From: Rose Dawn Area: MagickNet To: Kai Mactane 9 Nov 94 09:23:00 Subject: Re: CHAOS UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Howdy KMac! > I see you haven't yet heard about the "Klingon Wicca/Trekkiolatry" > thread that recently incandesced its way from one end of the _Wicca_ echo Eep! No, I don't read the _Wicca_ echo...I regularly scan the _Witchcraft_ echo, which Julia Phillips moderates, and haven't seen anything like that there. ;> > to the other. I'm still a little unclear on whether people were proposing > reconstructing Klingon religion (from *what*, I have no idea), worshipping > Klingon deities in a Wiccan framework (again, where they'd get the Klingon > deities I have no idea, since no Star Trek series or movie has given us > jack to go on in terms of what Klingon religion is like), > worshipping human deities while dressed as Klingons, or actually > worshipping the Klingons themselves. In fact, I'm not entirely sure > the pro-Klingon side was sure what they were proposing. ROTFL! Alla de above, maybe? I do recall, though, a ST:TNG episode where Worf makes a magical retirement of sorts to seek out his spiritual roots, and meets a sort of Klingon Messiah/Hero...Kailass or something I believe, and again where he goes searching for his father and stumbles onto a former prison camp where Romulans & Klingons mix freely and attempts to teach the Klingon kidz their True Heritage . Kinda sparse on details as far as fictional reconstruction goes, though, so I don't know how valuable it'd be for 'Klingon Wicca' practice. Y'know, I *do* seem to remember, long ago and far away, either in WICCA or PAGAN, some discussion of using the techniques of 'Vulcan mysticism' as manifested in that Star Trek movie where Spock was resurrected ritually, but no details linger in ye olde sizzled synapses. Being a true devotee of trash culture, I must admit that the idea of Klingon Sex Magick sounds like it might be purdy intriguing. ;> But since Christeos Pir is a pal of mine, let's not bring it up in the Sex Magick echo. ==:o >RD> nuance, every word, every gesture, has been committed to >RD> memory... > > Aside from the practical considerations, that level of > over-analysis tends to pretty well kill the ritual for its > performer(s). It becomes sterile, barren and dead. I dunno, because I've never actually been able to learn a ritual that thoroughly before jumping in...would seem eminently possible! In all honesty, the reason I don't memorize that thoroughly is simply because I haven't been able to...practicing ritual with script in hand or *at* hand is what makes it 'stick' for me, rather than trying to commit words on paper to my tired brain cells, so that's the way I do it. ;> Love is the law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: MagickNet To: Kai Mactane 9 Nov 94 09:55:16 Subject: Re: CHAOS, REPLY PART II UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. > If you are learning the Art for spiritual purposes, then part > of the point is *control*. If your reflexes will go off and put > someone through a wall for saying "boo!", you're _not_ in control. > If you are learning the art for self-defense (which makes sense in > today's society, especially for those who follow spiritual avenues > elsewhere), then some measure of control is still called for, though > more physical and less mental. Psychotic reactions are still not > "control." Also, you still have to live life in a civilized society, > where such reactions could endanger your friends, relatives, and > strangers in your vicinity. This is irresponsible. I would agree. Seems to me that, where self-defense is concerned, being able to pick up on real threats and 'screen out' minor annoyances would be an *extremely* important part of one's training. As I said, I'm not a martial artist, but I *am* a Second Amendment Absolutist and owner of several guns. If I popped off at every jerk who pissed me off, or started firing rounds every time I heard a noise at the window, I'm sure I'd have been incarcerated long ago. I'd say *any* kind of instinctive explosive reaction, even purely verbal, is an obviously imbalanced reaction that needs to be worked on. I'm interested in your statement that self-defense is sensible in today's society 'especially for those who follow spiritual avenues elsewhere.' I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, would you care to expound a bit further? > If you're learning the physical moves because you expect to > have to go on