From: Rose Dawn Area: MagickNet To: Chris Stoudt 20 Nov 94 10:21:50 Subject: Re: CHAOS UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. > White of course! Back in high school I had my chances to go dark but it > really isn't in my nature. I only recently have started to get into > magick and my spirituality. Sorta hard to have anything when u have been > living with parents/grandparents! :) But now I am alone and able to Hmmm.... 'white magick' isn't really all that descriptive. Do you follow some kind of Neo-Pagan tradition, or are you still trying to put together a set of beliefs/practices? > my life! Back in high school I had dealings with an entity called > Astarte, Asteroff, or Ashtoreth, so I am getting into conjuration > because I want to bring her back into my life. Or at least reaffirm the > experiences that happened in high school... my skeptical mind is working > its way back! I don't think a skeptical mind is a negative thing...much the opposite actually. Stands me in good stead personally, many times! ;> Love is the Law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: MagickNet To: Kai Mactane 20 Nov 94 17:45:50 Subject: Re: CHAOS UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. > I believe Kahless (pronounced KAY-less, as in "showing a > distinct lack of K") was more-or-less a Genghis Khan-ish sort of > guy, who united a horde of warring factions into a unified Klingon > Empire. > However, though he is treated with great reverence by Klingons, > I *think* that his life is historically attested, and he's not > subject to any deification (unlike, say, this Galilean weirdo...) You're not kidding are you...the 'Klingon Wicca' thread you referred to was actually *serious convo*?? Hmmm...I think it'd surely be possible to have a religion without 'traditional' god figures...Buddhism in its myriad forms seems to be flourishing quite nicely. ;> And I seem to recall the Klingon dudes attempting a vision-quest-kinda-thang, complete with visions of the K-less One and personal messages, etc. Who's the 'Galilean weirdo'? > From what I've seen, it would be too sparse. However, it does > have the advantage over Vulcan of having a complete language system. So I've heard! Do you have one of those handy-dandy Klingon dictionaries? How d'you say "There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt" in Klingon? };] > I'm not on that echo anyway, so that'll be easy. :) I think > you'd need Klingon anatomy to do Klingon sex magick, tho'... I > recall Worf calling human women "too fragile" at one point. (!) Heh. He hadn't met *me* when he said that! }:D Gee, this is a weird conversation. Love is the law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Chris Stoudt Area: MagickNet To: Rose Dawn 21 Nov 94 19:39:00 Subject: Re: CHAOS UpdReq Rose Dawn BABBLED this. . . . RD>Hmmm.... 'white magick' isn't really all that descriptive. Do you RD>follow some kind of Neo-Pagan tradition, or are you still trying RD>to put together a set of beliefs/practices? I guess I lean towards good stuff... I am really still putting my beliefs etc together... I cant follow one road... I sorta have a mixed system.. a little from each! hehe understand? :) I haven't put MUCH thought into what i believe and don't... I just sorta let it come when it comes and experiences require me to decide... RD>I don't think a skeptical mind is a negative thing...much RD>the opposite actually. Stands me in good stead personally, RD>many times! ;> a skeptical mind is good, but I am starting to doubt the whole spirit/ghost/magic thing... I need something to let me know its real for ME! hehe ...SF... ... Internet Pizza Order: Supreme.Noanchovies@Dominoes.Org l8r... ...Shadow Fax... ___ X CMPQwk #1.4X UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Silverwing Area: MagickNet To: All 20 Nov 94 16:00:16 Subject: Last one out, please turn out the lights...UpdReq Well, here we go. My board is going down as of tomorrow, so this will be the last time I post for a while. Once I get settled in the United Kingdom and get myself a new computer system, I will begin posting again, but that probably won't be until March to May of next year. Take care, and I'll join with you all again in a few months! Any responses to this will, unfortunately, go unanswered by me as I don't have any way of replying (so here's your chance to talk behind my back ). May the blessings of Luuna shine upon you, now and always... lvwg SysOp of The Circle of Luuna (Mountain Serenity) Denver, Colorado USA VirtualNet @1303024 PODSnet @93:9903/2 ** Origin: The Circle of Luuna, Denver, Colorado USA @93:9903/2 ** "Walk always within Her light..." Reply is: Not Needed. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ...Dyslexics of the world, UNTIE! 