From: Josh Norton Area: MagickNet To: Rab 12 Nov 94 14:50:00 Subject: Tolkien UpdReq -=> Quoting Josh Norton to Rab <=- R> What you say is partly true. Such characters do have a culturally R> specific as well as a universal facet, but while one can on occasion access R> the universal through a character, one cannot sever the connection with its R> other side. If the relationship with said character is ongoing to any R> extent, one ends up sooner or later having to deal with both sides. R> Well, now....can't say I agree with that. I've been invoking Egyptian gods for decades now, and haven't seen a great deal that I would identify as being related to ancient Egypt's specific cultural limitations. If I haven't encountered them in that long a time, it seems doubtful to me that I ever will. OTOH, I _do_ get such cultural elements with some of the Babylonian gods, but the content of the results makes me attribute that to either (a) "past life" connections with that culture, or (b) strong resonance between that culture and my current personality, or both. R> Your experiences of accessing an essential "power" directly through a symbol R> (or character) do not exclude the possibility of an ambient power, built up R> through use or its actions through time. Recall "Power & R> Glory". The Glory is R> the ambience. And of course a power may have relatively little glory. Since you can't prove a negative, all I can say is that I don't see it. ___ X SPEED 1.30 [NR] X 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: MagickNet To: Rose Dawn 12 Nov 94 15:45:02 Subject: Chaos 1/ UpdReq RD> Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. RD> Hi! RD> RD> Been wishing one could copyright one's name/bbs handle recently--apparently RD> some ripoff Noo Age group is sending out come-on notices RD> signed by some apocryphal broad by the name 'Rose Dawn.' RD> Someone local received one, and asked if it was me . I can understand that...I wonder quite often when some new discordian convert is going to try grabbing my handle. > I did think about Sam as Horus...might fit. I recall one toon where he > was a knight going after dragons -- the lance is one of Horus' weapons, > and dragons are Set-beasts, if anything is. RD> RD> Sam *could* be spelled Samekh-Yod-Mem-final, which would RD> give 71, meaning Thy Terror and Silence, Vision, RD> Plenitude, and a Dove. What meaneth this? Uhm...ya got me, RD> but it sounds interesting. I flunked Gematria though. Err...with that spelling, actually it adds to either 110 or 670, depending on whether you use the final value. But those don't give anything better. Samek-Aleph-Mem would be 101 or 661. 101 is the numeration of MIKAL, sword-carrying archangel of Sol and of Fire. Which fits pretty well with a solar-martial deity whose nature is "force and fire". RD> Ever RD> since Larry, waaaay back when, mentioned seeing Ra-Hoor- RD> Khuit as a schoolyard bully, I've kind of associated RHK RD> with that Rooster dude--can't think of his name at the RD> moment. Foghorn Leghorn. To me, Horus is the Ultimate Jock, associated with various stupid and violence-prone Jock-ocracies throughout history. E.g., Egyptian warrior- priests, medieval knights, latino military governments and "maximum rulers", etc., ad nauseam. > fact! ) But I still wonder about the effect of substituting "Satan" > for Iaida, etc. The entities seem to have a strong connection to their > creator, and attributing their existence to a Christian demon might tend > to annoy them, I'm thinking. Or, they might just decide that the > magician is invoking some other group of beings, and not bother > answering. RD> RD> Hmmm...they didn't seem to mind when Dee & Kelly attributed RD> their existence to a Christian *god* though! Nor, to my RD> admittedly VERY limited understanding, do they seem to RD> mind when lots of modern magicians attribute their RD> existence to deeper recesses of the individual mind. But in neither of those cases were the magicians changing the Calls themselves, from which the power is generated. .pg [ Continued In Next Message... ] ___ X SPEED 1.30 [NR] X 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: MagickNet To: Rose Dawn 12 Nov 94 15:45:04 Subject: Chaos 2/ UpdReq [ ...Continued From Previous Message ] > [re: enochian as a meta-pattern] > No, sorry. It's still in an embryonic stage. And it may be one of those > things I'm never going to solve, like the "true" attributes of the > enochian letters. Seems to me that getting a good perspective on the > meta-schema would be equivalent to becoming one with the Enochian god. > And while he's popped up occasionally, I've never had any success > invoking him for my own purposes. RD> RD> Is it one of those 'draw your own Conclusion' thangz then? More like I'm not sure the answer will fit into this poor brain of mine. But there's been suggestions of this possibility in my enochian works practically from the point where I first got serious about it. RD> LOL. does there seem to be any recognizable pattern to the RD> Enochian god's popping up? Or does it appear to be RD> arbitrary, or along some pattern that you can't grasp? just being nozy again.> Hadn't thought about it, actually. Let me ponder aloud for a moment... You know the kinds of complex visualizations I use for my major workings. It's only happened when I was using one of my Enochian Temples, or the circular pattern of the "Comselha" working I described in the Enochian echo last year. Apparently he requires a fairly complete pattern of energies to be present. I.e., the Temples use all the powers from a single Tablet, while the Comselha pattern uses all the macrocosmic powers from all the Tablets. And the patterns had to be REALLY charged up before it happened. Every time he showed up, it was a complete surprise; and a definite discontinuity in the process in progress, a sudden "jump" to a higher level. As far as content goes, in about half the cases it concerned my using the system to create links to extra-terrestrial magickal schemes. Which would tend to confirm my thought about it being a meta-pattern, wouldn't it? In one case he "raised me up" into a meta-temple that seemed to have been formed by a reversal of the usual magickal creative process. That is, my creation of the Temples as real magickal constructs in some way _forced_ the creation