raids deep into enemy territory and you don't plan on > ever rejoining civilian life, *then* such training might make sense. > Of course, I notice that your phrasing about this guy suggests > that these weren't even trained reflexes, but rather personal > choices. More on that later. Wolf is a *lot* older than I am, and that's pretty much the way he did it in Viet Nam. Fortunately, but unfortunate in a way, he *did* end up rejoining civilian life, and it's been rough going, and still is, nearly 30 years later. The sensei in question is a punk , who once confessed to Wolf that he had an 'inferiority complex' because he was 'too young for Viet Nam.' Had a bumper sticker on his pickup that said "I'd rather be killing Commies in Central America." To me, he pretty much epitomizes one of the 'low men' that the rest of us get to trample. ;> > Most certainly; I suspect the only help would have lain in therapy > (or a sensei so involved and compassionate as to qualify as a > therapist!). Another friend--well, *a friend*, as I consider the first dude a bothersome acquaintance--trained in a style I believe is called 'Go Jo Ryu' or something, for 18 years, while serving a life sentence in prison. From everything he has said about his own sensei, the guy meets the requirements above. Karateka #2 has specifically credited his Sensei with literally giving him back his life and all the good things that are now in it. Guy #2 was my daughter's instructor for a while, and since she is without question *the* most precious being in my personal universe, my respect and affection for the dude should be obvious. FWIW, I've never seen him pop off at anyone behind some minor irritation, which Dude #1 does all the time. The prison sensei musta been some kinda Man! > -=BUT=-, I think the teacher *absolutely* does take karmic return > for _having_taught_that_student_. If a student comes in and starts asking > me how to cast specific love spells, because he says it would be really > fun to be able to make any woman want to sleep with him, I'm not going to > teach that guy! If a guy shows himself to use his martial arts > knowledge to > beat up his girlfriends, intimidate the weak and oppress the > helpless, no decent sensei -- hell, no decent *human being* -- > should continue to teach this guy any arts of violence. Let him > learn /ikebana/, instead! I don't subscribe to the popular idea of 'karma' as a sort of cosmic equallizer. The word means, simply 'action.' There is an implication of 'reaction' contained therein, but no sort of value judgment...just means if we do things, others will react. It may be that one day the punk karateka will meet his match--would be nice!--and the 'reaction' will humble him, humiliate him, leave him in the hospital, etc. It may also be that people will fear and even respect him, which could be seen as 'good karma'...the senseis who instructed the guy might get a rep as turning out hostile students and lose other potential students behind it...or they might get a rep as being able to train really good fighters who won't put up with any bs, and experience a huge increase in business. Or maybe nothing will happen at all. What is _ikebana_? ;> Love is the law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: MagickNet To: Josh Norton 9 Nov 94 10:04:08 Subject: Re: CHAOS UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. > I don't mind. The only problem I can think of is that someone reading > them will get to the end of what's been done so far, and start wondering > where the rest of it is. Kind of like reading the first installment of a > story in an SF magazine, and being unable to find the conclusion. Maybe you could put "Continued Next Vision" at the end of all your files? ;> If you get in a mood, you could try "continued Next Incarnation"...or "if you want to know more, get off yer dead butt and Continue yerself!" Kind of literally 'drawing one's own Conclusions.' Anyway, thanks...I'll try the FReq-thang! :> Love is the law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Cijan Nee Grania Area: MagickNet To: Kai Mactane 9 Nov 94 08:39:00 Subject: universal laws? UpdReq -=> Quoting Kai Mactane to Cijan Nee Grania <=- KM> No, I'm just wondering where you got the M.A. Is it from JFK KM> University, or did you do some kind of Design-Your-Own-Study program KM> somewhere else? Or has another university started a parapsych program KM> and failed to notify me? :) If it's from JFK, what's the place KM> like? I understand it's very young, and know it's located a little KM> inland from San Francisco, but otherwise am clueless. Fill me in? Oxford University, College of Psy. In 1979 when I got it, Jeff Mishlove had just completed his disortation and was chairing the dept. I understand that he has since left and the whole thing has fallen apart. Not that there' much reconized use for it at the moment. "Ghost Busters" pretty much killed any chance of us being taken seriously for quite awhile. Cijan ... Every fish needs a bicycle. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: JOSEPH MAX Area: MagickNet To: JOSH NORTON 8 Nov 94 08:52:00 Subject: Re: CHAOS UpdReq -=> Quoting Josh Norton to Joseph Max <=- JN> While it's obvious to me that people are constantly picking up on JN> ideas floating around in the ether and making them their own, I don't JN> think that power as such has much to do with it. This is because it JN> happens as much with trivial fads as it does with seemingly powerful JN> symbols. Resonance between the idea and the individual's personality JN> and life- circumstances seems to be a stronger determinant. Mary is a JN> Big Mommy symbol, and as such appeals to the many whose "inner child" JN> still needs to feel the presence of such. JN> And if I recall correctly, some of the events on which the idea of JN> morphic fields is based didn't have anything at all to do with JN> emotionally-powerful symbols. E.g., the fact that rats learn mazes JN> much faster today than they did thirty years ago. And that experiment JN> in Europe where a test was broadcast in England one week and in other JN> countries later, and those taking the test later had more right JN> answers than those who took it first. In each of these cases, JN> information is being passed, but no real power. In a very real way, Josh, I think that information IS power. And I don't mean that in the political sense, but in the magickal. As I've said before, I'm an engineer, a scientist if you will, by profession. And I have a pragmatic, even skeptical turn of mind. I accept that there are certain laws that govern the workings of the physical universe that _cannot_ be circumvented without that physical universe unraveling; the speed of light, for example, or the Second Law of Thermodynamics. So the "energy" metaphor when used to describe the application of magickal power is, to me, severely problematic. I can't describe the theory of morphic fields in any way that defines such fields as being energy of any sort comparable with electromagnetic vibration. Every form of energy we have ever discovered or described follows certain restrictions on it's function. It cannot be destroyed _or_ created, only converted from one form or another. It follows time/distance formulae, such as the inverse square law. To describe magickal power in terms of energy is to ascribe this energy the ability to assume any property and change property without restriction. However, I perform Tarot readings that divine future events with (if I may be allowed some immodesty) uncanny accuracy. It would be easy to imagine that I am sensing "energy patterns" to accomplish this feat, but if so, then said energy patterns must be travelling _backwards in time_, or in effect, faster than the speed of light. I am convinced that no form of energy can do this. So what, then, is doing this travelling? My answer: pure information. My magickal theory holds that pure information can be exchanged between monadic entities as speeds that circumvent the speed of light, and in so doing, circumvent both space _and_ time constraints. There is even a theoretical basis for this that has been demonstrated experimentally: Bell's Theorem, the refutation of Einstien/Rosen thought experiment. J.S. Bell proved in 1973 that twin pairs of subatomic particles can, and _do_ exchange information about each other _and act on it_ at speeds that circumvent the speed of light. (Appearently at the speed of Planck's Constant, or 6 x 10E-43 seconds, regardless of distance.) I think this mechanism adequately accounts for the effects you describe above, and most other forms of effects magic i.e. spellcasting and divination, as well as phenomenae like hauntings, telemetrics and even the "Hundredth Monkey Effect" without the need for tossing out the laws of physics. I like that. JN> ___ JN> X SPEED 1.30 [NR] X JN> -!- Courtesy of Silver Xpress JN> ! Origin: Access! Information Services --> PODNet (93:9000/2) JN> @PATH: 9000/2 9600/0 ... ...Yes, but you are taking the universe out of context! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Samuel Wagar Area: MagickNet To: Josh Restivo 9 Nov 94 13:08:00 Subject: Seeking Info... UpdReq JR>far as adress or ANYTHING) for the Temple of Set. I have some info on them Go to the library and look up The Encyclopedia of American Religions, edited by Gordon Melton. It had addresses of a couple thousand religious groups as well as history and origins and a brief summary of beliefs and practices of all of them, organized into "families" of religions - wonderful resource! * SLMR 2.0 * power corrupts. absolute power is kind of neat. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Melanie Byas Area: MagickNet To: All 31 Oct 94 00:01:00 Subject: Sandiego.ans UpdReq This message was from RINA MAAS to ALL ------------------------- [ANSIART] [40m[2J[40m [2H [0;1;33m0Ooo.....[3H[40C.....ooO0 [4H[6C[45m [40m [20C[41m [40m[s [u[41m [31;40m[5H [0;36m[40m[s [u[1;35;45m[0;36;40m[s [u[1;31;41m [40m[6H [s [u[0;36m[1;35;45m[0;36;40m[s [u[1;31;41m [s [u[40m[7H [0;36m[1;35;45m Where in[40m[s [u[45m th[0;36;40me world is Carmen San[1;31;41mdiego[40m[s [u[41m? [40m[8H [0;36m[40m[s [u[1;35;45m[0;36;40m[s [u[1;31;41m [40m[9H [s [u[0;36m[1;35;45m[0;36;40m[s [u[1;31;41m [s [u[40m[10H[6C[45m [40m [20C[40m[s [u[41m [40m[11H[6C[45m [40m[s [u[45m [40m [20C[41m [40m[s [u[41m [40m[12H[6C[45m [40m[s [u[45m [40m [13H[6C[45m [35m [40m[s [u[45m [40m [0;36m [s [u [14H[6C[45m [1;35m [s [u[40m [0;36m [15H[s [u[6C[45m [1;35m [40m [0;36m [s [u [16H[6C[45m [1;35m[40m[s [u[45m [40m [0;36m [s [u [17H [1;33m [45m [40m[s [u[45m [40m [s [u [18H[45m [40m [s [u [40m[s [u[45m [40m [s [u [20H[7C[35m[s [u[30C[0;36mRina [1;33m [0;36mMaas 1994[21H[22H[0m --- * SLMR 2.1a * I busted him up. * Data * TriNet: TrekkerNet(tm) Pen and Brush, Springfield VA, (703) 644-6730/5196 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Melanie Byas Area: MagickNet To: All 3 Nov 94 23:12:00 Subject: Gotcha ! UpdReq This message was from GLEN CURTIS to ALL ------------------------- [ANSIART] [?7h[40m[2J[2;1H[3;1H[4;1H[36C[0;1;5m[19C[5;1H[32C[s [u [11C [6;1H[6C[14C[10C[8C[s [u[10C[7;1H [9C[11C[5C[0;1;34;43m[2C[40m[s [u[5;37;40m[6C[5C[0;1;34;43m[2C[5;37;40m[8;1H[s [u[14C[11C [0;1;34;43m[4C[2C[5;37;40m[6C [s [u[0;1;34;43m[4C[2C[5;37;40m[9;1H[13C[10C [s [u[0;1;34;43m[8C[1C[5;37;40m [0;1;34;43m[8C[40m[s [u[1C[5;37m[10;1H [12C[10C [0;1;34;43m[3C[40m[s [u[31;41m[2C[34;43m[2C[5;37;40m [0;1;34;43m[40m[s [u[3C[31;41m[2C[34;43m[2C[5;37;40m[11;1H [8C[s [u[11C [0;1;34;43m[2C[31;41m[34;44m[31;41m[1C[40m[s [u[34;43m[2C[5;37;40m [0;1;34;43m[2C[31;41m[40m[s [u[34;44m[31;41m[1C[34;43m[2C[5;37;40m[12;1H [5C[s [u [0;1;34;43m[3C[31;41m[2C[34;43m[40m[s [u[2C[5;37m [0;1;34;43m[3C[31;41m[2C[34;43m[40m[s [u[2C[5;37m[13;1H[5C [13C [0;1;34;43m[7C[40m[s [u[43m[3C[5;37;40m[0;1;31;41m[5;37;40m [0;1;34;43m[40m[s [u[43m[7C[3C[5;37;40m[14;1H[5C[16C [5C[s [u[0;1;34;43m[4C[4C[5;37;40m[0;1;31;41m[5;37;40m[5C[s [u[0;1;34;43m[4C[4C[5;37;40m[15;1H[7C[16C [6C[s [u[0;1;34;43m[5C[5;37;40m[0;1;31;41m[5;37;40m[6C[s [u[0;1;34;43m[5C[5;37;40m[16;1H[8C[13C [16C[s [u[0;1;31;41m[5;37;40m[16C[17;1H[9C[11C [12C[s [u[0;1;31;41m[5;37;40m[12C[18;1H[11C[10C[8C[s [u[6C[0;1;31;41m[5;37;40m[6C[19;1H[12C[s [u[14C[15C[20;1H[35C[0;31;45m[40m[s [u[1;35;41m[0;31;45m[21;1H[36C[40m[s [u[45m[1;35;41m[0;31;45m[22;1H[39C[40m[s [u[45m[23;1H[39C[2C[1;37;40m [s [u[0;31;45m[24;1H[40C[25;1H[1C[1;30;40mby Gl[A [6Cen Curtis 10/94[23C[0;31m[0m[255D --- * SLMR 2.1a * I failed organic chemistry because of A.F. * Picard * TriNet: TrekkerNet(tm) Pen and Brush, Springfield VA, (703) 644-6730/5196 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Melanie Byas Area: MagickNet To: All 7 Nov 94 23:43:00 Subject: Who knows? UpdReq This message was from MOLLIE CARSON-VOLLATH to ALL ------------------------- [0;30m11-5-94, "HARLEY.MCV", from memory and a VERY small picture....o well[A [18C[0;1;30m[29C[0m [15C[1;30m[5C[18C[0m [1;30m MOTOR [6C[0m [1;30m H A R L E Y D A V I D S O N [18C[0m [1;30m CYCLES [9C[0m[6C [15C[1;30m[7C[15C[0;31m[47m[40m[47m[5C[0m [17C[1;30m[13C[0;31m[9C[0m [34C[31m[12C[5C[0m [8C[10C[31m [0m [8C[9C[5C [8C [8C[9C[7C * [9C [8C[31m [0m [31m [A[69C[0m [5C[31m [0m [31m [A[66C [0m[15C [6C [5C[31m[5C [0m [31m [A[75C[0m[31m [0m [1;30m(c)94 mcv [0m [31m [A[56C [0m[7C [31m [0m [5C [31m [6C[0m [A[69C [5C [31m [0m [A[71C [5C [5C [10C [5C[5C [5C [36C [5C [5C [40C [9C[48C[0m --- * SLMR 2.1a * Jim... Your name is Jim. * Spock * TriNet: TrekkerNet(tm) Pen and Brush, Springfield VA, (703) 644-6730/5196 