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Gaia Area: MagickNet To: Rab 22 Nov 94 02:28:00 Subject: Re: Wideranging Myths UpdReq and Rab@93:9630/0.0 dicoursed upon Re: Wideranging Myths R > The only border they've ever been concerned about is the US/Soviet R > one, which was closed until a few years ago. Since then, families R >who have been separated for generations have been allowed to visit. R >The other border, US/Canada, hasn't posed much of a problem because R >between Alaska and the Cdn. Arctic there's an unsettled gap, R >separating the two main Inuit branches. (There are no Yukon R >Eskimos). The lack of First Nations folks in the Yukon must be a recent phenomna as a friend of mine excavated perhistoric sites there. R > By "Siberian" I mean the central and north Asian shamanist complex, R >which is ancient (and Asian) enough. But of course some myths could indeed go R >back further. R > Th> How old is binary oposition and who is responsible? R > R > It's as old as time, (probably) I'm sure, but "what" rather than "who" might be R >a more viable enquiry. (Explain, its early) R > R > R> One anthropologist has been working on a theory that among R > R> Athapaskans there are traces of refugees who fled Genghis Khan R >in the 12th C. R > Th> Who is this? R > R > Ethel (Somebody) from Ottawa. I keep forgetting her surname. Perhaps R > Campbell. I'll have to look it up ... Get me references. I occasionally work with 15-16 c. Navajo (Athapaskan) archaeology around here. R > The main thing to recognize is that people have been moving back and R >forth between Old & New Worlds via Beringia, and intermingling, for R >tens of thousands of years. Yeppers. the third main American group, R > the "AmerIndians", making up the rest of population, seem to have R >been here much longer, (We've got 20,000 year old dates from a cave in southern NM) and probably contain elements of several no R >longer distinguishable, more ancient populations. Also true. R > Both diffusion AND universal archetypes undoubtedly play major roles R >in the development of myths, along with convergence. I agree with you, especally the last part if a goood act swings... Gaia written 11/20/94 08:42 --- CmpQwk #UNREG UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: JOSEPH MAX Area: MagickNet To: RAB 19 Nov 94 09:33:00 Subject: Re: ASTROLOGY UpdReq -=> Quoting Rab to Joseph Max <=- -=> Quoting Joseph Max to Josh Norton <=- JM> I'm very ambivilent about astrology. There is nothing in my theories JM> that allow for it to actually be magickal in nature. Again, the energy JM> metaphor fails: the gravitational effect exerted by the body of the JM> mother and anyone else in the room on a child's body when it is born JM> far exceeds the gravitational influence of even the sun and moon on the JM> newborn child, due to the "inverse cube" nature of gravitational JM> force-vs-distance. Ra> Gravity may be just one factor among many, but it is evident that Ra> solar & lunar gravities do exert considerable influence on the Ra> biosphere as a whole, affecting weather & tides for example. Ra> Individual entities are subject to very weak, direct effects, but Ra> insofar as they are members of a domain which IS significantly Ra> affected, they participate in the overall dynamic. But, more to the Ra> point, a weak influence is not necessarily insignificant. (E.g. Ra> Chaos theory and the "butterfly effect"). Don't get me wrong here - your not dealing with a materialistic skeptic! What I'm trying to point out is that there may well be other actions at work besides the mundane physical ones like gravity and electromagnetism. And if I wanted to quibble, I could point of that tidal effects are not gravitational per se, but centrifical -- otherwise we would not have equal tides on both the near and far sides of the earth as related to the moon and sun's positions. And the "butterfly effect" is something that is an exception, not a rule. Things like the jet stream and the ocean currents play a far greater role than any one butterfly. The whole point of chaotic functions is that they are _chaotic_ and hard to predict. They don't happen consistantly, or we'd see as many hurricanes as there are butterflies! Conversely, astrology is the epitome of consistancy, so I don't think you can properly invoke Chaos Theory to be the loophole that allows for astrology. JM> Same for the magnetic fields of the planets - JM> earth's magnetic field itself is unusually strong for a planet and is JM> many millions of times more powerful than any such effects exerted by JM> distant astronomical bodies. Ra> Again, the whole system of the solar system has to be considered, and Ra> all the interacting fields of sun, moon, & planets. Some effects are Ra> quite subtle, but