree with. I think he took a wrong turn with _Liber Kaos_, personally. Most likely the "Equations of Magic" a sheer bullshit. But _Liber Null_ has a lot to recommend it. Give the devil his due. Every occult writer from the scribes of Egypt through Crowley and beyond are really doing nothing but restating the obvious in new terminology. The basic concepts of magick are really quite simple. But since strong belief is a prerequisite of effective magick, the restating must be made as the social fabric alters. It will continue to have to be restated forever. So Carroll is doing nothing that every other occult hasn't done before him, and will do after him. As far as making a "load of money" goes, how do you define a "load"? I know a few moderately successful authors personally. Diana Paxson makes barely enough to pay her mortgage and drives an old Volvo, and I'm quite sure she outsells Carroll by a wide margin. Now, Danielle Steel makes a "load" of money as an author - Pete's just a piker by comparison. Let's keep things in perspective. I understand your exasperation, being an ex-con IOTer and all. Remember what great company you're in... - J:.M:.555 ... Hmph! Seriousness. Hmph! Sobriety. A Jedi craves them not... ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: JOSEPH MAX Area: MagickNet To: GAIA 13 Dec 94 11:44:00 Subject: Re: MY SON, THE MAGE UpdReq -=> Quoting Gaia to All <=- Ga> To paraphrase Mithrandir, Say Hello, Strohm. Ga> STROHM SAYS: Ga> Hello everyone. A little about myself- My mother describes me as a Ga> Shamanic Sorcerer. Common usage English probably doesn't get any Ga> closer, but Really what I am is "Me-ian". Most of what I do and think Ga> came from me, only the seeds came from books and teachers and Ga> established religions/philosophies.... Ga> ... I am not sure that I could really define myself as Wiccan or Ga> Pagan because my experience of both has been that the symbols Ga> overshadow the reality, the reality gets lost, and nothing really Ga> happens, or what does happen is out of phase with itself... Uh, oh. The kid sounds like a budding Chaos Magician to me, Gaia. Meta-belief, shadow reality, malleable symbology, and most importantly, stubborn individuality - it's all there. Get him a copy of _Liber Null_ and look out... (Psst! Strohm: _Liber Null & Psychonaut_ by Peter J. Carroll {Samuel Wieser Inc. -1987} ISBN Number 0-87728-639-6 ...check it out...) ... Reality crept in and I nailed it for trespassing! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Andy Bender Area: MagickNet To: Fr. Yud 15 Dec 94 08:08:02 Subject: A Source For Resh Times? UpdReq Greets, FY> I am looking for a source that would list, on a daily basis the times FY> the Liber Resh adorations. The times I need would be Sun rise, Noon, Sun FY> Midnight, and Moon rise. On a related note, what do you do when you do not have the privacy you might prefer when the time for the adoration arrives? This is supposed to be a rather loud and dramatic rite, hardly the sort of thing you can do in public. What do you do? In L.V.X. ___ X RM 1.3 01655 X Let the meek inherit the Earth; it's the stars I'm after! 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Helrunar Area: MagickNet To: Rose Dawn 15 Dec 94 10:26:32 Subject: Re: PICTURE RITUALS Rec'd UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law! I need to make a trip to aron brothers art mart and pick up several hundred dollars worth of painting supplies if we keep up this Thred. ;) > That might give a sort of added 'aura' to the room/Temple, I'd > guess, but I wouldn't think it would take the place of a banishing > ritual. Kind of like frequent practicing of banishings builds up an > 'aura' around the individual magician, but doesn't replace the > ceremony itself. Ya we wouldent want to stop banishing thats for shure. Just emagin how strong your banishings would become after your subject to the added efect of the pictures. And The pictures are afected by your constantly banishing too. You could really build up a piecfull environment charging the very walls of a temple that way. > I'm wondering about a painting-on-canvas though--interesting > idea--if you kept it wrapped and put away with your altar tools, > then brought it out and placed it on the altar and looked at > it...'entered into it' even...before an invocation. Hmmm...maybe > before commencing work on a painting that is itself an invocation? Hmmm do you think what your invoking would like being trapped in a painting though? I hadent thought of that till just now. if your invocation was related to the eliment fire at all it could be dangerous even. =:o You know how flamable painting supplys can be! hehehe > Too late! Drawing yantras and glyphs on the partner's body is an > Olde Tantricke Traditionne before ritual lovemaking. ;> Melted > chocolate makes an ace substitute for the more traditional cow dung > for us western folx, IMHO. Hehehe. Chocolate! I love chocolate! Love is the law, love under will. Fr. Helrunar 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718