From:    Josh Norton                            Area: MagickNet
To:      Rose Dawn                               7 Nov 94 13:21:00
Subject: Chaos                                  UpdReq 

 > 
 > (confused) Eh?
RD>  
RD> Just a joke, son...I quoted something you'd said in another 
RD> context on a wholly different thread, but I thought it was 
RD> kinda germaine so I didn't ask if it was Ok first.
RD>  
Heh. Sure it's OK -- this is public discussion, ain't it? Don't think 
it's possible to copyright a net-message...
 > Elmer's a bit too anal-retentive for Horus, though his fondness for 
 > weapons might be Horus-like. More Osirian, maybe? He does represent 
 > Established Authority -- notice how often he shows up in the cartoons in 
 > uniforms?
RD>  
RD> Maybe Yosemite Sam as Horus?  Where do Coyote and Road 
RD> Runner fit in? I thought I remembered you discoursing most 
RD> learne'dly on that pair at one point. <Personally tho, I 
RD> always hated the RR...y'know, 'Beep-beep 
RD> *this*,mutha...!'>  ;>
RD>  
I seem to remember doing so, but my muse isn't with me today, and I 
can't recall what all I said. 
I did think about Sam as Horus...might fit. I recall one toon where he 
was a knight going after dragons -- the lance is one of Horus' weapons, 
and dragons are Set-beasts, if anything is.
Coyote and Roadrunner always remind me of Job, for some reason, with 
Coyote in the role of the long-suffering worshiper, and RR as the nasty- 
minded YHVH.
 > Well...The Church of Satan did use the Calls, but I don't know if they 
 > ever actually contacted the Enochian beings, or used the Tablets as part 
 > of a religious system. Does that count as "worship"? Given that they  
 > replaced the names of god with the word "Satan" in all the Calls, I 
 > doubt the contacts would have been very satisfactory.
RD>  
RD> I doubt that would count as worship...the CoS was pretty adamant about not 
RD> even 'worshipping' Satan, weren't they? D'you know if they 
RD> claimed to have any good results from the use of the 
RD> Calls?
I admit to total ignorance on this score.
RD> Hmmm...they didn't replace the names of the
RD> Enochian dudes with 'Satan' did they? If not, the contacts
RD> could've been satisfactory. Would be interesting to see
RD> what kind of schtuff was obtained. Aren't the Enochian
RD> entities pretty flexible about revealing themselves within
RD> the basic structure the magician best understands and is
RD> most experienced with?
RD>  
Welllll..... that's always been my contention. (Almost word-for-word, in 
fact! <G>) But I still wonder about the effect of substituting "Satan" 
for Iaida, etc. The entities seem to have a strong connection to their 
creator, and attributing their existence to a Christian demon might tend 
to annoy them, I'm thinking. Or, they might just decide that the 
magician is invoking some other group of beings, and not bother 
answering.
 > Earth. My current thought -- not yet fully developed -- is that they are 
 > a manifestation of some sort of meta-schema, of which the local schemas 
 > used on different worlds are particularizations.
RD>  
RD> Is there anyplace in your writings where you discourse on 
RD> this line of thought? <Anyplace available for download, 
No, sorry. It's still in an embryonic stage. And it may be one of those 
things I'm never going to solve, like the "true" attributes of the 
enochian letters. Seems to me that getting a good perspective on the 
meta-schema would be equivalent to becoming one with the Enochian god. 
And while he's popped up occasionally, I've never had any success 
invoking him for my own purposes.
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From:    Josh Norton                            Area: MagickNet
To:      Joseph Max                              8 Nov 94 00:00:02
Subject: Chaos                                  UpdReq 

Thus said Joseph Max to Rose Dawn concerning Chaos:
JM> As far as Josh's point about the Xtians combined morphic fields go, why do
JM> you think that you get thousands of Catholics seeing Virgin Mary 
appearences
JM> every year?
Ouch! Ya got me with that one. Should've thought of it -- there's an 
annual gathering looking for visions of her right down the road from 
here, though nobody's seen her there yet. And when I lived up near 
heavily Italian-Catholic Youngstown, there was a flurry of sightings of 
her in the rust-stains on various old water-towers.
But why Mary, who isn't even part of their trinity? And why don't 
magicians invoking Xtian symbols get that much power? If its dragging 
thousands of people around, there must be a hell of a lot of it. Why 
must it be spread among that many people instead of being concentrated?
(musing) Things could get really confusing if you start to think about 
it... E.g., is Mary a substitute and/or continuation of the force of the 
older pre-Xtian godesses, Ishtar, Inanna, Isis, etc? And what about 
those voudoun sects that believe that certain Xtian saints are really 
concealed versions of their own gods? 
While it's obvious to me that people are constantly picking up on ideas 
floating around in the ether and making them their own, I don't think 
that power as such has much to do with it. This is because it happens as 
much with trivial fads as it does with seemingly powerful symbols. 
Resonance between the idea and the individual's personality and life- 
circumstances seems to be a stronger determinant. Mary is a Big Mommy 
symbol, and as such appeals to the many whose "inner child" still needs 
to feel the presence of such.
And if I recall correctly, some of the events on which the idea of 
morphic fields is based didn't have anything at all to do with 
emotionally-powerful symbols. E.g., the fact that rats learn mazes much 
faster today than they did thirty years ago. And that experiment in 
Europe where a test was broadcast in England one week and in other 
countries later, and those taking the test later had more right answers 
than those who took it first. In each of these cases, information is 
being passed, but no real power.
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From:    Josh Norton                            Area: MagickNet
To:      Rose Dawn                               7 Nov 94 15:19:04
Subject: Chaos                                  UpdReq 

RD>  
RD> Forget the hardcopy idea...that'd cost a mint to mail! Is 
RD> it all available in the Arena's file section? If so, we 
RD> could just do a FReq, no? Unless Josh wants them kept out 
RD> of file areas for some reason, it'd be nice to have it 
RD> available here on the board as well.
RD>  
I don't mind. The only problem I can think of is that someone reading 
them will get to the end of what's been done so far, and start wondering 
where the rest of it is. Kind of like reading the first installment of a 
story in an SF magazine, and being unable to find the conclusion. 
___
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