the most obvious involve the sun/earth/moon Ra> dynamic. For example, the moon acts as a distributor of solar Ra> radiation, alternately blocking and releasing build-ups in the Ra> Earth's magnetosphere every month. Days of blockage & release Ra> correspond (as in Eastern calendars) with days when feminine & Ra> masculine energies can be accessed most effectively. Remember, I'm not saying that such things like days when feminine or masculine energies can be accessed aren't actually there and predictable. What I'm saying is that the planets aren't _doing_ anything to _cause_ this to occur. Let's use this analogy: say that I live near a train track. Every day I notice that when my clock reads 3:15 PM, a train goes by my house. Am I to infer from this that the hands of my clock are causing the train to run? Of course not! Both events are cyclic in nature, and happen to co-incide, so therefore I can read my clock and make accurate predictions as to when the next train will pass by. By the same token, feminine influences are stronger when the moon is full, but this does not mean that the fullness of the moon is _causing_ the feminine "current" to fluccuate, it merely means that both are cyclic in nature and happen to co-incide, just like the clock and the train. I happen to think that there _is_ indeed a "greater pattern" at work, and this greater pattern is what "influences" _both_ the feminine current AND the manifestation of the full moon. But one is not caused by the other, they are _both_ caused by this greater pattern - IOW, "as above, so below", not "as above, THEN below"! JM> Similarly, the Zodiacal and Planetary symbologies are useful JM> archtypical metaphors for the actions of the human psyche. This is JM> astrology's greatest use, as I see it. Ra> Symbolic function is another. Same thing... ... "Another casualty of applied metaphysics." * Hobbes ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Wored Area: MagickNet To: All 19 Nov 94 23:52:00 Subject: Chaos Encore UpdReq Excerpt from Ray Sherwins ~The Theatre of Magick~. ENCORE A) Anything which is not egocentric is dead. B) Anything which can be perceived is real. C) Something which cannot be perceived is not necessarily unreal. D) Try everything at least twice. This instruction precludes such activities as suicide which can only be committed once. Suicide attepts are, of course permitted. E) Ignore all left and right signs. They serve only to confuse, since stage right is audience left and vice-versa. F) Lay as many ghosts as possible. G) Never expose your pantacles. H) Will is unity of desire. I) when visiting the local coven be sure to take a shilling for the meter. J) Magick is the violation of probability. LIFE IN EXPANSION KNOWS NO RESTRICTIONS! (I'm chanting as we speak.) WORED 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Samuel Wagar Area: MagickNet To: Rainlake 21 Nov 94 15:53:00 Subject: Seeking Info... UpdReq RA>You may be sick of the question, but may I ask if you're the Samuel RA>Wagar who ran for the Canadian Parliament? And if so, can you pop over RA>onto Burning Times and give us an update one day? No one seems sure RA>what happened after the original fracas. Yes. I was nominated to run in a provincial by-election early this year for the democratic socialist New Democratic Party, which governs this province. I'd been an active member of the NDP for six years, serving on the governing councils of several constituency associations of the Party. I've also been a Witch for twelve years, virtually always public and frequently as a spokesperson for Pagans for Peace or some other religious grouping. Basically, I was stripped of my nomination after the Premier of this province, head of my Party, and another high-ranking official in the Party made remarks publicly about my religious affiliation being grounds for reconsidering me. I was required to undergo a re-nomination battle which I lost, 14 votes to 16. After asking for an apology privately within the Party and recieving no reply and consulting with other leaders of the Pagan communities in BC I launched a Human Rights complaint against the NDP. The Human Rights Council of British Columbia has agreed that there's enough substance to my case and that it falls under their jurisdiction so they can proceed (the first and highest hurdle). And now lawyer to lawyer negotiations are underway - thus far the NDP offers have not been adequate although my minimum requirements remain a full and public apology to me and to my co-religionists and a commitment to making sure it doesn't happen again. If this second, negotiation, stage does not produce a just result a public hearing will occur. Probably in the spring sometime, a bit more than a year after the complaint. Complicating