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rab Area: MagickNet To: Josh Norton 10 Nov 94 04:20:02 Subject: Re: Tolkien UpdReq -=> Quoting Josh Norton to Rab <=- R> The consensus is that Tolkien seems to have tuned into an ancient and R> forgotten, but distinct and still viable pantheon. JN> Hmmm. I can't recall how much Tolkein drew on previous mythologies -- JN> it's been 20 years since I took a course on his stuff. But I'm not JN> certain that it matters, anyway. My contention in the original JN> discussion was that all myths and stories (whether religious in origin JN> or not) are reflections of parts of human nature. And human nature, JN> according to tradition, is a reflection of the universe's nature. JN> Therefor any fictional character can serve as a means to contacting JN> the powers it reflects. Tolkien was thoroughly steeped in mythologies, particularly northern European. What you say is partly true. Such characters do have a culturally specific as well as a universal facet, but while one can on occasion access the universal through a character, one cannot sever the connection with its other side. If the relationship with said character is ongoing to any extent, one ends up sooner or later having to deal with both sides. JN> I really don't see that the power associated with a god-form -- or any JN> other symbol, for that matter -- has much at all to do with the amount JN> of worship it has had. R> Perhaps not so much the "amount" as the "quality"? JN> Well, I did pretty well with Bugs Bunny. More recently with Kimball JN> and Clarissa Kinnison (characters in a series of pulp-era science JN> fiction novels). What quality of worship, if any, do they have? JN> I confess that there's some instances in which I definitely hope the JN> "accumulated power" theory isn't correct. Don't think I'd care to have JN> a huge mass of Huitzilopoctli's power floating around, for instance. JN> Things could get nasty. Your experiences of accessing an essential "power" directly through a symbol (or character) do not exclude the possibility of an ambient power, built up through use or its actions through time. Recall "Power & Glory". The Glory is the ambience. And of course a power may have relatively little glory. At present you may have no need to bother with accumulated power, as you probe directly. Perhaps, if you began noticing it, you'd find it difficult or merely a distraction. But it is also possible that it could foul things up if you persisted in ignoring it. What makes you think that Huitzilopocti's power ISN'T floating around? But then there could also be some beneficial powers helping out as well. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: MagickNet To: Rab 10 Nov 94 12:57:00 Subject: Chaos UpdReq -=> Quoting Josh Norton to Rose Dawn <=- JN> Something about all that tragic noble JN> angst in Tolkein really drains me. Almost as much as M.Z. Bradley's JN> stuff. Rab> Quite so. What comes through Tolkien, and more lately through some R> British groups, has been subject to a strong (northern) European shaping. R> Certain karmic conditions, etc. I suspect that North Americans may be able R> to perceive a livelier, brighter side, particularly with Valar contacts. R> However, when working through racial karma, harrowing hell, one encounters R> much that can induce depression ... on either side of the Atlantic. Heh. True. I'm wondering when someone's going to start working on Russian mythology -- now that's REALLY depressing! ___ X SPEED 1.30 [NR] X 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: MagickNet To: Christeos Pir 11 Nov 94 00:00:02 Subject: Tolkien UpdReq -=> Josh Norton sent a message to Rab on 04 Nov 94 13:57:00 <=- -=> Re: Tolkien <=- CP> Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. JN> I confess that there's some instances in which I definitely hope the JN> "accumulated power" theory isn't correct. Don't think I'd care to have JN> a huge mass of Huitzilopoctli's power floating around, for instance. JN> Things could get nasty. CP> Not to mention Coatlicue, the Aztecs' answer to Kali; or Tlazolteotl, CP> "Eater of Filth," whose priests dressed in the untanned skins of their CP> sacrifices and smelled, so one priest claimed, "worse than a dead dog." Heh. Aside from Quetzalcoatl (whom they inherited from the Toltecs) are there ANY Aztec gods that aren't bloody-minded bastards? Good riddance, as far as I'm concerned. ___ X SPEED 1.30 [NR] X 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718