From: Rab Area: MagickNet To: Joseph Max 1 Dec 94 20:58:00 Subject: Re: Astrology UpdReq -=> Quoting Joseph Max to Rab <=- JM> There is much we don't yet understand, of course. Plenty of people JM> have been investigating the "physical" factors, but understanding of JM> any physical force model relating to astrology has been elusive. You're obviously coming from a very different place. I don't think physical factors have been investigated much at all. In fact, it's really a whole new frontier as far as astrology is concerned. Name three scientists who've been actively looking for physical causes. JM> This is why I perfer to poke around with other possibilities. Understandable. But some would not think that these are any less elusive. Nevertheless, good luck. JM> I can see a possible corrolation between say, tidal effects and animal JM> behavior, or perhaps solar flare activity. However, these are _not_ JM> what astrologers use to create charts and analysis. Very true. But I wonder how much longer before such factors do become part of astrological study & interpretation. JM> We must stick with what _is_ taken into account - JM> the various relative locations of the planets at the time of birth - Yes, that's one approach, and you describe another: JM> it's _all_ part of a JM> greater synchronistic pattern that has nothing to do with gravity or JM> anything else scientifically measurable. However, there's another approach which involves analyses of measurable astrophysical factors -- cosmic & solar radiations, electromag & gravity fields, various celestial & galactic orbits & cycles -- plus geophysical influences; and all their various effects on human life & experience. This is a very rich field to explore, and work in this area has barely begin. Admittedly, this is an approach that so far seems hardly relevant to traditional astrology, but the further along we get with it, the closer will be the connections. There will be a convergence. I see science and astrology both being transformed as a result. JM> ... astrology is the epitome of consistancy, so I JM> don't think you can properly invoke Chaos Theory to be the loophole JM> that allows for astrology. Certainly not *The* loop-hole. I was just thinking of rare & subtle factors that can become major & obvious. But better to leave chaos out of this for the moment. Ra> I understand your a-causal perspective. But fail to see why you don't Ra> think there is human response to the cyclic cosmic influences in Ra> which we are immersed. Do your really believe that the relationship Ra> with our cosmic environment is almost totally coincidental? This Ra> sounds very out of touch. JM> I wouldn't call it "coincedental", as in "accidental". In fact, I JM> think every event in the universe is the result of a greater "pattern". Gee whiz, that's quite an accident! I think you're right, however. But that's only a part of the plan. One side of the coin (or pentacle). The other side is thoroughly causal and infinitely intricate. Spin it & you can see both sides at once. But to spend it, maybe only one side can be up. At any particular time. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rab Area: MagickNet To: Kai Mactane 1 Dec 94 21:02:02 Subject: Re: chaos UpdReq -=> Quoting Kai Mactane to Rab <=- Ra> The old shamanism permeates some sects of the Orthodox Church (e.g. Ra> the Starets, if I've got the spelling anywhere near right). KM> Assuming you can't send in Cyrillic over PODSnet, that's fine. KM> The actual speling, of course, would be letters pronounced ess, teh, KM> ah, err, yeh, tse, and the closest I can come to representing their KM> form in low-bit ASCII (since my BBS strips high characters KM> on the way out to prevent "keyboard bombs") is: C T A P E U, KM> The U, is supposed to be one letter -- I think you'd KM> recognize it if you saw it now. KM> I'm done nitpicking now. :) I thank you, profusely. Maybe Rasputin would too. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rab Area: MagickNet To: Rose Dawn 1 Dec 94 23:42:04 Subject: Re: Karma UpdReq -=> Quoting Rose Dawn to Rab <=- R> On the contrary, results & intentions are an integral part of karmic R> law. Intention, in fact is the most important shaper of results. (Karma= R> action; karma vipaka=results of previous actions). Good R> intention inclines to good result, & bad intention inclines to bad result. RD> Sounds like, rather than looking through various sacred texts trying RD> to find various definitions of 'karma' before the concept was RD> enlarged upon and given qualities it didn't originally RD> possess, you accept it as having intrinsic values and RD> existing as an actual force or law. I don't. Hmm. Background: Well, you're right about my ignoring (or not having read) many early textual definitions of karma. My comments were influenced mainly by studies of one literary source, the Abhidhamma, although I wasn't trying very hard to represent it's philosophy accurately, nor in any detail. I agree that the way karma manifests can, from an "objective" viewpoint, seem impersonal or impartial, but from a personal or subjective perspective it can be judged as good, bad, or neutral -- according to whether it helps or hinders the accomplishment of one's (or any other's) desires or aspirations. As long as one has a goal to attain, therefore, evaluating karma can be very useful. One needs to know what works well, and what doesn't. In a state of transcendance, of course, the nature of evaluation and the view of karma has become radically different. Also, I don't view karma as being a force or law, but as what happens ... and what happens, through forces, is governed by laws. R> Of course it is. Why do you think it isn't? In any case a sociopath is R> often MORE subject to the results of his or her actions, not less than R> a more balanced individual is. RD> Because I think it has to do more with molding swadharma than RD> 'reaping' karma. If a sociopath lacks the emotional and psychological RD> tweak-factors I was talking about, how would they come RD> into play? Kukarma often 'results' in 'positive' RD> reactions; sukarma in 'suffering.' I don't believe in the RD> objective existence of sanchita karma or praradbha karma; RD> and I think kriyamana karma is entirely psychological in RD> its cause *and* its effects. And hmmm. Really, I think if we substituted "sometimes" for "often", and perhaps "often" for "more", in certain of our statements, we could agree. There are all sorts of qualifiers that shape the outworkings of karma. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rab Area: MagickNet To: Kai Mactane 1 Dec 94 23:54:06 Subject: Re: Quality UpdReq -=> Quoting Kai Mactane to Rab <=- Ra> I don't think you'd want to "measure" quality, but you might want to Ra> evaluate it, or discern whether or not it was lacking. Ra> Surely the quality can be judged by the kind of attention or Ra> mindstate that is brought to the object in question? By what changes Ra> occur, and the end result? The result may the most important thing. Ra> If an act of worship, involving any object, has a good result, then Ra> you can say the quality good. If not, then not. KM> The problem with this is that it basically defines KM> "quality" as equivalent to "effectiveness." This makes KM> perfect sense for any applied motive, but isn't very useful KM> as far as a theoretical background is concerned. KM> [The] one [result] you didn't expect. Those results often open up KM> entirely new areas to explore. But with quality defined solely in KM> terms of effectiveness, we close ourselves off to those potential KM> results. Yeah. But think of the highest "quality", which is the kind that ensures the best kind of "effectiveness" ... which is, in effect, an open door to the very sort of discoveries you want. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rab Area: MagickNet To: Christeos Pir 1 Dec 94 01:46:04 Subject: Re: Picture ritual UpdReq -=> Quoting Christeos Pir to Rose Dawn <=- CP> Think about calligraphy; or better yet of how a great painting CP> 'works': in my view, by a sort of communication that for lack of a CP> better term I'll call 'right-brain.' The elements of the picture might CP> be placed there purposefully, in a definite and deliberate flow, meant CP> to convey -not a message on the human condition, battle between Jahweh CP> and Satan, or relativity and time- but a magical ritual or spell, set CP> down step by step, just as it would be performed. Almost like CP> hieroglyphic or pictographic writing, but in a work of art, not just a CP> rebus. Seems like an obvious kind of thing to do. If we don't get stuck in thinking that it should be a linear flow, eg left to right, we should be able to remember examples in history of such "pictures". Renaissance tarot cards & paintings, come to mind. They were used in meditations, maybe ritual. Or how about Tibetan thankas? They are often used as mnemonic devices in ritual practice. Not linearly, but according to a set process of imaginal development. Space > Lotus > Symbol or Letter > then the figure or deity > within a surround ... and each object depicted represents a mantra or invocation. All are utilised to build up a specific complex of energies. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rab Area: MagickNet To: Samuel Wagar 1 Dec 94 01:59:06 Subject: Re: Wideranging Myths UpdReq -=> Quoting Samuel Wagar to Rab <=- RA> first began scouring the Yukon in the 60s, he got a geologist's reading RA> of about 200,000y for one find. But he scrapped his report on that in a RA> hurry. Much too far out. 8-] SW> There's been some recent work here in BC around the possibility SW> that a main glacial migration route was along the now seabed. The SW> ocean was shallower then and a wide strip of land exposed. So some SW> excavations have been done around islands in Georgia Straight. I'll SW> have to look for the reference. Yes, I've heard of some work in that general area. One of the anthropologists at Yukon College has been doing some underwater archaeology, on Vancouver Island I thought. Fladmark did some thinking about the Queen Charlottes and northern Van. Is. as ice-age refugia. He figures that there were quite a number of places along the coast that remained ice-free, and could have been used as stepping stones for travellers even at the height of the last ice-age. And then, as you say, the whole coast-line was extended, it's present contours reached only about 5000 y ago, after gradual inundation as the world sea-level rose. I recall a few now underwater settlements being discovered up towards Prince Rupert, oldest was about 11,000 y old. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Andy Bender Area: MagickNet To: Joseph Max 1 Dec 94 08:35:02 Subject: Astrology UpdReq [Joseph Max said to RAB]: JM> astrology. We must stick with what _is_ taken into account - the various JM> relative locations of the planets at the time of birth - and look for th JM> energy that causes the influence from _them_. I just can't accept it as JM> easily as accepting that it's _all_ part of a greater synchronistic pattern JM> that has nothing to do with gravity or anything else scientifically JM> measurable. I know little about astrology, but I wonder if we really must find a scientifically measurable force (gravity or otherwise) that affects a child at birth in order to accept an influence of the planets on that child. How often in ritual do we invoke the (non-scientifically measurable) forces of planets into our beings in order to achieve certain results? There might be a similar effect on babies, yes? In L.V.X. ___ X RM 1.3 01655 X Hastur! Hastur! See, nothing happe$%@!).#^NO CARRIER 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Suibhne Astraigh Area: MagickNet To: Josh Norton 1 Dec 94 07:48:10 Subject: Tolkien UpdReq Five tons of flax? Suibhne 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718