matters is the fact that next year is likely to be an election year in the province and the government party will not wish to have yet another scandal, in particular one that has caused a great deal of dissention (some of which has appeared in my mailbox) inside the Party itself. I believe I'll win. Any monetary award will go directly into Pagan projects in the province of BC - I see this as an extention of my Priestly work and thus the money is the Goddess'. blessed be Samuel Wagar POB 2205, Clearbrook, BC V2T 3X8 CANADA. * SLMR 2.0 * nudity is not lewdity 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Samuel Wagar Area: MagickNet To: Josh Norton 20 Nov 94 21:17:00 Subject: Chaos UpdReq JN>R> And as far as non-Slavic Russian myth goes, there's the original Siberia JN>R> shamanism, some of which has found its way into AmerIndian traditions, JN>R> most noticeably in the far northwest. (Some would say ALL New World JN>R> aboriginal traditions derive from Siberia). So perhaps to some extent JN>R> anyone who works with AmerIndian myth is also dealing with Russian. JN>R> At least some deep links do exist. And the really interesting things that Carlo Ginzburg has to say in his book "ECSTACIES - decyphering the Witches' Sabbat" (Pantheon 1991) about Siberian-European shamanic links into the period of the Burnings. He documents very shamanic things in Greece, Bulgaria, and into Northern Italy as well as the Baltic areas and spotty occurences through much of Europe. Fascinating reading. * SLMR 2.0 * practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rab Area: MagickNet To: All 20 Nov 94 02:12:00 Subject: gematria UpdReq -=> Quoting Rose Dawn to Helrunar <=- HE> Love is the law (Law = Legis = Lamed-Gimel-Samekh = 93), HE> love under will (Will = Vav-Yod-Lamed-Lamed = 73 = Chokhmah) HE> If Will=73 then why do we always say 93 93/93 ? RD> Well, first off, CP was translating the word 'Will' into RD> Hebrew characters while still using the English Vau-Yod- RD> Lamed-Lamed, would be WILL. I'm embarrassed to admit that RD> I don't know what 'Will' would be translated as in Hebrew RD> or Greek...though in Sanskrit, I'd tend to call it 'Dharma.' ;> [Rab responds:] BASIC & VITAL QUESTIONS ABOUT GEMATRIA I wonder if anyone out there knows the logic, if any, behind the various gematric systems, specifically, why letters of alphabets are correlated with certain numbers? Surely it is not enough to say that the numbers simply follow the sequence of letters in an alphabet, even though this seems to work to some extent for some systems. Why, in the first place, then, were the letters of an alphabet arranged in a particular sequence? What natural or cosmic laws does the sequence reflect? Most alphabetic orders, like our Anglo-Roman, are strongly influenced by the original alphabet, devised by the Northern Semitic peoples around 1700 BC, from which the Hebrew derives. The order of letters in the old Hebrew aleph-beth, virtually identical to the original, seems to follow an eminently logical sequence, based on phonetic principles. This becomes evident if you arrange the alphabet in a circle of 22 equally spaced letters and start looking for phonetic relationships. For example, two labials, beth & mem are opposite each other; two alveolars, daleth & samekh, are opposite; two gutterals (or at least 'back-of-the-throaters'), heh & oyen, are opposites; and so on. Further analysis will reveal that each axis combines with another axis of similar phonetic value to form a very interesting pattern, perhaps correlating with the primal elements of fire, earth, water, air, plus a 5th which could be ether or space, and a central axis (involving aleph) which could be spirit or mind. All of which indicates that some pretty exact planning went into the ordering of letters in the oldest alphabet, and good reason for there to be a basis for developing a gematria that "worked" ... within the context of the language spoken at that time. One might suspect, however, that the power of this original gematria began to wane as the alphabet was adapted to other languages, (ie Phoenician, Greek, Roman, English). Just one letter added or dropped would have been sufficient to alter the original alphabetic sequence radically, but of course many letters were introduced or eliminated over the centuries. One wonders how any viable Greek gematria could possibly have developed. Yet, since it did, what of the original power was lost? Something must have gone missing, because a key connection, between symbol and reality (ie the human experience of articulating letter sounds), was severed. If this is so, then any gematria for the English alphabet based on blind imitation of the Hebrew must also be lacking. Not only because our letter sequence is