of an "archetypal" Temple on a higher level. In another case it was to acknowledge the new system of attributes I discovered for the squares of the Tablets, and to tell me something I still don't entirely understand: that the Comselha working had given the enochian angels a "different sort of reality" than they had previously possessed. Aha! That's the pattern! (image of light bulb going on) Each time he appeared, it was immediately after I had successfully extended the enochian system beyond its original parameters, or transformed it in some way that existed only in potential in the original system. And it didn't happen when I first perceived the possibility, or when I wrote about it, but only after I had "made it real" through hard work. So I guess you could say that the Enochian god likes creativity, actively expressed. Moral: be a creative magician. ___ X SPEED 1.30 [NR] X 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: MagickNet To: Kai Mactane 13 Nov 94 00:00:06 Subject: tolkien UpdReq Hi Kai! KM> JN> Hmmm. I can't recall how much Tolkein drew on previous mythologies -- JN> it's been 20 years since I took a course on his stuff. KM> KM> Quite a bit, according to Lin Carter. I can post up KM> some bits from an essay he wrote on it, if you like. No need. I'm sure I'll encounter it somewhere along the way. KM> He also snagged a bunch of ideas out of James Branch KM> Cabell, an early fantasist who had *also* done a pile of KM> research into old myths. Out of Cabell??!?!? That's mind-boggling. His borrowing must have been fairly subtle. I can't see any "Ring" characters that would match, e.g., Kotschei. Unless there's some connection between Cabell's bumbling heroes and the hobbits? R> Perhaps not so much the "amount" as the "quality"? JN> Well, I did pretty well with Bugs Bunny. More recently with Kimball JN> and Clarissa Kinnison (characters in a series of pulp-era science JN> fiction novels). What quality of worship, if any, do they have? KM> I'm not sure how in the world you'd measure "quality KM> of worship" in the first place -- is snake handling better KM> or worse than quiet prayer? -- but I recognize names out of KM> the Lensman series. KM> You've been invoking them? And it's been working? KM> Could you please give me more details? It's been a couple of years now. I do that sort of thing when I feel that something really off-the-wall is required to get me out of a rut. But yes, it worked. I usually think of the four second-stage Lensmen and Clarissa as points of an inverted pentagram, with the following attributes: Nadrek = Earth Tregonsee = Water Worsel = Air Kinnison = Fire Clarissa = Spirit or, perhaps, prana as Life-force. (The Children of the Lens are the corresponding upright pentagram.) But in the invocations I did, Kimball and Clarissa came of more as the male and female aspects of the Primordial Adam. Both of them powerfully Solar in nature, but with sub-accents from the other planets: Kinninson having Saturn, Mars, and Mercury accents, and Clarissa having Lunar, Venusian, and Jupiterian accents. As if they sliced the Solar Hexagram down the middle instead of separating it into two triangles. Can't say much more than that without the records, which got trashed when my disk controller crashed last year. ___ X SPEED 1.30 [NR] X 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: MagickNet To: All 12 Nov 94 20:37:18 Subject: Interview with the Vampire UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Two words for anyone debating whether to believe the reviewers or not: SEE IT !!! Love is the law, love under will. - Christeos Pir ... In the name of the Lord of Initiation, Amen. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: MagickNet To: Josh Norton 13 Nov 94 11:50:22 Subject: Tolkien UpdReq -=> Josh Norton sent a message to Christeos Pir on 11 Nov 94 00:00:02 <=- -=> Re: Tolkien <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. JN> Heh. Aside from Quetzalcoatl (whom they inherited from the Toltecs) JN> are there ANY Aztec gods that aren't bloody-minded bastards? JN> Good riddance, as far as I'm concerned. What! How DARE you criticise the noble savage?! };-> Actually, they did have some milder-mannered gods and goddesses, but ultimately it's a question of a different world-view. To the Aztecs, the Gods _needed_ blood else they'd grow anemic themselves, and fade away. The flower on a saguaro was no less, or more, beautiful than the battlefield. The only thing one could really sacrifice was the flesh and blood; not only other's (we all know they did plenty of that), but also one's own: they took 'mortification of the body' to great heights, drawing a rope twisted with thorns through a hole in the tongue, etc. There's some evidence that the Sun Dance of the Plains nations came from Mesoamerica. But it was a bloodthirsty age: keep in mind what conditions were like in the rest of the world at the time, from the pogroms and the Inquisition in Europe, to the Crusades, to the Mongols (who were known to take apart entire cities, stone by stone, and sow the fields with salt so nothing would grow -- all for an insult to a messenger). Love is the law, love under will. - CP ... they rule their way like mighty conquerors. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: MagickNet To: Rose Dawn 13 Nov 94 12:26:08 Subject: Re: CHAOS UpdReq -=> Rose Dawn sent a message to Josh Norton on 10 Nov 94 08:50:51 <=- -=> Re: Re: CHAOS <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. RD> prophet-for-profit biz, I could come up with something a bit more RD> innovative than "Send Money--Get Bliss!" ::snicker:: [knockknockknock] "Whaddaya want?" "I want to get f*cked!" "OK, slide $50 under the door." . . . [knockknockknock] "Now what?" "I told you, I want to get f*cked!" "What, again!?" RD> Sam *could* be spelled Samekh-Yod-Mem-final, which would give 71, Samekh-Yod-Mem final would be 670. Samekh-Yod-Mem is 110. I presume you meant Aleph for Yod, which would give 661 and 101, respectively.(No wonder you hate this! ) Note that Samekh-Vav-Mem final = 666 ... God as the great "I am." (Sum is latin for "I am.") Love is the law (Law = Legis = Lamed-Gimel-Samekh = 93), love under will (Will = Vav-Yod-Lamed-Lamed = 73 = Chokhmah) - V - ... All corpses are sacred unto me; 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718