different, but also because English is an entirely different language, with its own underlying phonetic patterns. We need to uncover these and develop our own gematria, rooted thoroughly in our own experience of sound, symbol, and cosmos. Remarkably, however, the alphabet we now use, despite all the 'arbitrary' changes that it has undergone over the centuries, does seem to have settled into a hidden phonetic order. If we can see it, and figure out its implications, I think our new gematria will be revealed. First, note the placement of vowels, separated by 3 3 5 5 5 consonants. And that all labials immediately follow vowels: aB eF oP uV/W. Consider then the positions of dentals, alveolars, palatals, velars, and perhaps 'semi-vowels' or 'semi-consonants'. And maybe why certain Sanskrit seed syllables for the elements (HAM YAM RAM LAM WAM) all begin with them. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rab Area: MagickNet To: Rose Dawn 20 Nov 94 02:55:02 Subject: Re: CHAOS UpdReq -=> Quoting Rose Dawn to Rab <=- R> The Pope has said that the BVM (Mary) is indeed the most easily accessed R> figure, and has a special relationship with the faithful masses. RD> Most interesting! Did the Pope speculate on why this might be so? Kind RD> of a universal Mother thang? I think you've got the drift of it allright. RD> If this is the reasoning, it'd seem RD> a bit odd that YHVH--as far as I know--has *never* RD> appeared to faithful masses; wouldn't God-the-Father be RD> just as likely to want to interact with his children as RD> Mary-the-Mother? Have you heard of any reports of the Holy RD> Spirit appearing visibly in some shape or form; or has it RD> traditionally been more of a _sakthipat_ kind of RD> experience, ie, the descent of power as inner experience? Well, the Father & Holy Spirit are regarded as quite different aspects of the Divine reality ... from what I gather. Not to mention, the Son aspect. I've come across accounts about experiences of Spirit & Son, the former being as you say more energy or power, the latter often appearing in the form of Jesus. But modern accounts about God appearing do seem rare. Although His voice does seem to manifest to some. In the psyche of most Christians, the Father is a rather distant archetype. RD> Has there been Speculation from on High about this kinda RD> phenomena? Hmmm...it *might* make sense to say that RD> because God and Jesus are actually Divine, whereas Mary is RD> entirely human, albeit 'Blessed,' that she's more likely RD> to interact directly with other human beings Precisely. RD> from what little I know, it seems that apparitions of human RD> 'Saints' are much more frequently feminine than masculine, RD> and the saints are also human-though-blessed. Hmm. I don't have that impression. If you talk to, or read about, people in countries where Catholicism/spiritism is strong, such as in Latin America, visions of male saints seem just as frequent, though Mary has had a habit of founding major churches & shrines. R> Could be dangerous. It's okay for a bunch of people to R> see a vision, (safety in numbers), but a lone vision can be suspect. R> The individual might be going mad! RD> Heh. Yet some of the lone visionaries are transformed into RD> saints, and then get to appear to the faithful RD> themselves...divine madness vs. garden-variety madness, RD> perhaps? ;> I wonder how the delineation is made? Catholics have special committees to figure that out. But really, the only difference has to do with ego-strength, psychic maturity, and overall balance in the being. Weak ego + big jolt = fried egg. R> Jesus=Self/Individuation; Mary=Soul/Socialisation. RD> Aha! ;> Y'know, I think I *almost* 'get' it. By Jove, I think you do. Follow through. Bring the feather right down. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rab Area: MagickNet To: Josh Norton 20 Nov 94 03:23:04 Subject: Re: Russia UpdReq -=> Quoting Josh Norton to Rab <=- JN> Heh. True. I'm wondering when someone's going to start working on JN> Russian mythology -- now that's REALLY depressing! R> I don't know much Russian myth, but certain aspects have inspired artists R> before (e.g. Stravinsky & The Firebird). JN> I was thinking more along the lines of Baba Yaga, or what's-his-name JN> -- the spirit who kidnapped beautiful princesses to torment. To be sure, they have their share of heavies. R> And as far as non-Slavic Russian myth goes, there's the R> original Siberian shamanism, some of which has found its way into R> AmerIndian traditions, most noticeably in the far northwest. (Some would R> say ALL New World aboriginal traditions derive from Siberia). So perhaps to some extent R> anyone who works with AmerIndian myth is also dealing with Russian. R> At least some deep links do exist. JN> Given that most of the migration was 10,000-20,000 years ago, it'd JN> have to be a REALLY deep link. Except perhaps in the case of the JN> Inuits, who've been floating around the Arctic Circle without much JN> respect for lines on the maps. Most migration? Maybe. Quantity-wise. But the barrier between Asia & N. America has always been permeable to influences. There's a coastal tradition around Vancouver Is. of ancient navigational song that when sung correctly over a period of months will guide the canoeist up to Alaska and around towards Japan, then back. Also, when Native weavers of Chilkat blankets went to visit New Zealand, they discovered Maoris used similar techniques & motifs. Etc. JN> Hmmm. I recall theories a few years ago that a fleet of Chinese JN> exploratory vessels got marooned on the west coast, and left some JN> marks of their culture in the local tribes. But those were supposed to JN> be from a century or two later than Khan. As a matter of recent fact, at the 1994 American Anthropologists convention it was announced that evidence of Chinese in Mexico had been finally accepted as reliable. Getting a bit off track here, but some years ago an archeologist found evidence of an Egyptian visit to California, circa 1400 BC. Found a buried lapis lazuli seal, with hieroglyphs & all, near Mt. Palomar. Main point: people have been travelling great distances for a very long time, and not always leaving traces. What we do eventually discover is likely just the tip of the proverbial iceberg. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rab Area: MagickNet To: Josh Norton 20 Nov 94 03:32:06 Subject: Re: Chaos UpdReq -=> Quoting Josh Norton to Rab <=- R> But if one were picking up an event in process of manifesting, i.e. that R> has not yet happened, the message would be about a trend or probability. R> The trend is subject to modification and the exact form of R> its concretisation may be R> may be unforeseeable. (As TS Eliot said, betwixt thought and act falls the R> shadow). Some impulses do, however, ultimately manifest as intended, so R> some predictions can be accurate. Especially if these same predictions (or R> the predictor) assist the outcome. JN> I'm not sure how your comment bears on mine -- maybe I'm a bit fuzzy JN> today. Are you agreeing with me, disagreeing, or expanding on it? Just musing, I guess. It WAS late. JN> If I may speak cabalistically, I'd say that anything that gets down as JN> far as Netzach is "real" and "concrete" in some sense. Certainly JN> anything that reaches the intellectual level of Hod is. Much of my own JN> work has focused on such manifestations, with the eventual physical JN> manifestation -- e.g., an article or paper -- being no more than an JN> anchor. Indeed. You have expressed in words, more or less, what I was thinking wordlessly at the time I wrote, but refrained from expressing. Due to depletion of will 8:-) ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: MagickNet To: Kai Mactane 21 Nov 94 09:08:46 Subject: Re: CHAOS, REPLY PART II UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. > I was contrasting with learning it for the Art. What I was trying > to say was that, normally, if you're going to learn a martial art, you > should be in it for the Art. If, however, you're already getting > your Art elsewhere (say, through CM, or Christian mysticism, or > whatever floats your boat), then it is reasonable to pursue a > martial art solely for its physical benefits and skills. Interesting...do you think there are many students in American dojos these days actually learning for the Art? Wonder if it even matters--I started practicing hatha yoga strictly for the physical benefits, and got pulled deeper. Some people never do. If something's gonna 'catch' you your original motives for starting up with that something probably don't make any real difference. > I see the Art in martial arts as being close enough to the > Great Work (even if only on an individual level) to make > simultaneous study in the spiritual aspects of both martial arts and > CM (or whatever...) redundant. Hmmm...from personal experience I would disagree. Yoga practice has helped me with my C.M. work immensely, and I know it has with many other people as well. A Thelemite I know has pursued studies in several different styles of martial arts, and has begun studying yoga recently as well. Possibly using several different types of 'Art'...and 'Science' too!...can lead people to deeper understanding of themselves, develop varied areas of skills, etc., that would also make one a 'better' magician. > Neither do I. I think I said somewhere that I was using the > popular conception, but I might have left it out. It's certainly possible that you did say that, and I missed it. It's one of my personal 'buttons.' :/ I'm sure it's a comfort to think of people getting what they deserve, in this or some other lifetime, for better or worse; just as I'm sure the ideas of heaven and hell are a comfort for people who think they're being treated unfairly right here, right now. But giving up reliance on that type of comfort is IMHO, the quickest way to true *freedom*. Also, I don't hear the people who holler the loudest about 'karmic repurcussions' mention _dharma_ very often. Dharma requires action, work, thought, and commitment, while the popular def' of karma is more passive. Sometimes I think people are just lazy. > Yes. I think that, *if* it exists (which I'm not sure it does), > it's a totally impersonal, non-moral (pre-moral?) force, much like > Newton's Third Law of Motion. Well, it exists, in the original meaning of the word; that's obvious. If I act, my actions affect other people, and they re-act. That's all the law of karma really means, though it sounds overly simplistic for most peoples' tastes. Results and intentions don't really even come into play. If one is not a sociopath, the psychological & emotional effects of one's actions are likely to have subtle or profound 'inner consequences' at least eventually. But that's not 'karma,' _per se_. I don't like the idea of people tolerating things they *shouldn't* tolerate because they believe in karmic return, or being paralyzed into total inaction because they fear retribution for some small, unintentional magical or mundane 'mistake.' I think we should all get on with the business of living! But then, I'm an opinionated bitch and really don't know much about anything, so ignore me if it is your Will. ;> Love is the law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: MagickNet To: Joseph Max 22 Nov 94 12:15:02 Subject: Chaos 1/ UpdReq Hi Joseph! I had a much longer reply written, and realized that most of it dealt with side-issues. I've chopped it down to what I think is the real core. And it's still too long! JM> If there's anything Magickal to astrology at all (according to the AIT JM> model) then it has to do with the psychic "field" being set up by all of the JM> believers in astrology around the earth exerting a morphic effect on our JM> consentual reality; "self-fullfilling" prophecy prophecy, if you can JM> appreciate the multi-leveled metaphor at work here . ARRRGGGHHH!!! IOW, the effects are there because people believe effects are there. And why do people believe the effects are there? Because they see the effects! Just a bit circular, don't you think? If we follow your reasoning, then at some point in the past some one person _decided_ entirely without evidence that there _should_ be astrological effects, and his belief was so strong that they came into being for everybody else as well, and have been self-sustaining ever since. Why is it so much easier for you to believe this than believing in some continuing, natural connection? JM> My theory is attempting to JM> explain phenomena that fall _outside_ causality, so causality doesn't enter JM> into it. That's the problem that the "energy" theory of magickal action-at- JM> a-distance has -- it's trying to build a case for "cause-and-effect" using JM> the model of energy transmission, but positing an "energy" that doesn't JM> _behave_ like energy. Aetheric transmission steps outside causality to JM> constuct it's model, just like quantum theory steps outside classical JM> physics to describe behavior of sub-atomic particles that classical physics JM> doesn't even mention. This is not a contradiction. Using an energy model JM> _is_. A transmittal of "non-energetic" information which produces a change at its reception point -- which is what you are proposing -- is _not_ a cause-and-effect relationship? I get the feeling that your definition of causality is flawed in some way. Only one of your previous messages is still on my database, and the few examples you give there don't seem to me to be necessarily acausal in nature. For instance, a two-way information flow doesn't necessarily imply a simultaneous, acausal flow; it could just simply be that the message-and-response time is quicker than our perceptions can handle, like the background handshaking on a net-connection. Care to give a few examples of what you believe to be truly acausal magickal phenomena? JM> There JM> was a marvelous article in Scientific American a few years back about how JM> this level of brain action could account for the very existence of JM> "creativity" and spontaneous thought processes that lead to "leaps of JM> intuition", because thought itself is a Quantum process and therefore JM> subject to the effects of Uncertainty. JM> Pretty groovy, eh? Yeah, I read that article too. AND the flood of counter-arguments from neurologists and neuro-psychologists. On the whole, I'd say the counter- arguers won that round. JM> I'm sometimes surprised at the amount of resistance I get from occultists JM> when I present these ideas. Most heavy physicist types that I throw these JM> ideas at end up going "Hmmm, maybe you've got something there..." I would JM> have thought that the Magickal types would be overjoyed and eager to adopt a JM> model that they can confidentely toss in the face of "scientific skeptics" JM> with a smile of satisfaction! It always amazes _me_ how resistant hard-science types are to astrology, even when the astrologers try to play by their rules. In one of his books, Steven Weinberg goes through some incredible mental acrobatics to avoid admitting that he is rejecting it without any basis for doing so; it's clear that his arguments seem weak even to him. Michel Gauquelin's work satisfies _every_ scientific standard for treatment of statistical data a hundred times over, but few will even look at it. Others have resorted to outright fraud to "prove" Gauquelin was wrong. I've offered a few (including Carl Sagan) a way that they could prove or disprove a relation between astrological configurations and personality, using already-existing data. Carl didn't answer; the arguments of the others amounted to "I'm too busy." or "Where would I get the funding?" None argued about the potential validity of the test, but nevertheless clung fanatically to their disbelief. As for why magickal types wouldn't want a "scientifically acceptable" theory of magick, I can imagine a lot reasons... ... They don't want to reduce a fulfilling personal adventure to a dry intellectual exercise, or allow intellectuals armed with such a theory to leach all the meaning out of their work. Science operates by excluding those aspects of events about which it can't be "objective"; and personalities attracted to science often have a compulsion to [ Continued In Next Message... ] ___ X SPEED 1.30 [NR] X 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: MagickNet To: Joseph Max 22 Nov 94 12:15:04 Subject: Chaos 2/ UpdReq [ ...Continued From Previous Message ] eliminate as invalid any viewpoints (except their own, of course) that aren't based on their limited intellectual criteria. And the farther they are from their area of expertise, the more they do it. There is no one more dangerous than a hard scientist with a social agenda. Our buddy Carl is a perfect example. ... They don't believe that science and/or scientists are capable of dealing with the important aspects of magick in any useful manner. ... They simply don't care if it gets proved or not; such proof is irrelevant to their view of the work. ... etc. JM> What I'm positing is a theory of magick that materialists cannot punch big, JM> gaping holes in. All it requires is that we rethink the ways in which it JM> _appears_ that magickal effects exert themselves and accept the idea the JM> subjective feelings of "ectoplasmic energy" and the like being transmitted JM> or recieved by the body of the magician are merely that - _subjective JM> feelings_, and owe their existence to the fact that the consciousness canno JM> interpret AIT directly, but rather "metaphorically". *** sigh*** And there you have an example of how the scientific view misses the point of magick, particularly of initiatory magick. There's nothing wrong with trying to come up with a "scientific" theory of how magick works. And I admit it may ultimately be useful in reducing opposition from an intransigent group. But in attempting to do so, you are reducing the most important part of it to a position of superficiality. Human subjectivity isn't a "mere" overlay on some physical or quasi- physical process. 99 percent of human existence -- including your own -- is made up of things that are entirely subjective. The shapes those experiences take, the meaning they have for the individuals experiencing them, the actions those meanings motivate people to perform, are the core of our lives. Even if -- as the materialists insist -- human consciousness derives entirely from physical processes, it is the subjectively-perceived reality that takes precedence. In terms of their effects on human life and society, these "merely subjective" things are ten thousand times MORE real than most scientific facts. Having a theory of information transfer doesn't tell us a thing about the content or meaning being transfered. Nor does it tell us much that is useful about how those things arise in the first place or what a conscious being should do with them. Maybe that's why folks aren't too enthusiastic about it. ___ X SPEED 1.30 [NR] X 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718